[tromedlov87]

First off, hey all, I've been a lurker here for a while and very rarely post, but I just finished TCG for the first time, and the main thing on my mind right now is Tavore Paran. Now, I've seen several topics talking about her, mostly to do with her plans/how she got her knowledge, etc., but I hadn't seen a whole lot of discussion about her character in general, its motivations, feelings, etc., so I wanted to post what I came up with.

Warning: This involves a lot of heavy speculation and dot connecting on my part, and I'm doing this without really researching a lot of it. Basically this is from memory, so I apologize if some of this is vague or is flat-out wrong. I know this has problems with it, but it seems to overall make a lot of sense to me, and the more I think about it, the more I really like Tavore as a character. Also, it's a bit long. Anyway, here we go : )

To me, Tavore Paran is a very gifted person who happens to have some flaws. She's a military genius, she has a very keen mind, she is constantly researching and absorbing information, and is a very compassionate person. She really feels and cares deeply for the world around her and the people in her life, especially her family. However, I think that she's afraid of showing weakness; she feels she has to keep it all inside herself, and only show herself to the world as calm, collected, even cold. I think she also does this to try to avoid being hurt; being so compassionate and caring makes her vulnerable; she wants to shield herself from pain. So, growing up, this is how Ganoes sees her: Somewhat cold and distant, to the point that he focused more of his attention and love on their sister, Felisin. Since Tavore often played out battles with High Fists as a kid , I get the impression that the house of Paran was very important and, perhaps, very loyal to the empire/emperor.

Anyway, at the end of GotM, Adjunct Lorn dies, and it is assumed that Ganoes does as well. This news "Broke" Tavore's father, and shortly afterward (I think it was) both of her parents died. I think that these events really devastated Tavore; this is what she meant by "It all started when house Paran lost its only son". Her only family is now her sister, Felisin. Since the Adjunct was dead, a new one would be needed. For whatever reason, maybe because Tavore was known to be intelligent and a military genius, as well as from an important noble house, Tavore was in line to be the next Adjunct. Around this time, I think that Shadowthrone and Cotillion were gathering all of the pieces of their grand plan involving the Crippled God, and they knew that they would need someone in a position of power in the empire; someone who would be loyal to them, when necessary, who had a family history of being loyal to the empire and the emperor: Someone like Tavore, assuming she did become the next Adjunct (they would also have known about her intelligence and military thinking. Maybe they even knew they could play on her compassion to help the Crippled God). So they talked to Tavore, convinced her she could still serve the emperor, and serve a grand, noble cause. This gave Tavore, still devastated from the deaths in her family, something to strive for, to make a difference with, something to latch on to.

However, she knew that Laseen would have to trust her and believe in her loyalty in order to give her enough true power and command to be useful to Shad/Cot and their cause. I think this, maybe combined with some anger over having an argument with Felisin (I remember this being mentioned by Felisin, just not the details) led her to create her plan to have Felisin "culled" but watched over by Baudin in order to win Laseen's faith (and she would have known about Baudin due to her family's own connections with the talons of old, being loyal to the emperor).

So, she gets command of the Bonehunters and goes to hunt down Shai'ik. But she's still worried, and perhaps regretful, about what she did to Felisin, so she sends Pearl to find out what happened to her. Throughout House of Chains, her outer "armor" is breached several times. She learns that Ganoes is actually alive, which stuns her. By the end of the book, though, Gamut dies (who she really cared for, being a link to her family and her past; this is probably why she made him a fist and kept him close to her, she needed that connection). Then, she learns that Felisin is dead; her plan failed. She is again devastated; all she can do is put her faith in her loyalty to Shad/Cot and their cause and strengthen her emotional armor, her outer coldness. She still has T'Amber, though, her lover and one of her few private, emotional solaces.

Then, at the end of The Bonehunters, she loses T'Amber as well, and many people like Kalam died for her. She's lost almost everything, now, only Ganoes remains, but she doesn't even know where he is or what he's doing. All she can do is again strengthen her will to her cause and harden herself more, keeping her compassion and pain even deeper inside.

As everything plays out in Lether and with the battle with the Nah'ruk, then during the march into the desert, she keeps getting bombarded with compassion and emotion for the world, those around her, all the hardships they're enduring. So much so that it's almost cracking her armor; hence why she showed such emotion (for her) when the 7 Unbound arrived in TCG. She's so focused on freeing the Crippled God, righting an old wrong, and Shad/Cot's plan to do so, that she's feeding everything she has into it. She has to keep going, she has to believe her army can do it, because it's all she has left. When they finally have the battle with the Kolansi and the FA, everything comes to a boiling point: all the suffering, all the emotions she's held inside for so long, she lets loose her cry of pure devastation and pain. Then Ganoes meets her, and she just breaks down. The thing that has been plaguing her for so long comes out first: "I lost her". She feels she's responsible for Felisin's death, and that is probably the biggest weight she's been carrying with her all this time.

So, ultimately, Tavore was constantly holding in pain and suffering, both for herself and many others, and the weight only kept getting heavier and heavier.

Anyway, this is my theory about Tavore's motivations and how she had her knowledge, why she was the way she was, etc. What do you think? This is probably not exactly correct, but I feel like something at least generally like this is the case.

[Tattersail_]

Interesting. I think a complete re read is in order for me soon. However, thinking about what you have said resonates with me at this point. I guess your main conversation point would be Shadowthrone, Cotillion and Tavore in the know. Some people may comment that T'amber knew a lot of these things and that it could be her in the triangle.

We can speculate that it was always Shadowthrone's and Cotillions plan to free him (TCG) or that this is just part of a bigger master plan between them.

If I had more time and having read the series closer I could probably go back and forth with you over this, it's a good theory and i'm not going to disagree wiith you.

[Siergiej]

I wouldn't say that Tavore was loyal to Shadowthrone and Cotillion. She was a genius, so I doubt she trusted the most deceptive gods in the universe. I think it was much more of cooperation for the same case, than loyalty and obedience.

[blackzoid]

I must ask, why do we consider Tavore a military genius exactly? I know we are told this, but what actions does she perform as commander of the Bonehunters mark her out as some military genius?
Yes we are told that she used to play the losing side in battles as a kid, but does she actually do anything concrete as a commander to mark her as some genius type person?

Cos all I can see with her record in HoC,TBH,RG,DoD,TCG is a whole load of scnearios where:
1: She does exactly what Korbolo Dom expects her to do on the placement of her troops in HoC.
2: Sends her troops into a firestorm. Unlucky
3: Sends her marines into Lether not knowing that the native Letherii would not gratefully rise up to overthrow the Edur instantly. Its Hetan's discovery of killing the debt holders that does that. And even then the Letherii army fights against the Malazans till the end.
4: Unlucky again with her troops in the wrong place at the wrong time when the KCNR show up.
5: Splits her troops to take on the Assail. That does show some element of tactics and strategy I grant, but to call her a genius based on that is a bit much.

Shes competent and very unlucky from what I read. Not some military mastermind genius.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 07 February 2012 - 02:58 PM

[the broken]

It could be true that it was all a collaboration between ST, Dancer, and Cot, but I hope not. That kinda undermines the 'don't mess with mortals' message as it becomes 'don't mess with mortals, who have a god to do their thinking for them.' I like to think it was Tavore in isolation, with maybe information from T'amber.

[D'rek]

I think you analysis is very good. Rereading really does show some of the cracks in Tavore`s emotional armour, like when Gamet dies. She holds it in really well, but there are little actions that add up over the series. And then she does boil over a bunch once they reach the Glass Desert and beyond, but that's perfectly understandable given she knows she's taking herself and (most of) her army to their deaths.

One thing I see a bit differently, though, is that I think Tavore was approached by ST/Cot before she ever became Adjunct. For all Tavore's abilities, she doesn't seem to have much personal ambition and I don't think she would have become Adjunct on her own. I think she sold out the nobility to Laseen to become Adjunct because it was necessary to get her into the position of trust and command needed to train an army, fight the Edur and take it to Kolanse.

[D'rek]

the broken, on 07 February 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

It could be true that it was all a collaboration between ST, Dancer, and Cot, but I hope not. That kinda undermines the 'don't mess with mortals' message as it becomes 'don't mess with mortals, who have a god to do their thinking for them.' I like to think it was Tavore in isolation, with maybe information from T'amber.

Tavore's talon and ST's conversation with Paran in the start of TCG make it pretty clear, IMO, that Tavore, ST and Cot were working together, but what exactly their working relationship is is anybody's guess. It doesn't have to be a case of ST/Cot recruiting her out of the blue and then helping her all along the way. Considering Tavore apparently studied Kel & Dancer, she may have been the one to contact them! And while ST and Dancer were clearly close sometimes, it looks to me like they didn't help much to keep everyone (especially the other gods and the reader) from seeing the connection.

The way I picture it, Tavore and ST had one meeting to discuss TCG, the coming Jade Strangers and what needed to be done before she ever became Adjunct, and then there was no contact the entire rest of the time. Tavore knew already where the Heart was, that there were FA, Edur and plenty of Gods in the way, but she still needed T'Amber, Banaschar, QB and others information that wasn't 5 years old and to cover the things she didn't know.

[tromedlov87]

Pretty much what D'rek said. I think it's pretty clear Tavore has some sort of contact with Shad/Cot, but how much and when exactly it occurred is debatable. Also, in regard to her being a military genius, I was going on the assumption that, at the time when she became Adjunct, most of the people who were close to the Paran family or close to the high positions in the empire probably believed that she was, since they would most likely have been told she had beaten high fists in mock battles and had surprising military knowledge, either by the Paran family, the fists themselves, or someone else who knew about it.

[blackzoid]

tromedlov87, on 08 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Pretty much what D'rek said. I think it's pretty clear Tavore has some sort of contact with Shad/Cot, but how much and when exactly it occurred is debatable. Also, in regard to her being a military genius, I was going on the assumption that, at the time when she became Adjunct, most of the people who were close to the Paran family or close to the high positions in the empire probably believed that she was, since they would most likely have been told she had beaten high fists in mock battles and had surprising military knowledge, either by the Paran family, the fists themselves, or someone else who knew about it.

Ok so thats a perception of her than. I can go along with that.
After all the Fists mock-fought her must have been friends of the Paran family and were probably nobles. We know that a lot of the nobles in the Malazan army were incompetants. I really doubt she play fought someone on Coltaines/Dujeks/Broods level. And they are not described as military genius level in the books ( I believe)

Please note that I am not trying to go out of my way to knock Tavore here, but the objective idea that she is some kind of military genius is really not supported by the text in the books.

[gandrin]

I finished the book 15 minutes ago.

I will agree that her plans were very strange. Why not, for instance, simply sail the entire fleet to Kolanse, or off the coast? Sounds much more likely. But if you think about what actually happened you realize she obviously knew something more had to happen. She had to do the impossible to win. The Bonehunters would have simply gotten cut down if they were alone.

She marched an army of ragtag recruits across two continents and defeated three empires. Along the way she was outlawed by her own country and they army left to die. Along the way, she managed to convince a) Khundryl Perish c) Letherii d) Bolkando and e) KChain Chemaille to join her cause....even though THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS. People talk about Napoleon as an incredible leader because he could rouse up an army to his cause. That was Tavore's true power. She was never given a chance at a normal fight. It was always with vastly unbalanced odds (one way or the other). The fact that she succeeded is completely dependent on her acquisition of allies, which was the only possible way she could win. She overcame impossible odds, over and over, because she won the right people/species to her cause.

[gandrin]

But another question... What was the "thing in Tavore's hands" that was needed for the Crippled God? (Conversation between Abrastal and the Barghast). It was compassion...but I'm not sure how HER compassion is what saved him. That scene seemed out of her hands, literally. From that foreshadowing I was expecting her to do something directly.

[D'rek]

blackzoid, on 08 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

tromedlov87, on 08 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Pretty much what D'rek said. I think it's pretty clear Tavore has some sort of contact with Shad/Cot, but how much and when exactly it occurred is debatable. Also, in regard to her being a military genius, I was going on the assumption that, at the time when she became Adjunct, most of the people who were close to the Paran family or close to the high positions in the empire probably believed that she was, since they would most likely have been told she had beaten high fists in mock battles and had surprising military knowledge, either by the Paran family, the fists themselves, or someone else who knew about it.

Ok so thats a perception of her than. I can go along with that.
After all the Fists mock-fought her must have been friends of the Paran family and were probably nobles. We know that a lot of the nobles in the Malazan army were incompetants. I really doubt she play fought someone on Coltaines/Dujeks/Broods level. And they are not described as military genius level in the books ( I believe)

Please note that I am not trying to go out of my way to knock Tavore here, but the objective idea that she is some kind of military genius is really not supported by the text in the books.

The "objective idea" that anybody is a military genius is not supported by the text in the books, either.

Dassem Ultor - walks around with a sword a whole bunch. In the only flashback of him at an actual battle he leaves the command tent to wade into the middle of the conflict where he can't see anything and messengers cannot reach him and is nearly assassinated by a Claw (presumed).

Dujek Onearm - chit chats in tents and gets a good view of Tayschrenn defeating Moon's Spawn so Dujek can send his army into a now-undefended city. Fights a bunch of routed, starving Pannion forces mostly consisting of Tenescowri, but we see nothing of the fight except that it happened and the only coutner he had ready against enemy mages was hoping Rake would turn into a dragon and eat them. Marches a whole bunch more. Flies the core of his force ahead to sabotage some tunnels any mage could collapse and determines it necessary to drop that entire force into the city against Condors and undead K'ell Hunters for not much particular reason while the main army hasn't come close to showing up yet, and so everyone gets pretty slaughtered. Takes the Host back to 7C and charges Poliel's temple with his entire senior command so the army is beheaded when they all get sick.

Whiskeyjack - leads a squad, like every other sergeant in the series. Becomes a second-in-command and does whatever Dujek says. Doesn't realize half his army has flown away on quorls. In flashback leads a slightly larger squad to follow a dozen mages through a desert.

Caladan Brood - stands around angsting about his hammer. His entire screen time related to commanding an army involves chatting to some Rhivi scouts about dead K'ell Hunters and losing track of his own mercenary companies.


Your legendary leaders do nothing! By comparison, Atri-Preda Unnutal Hebaz shows off her tactical prowess quite a lot and no one ever speaks her name in awe on other continents. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, then, that Tavore is a military genius.

[gandrin]

Dujek and Caladan plan in a tent and Crone says "Listen to him!" because both are planning the identical strategy. That is the one time we see them at work.

BUT.... I agree that the Pannion thing was an unmitigated disaster. The whole thing, not just losing Bridgeburners. Pale also seems poorly planned, though they had no counter for Rake.


Whiskeyjack, on the other hand... there's plenty of info throughout that his plans were flawless. Even when given poor (terrible) missions, he found a way to succeed within the limits of his orders, bending them when necessary.


It's pretty clear that SE had "kill lots and lots of people here" as the main goal, rather than subtle strategies, for all his battles.

[worry]

I dunno, it seems kind of weird to presume that a "military genius" translates to any particular thing in the real world. She's great at playing military games, doing research, and translating information into strategy. That decreases the odds of disastrous failure, and basically that's it. There's no such thing as foregone conclusions here. She wasn't up against laymen, she lives in a world where sorcery exists, and all you can do as a military leader is prepare for the maelstrom. And the fact is she succeeded in her military campaigns.

And if your focus on Kolanse is a military campaign to defeat the FA army, then you're just on the wrong track. None of it was meant to end in victory, the goals of the campaign were to 1) free the Crippled God , 2) deny T'iam and deal with Korabas, 3) save Burn and therefore humanity. At any personal cost. Everything else, including survival, was incidental.

[blackzoid]

worrywort, on 08 February 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

I dunno, it seems kind of weird to presume that a "military genius" translates to any particular thing in the real world. She's great at playing military games, doing research, and translating information into strategy. That decreases the odds of disastrous failure, and basically that's it. There's no such thing as foregone conclusions here. She wasn't up against laymen, she lives in a world where sorcery exists, and all you can do as a military leader is prepare for the maelstrom. And the fact is she succeeded in her military campaigns.

And if your focus on Kolanse is a military campaign to defeat the FA army, then you're just on the wrong track. None of it was meant to end in victory, the goals of the campaign were to 1) free the Crippled God , 2) deny T'iam and deal with Korabas, 3) save Burn and therefore humanity. At any personal cost. Everything else, including survival, was incidental.

I'm pretty sure there were real world examples of military genius. Hannibal at Cannae, Alexander the Great in his campaigns. It doesn't have to be Thrawn level we are talking about here. But something in which the battle is decided upon through amazing tactics/strategy and not convergence/sorcery/unexpected Ascendent-God taking an active hand.

Maybe I overstated my case. There simply seems to be NO examples of "military genius" in the Malazan world. (Though I think Coltaine's tactics in the initial stages of the chain of dogs might apply). There were no Cannae type enevelopments, or any Gaugamela type smashing military victories using flanking manevours. As you said everything has convergence and sorcery involved. Unless the use of sorcery/convergence is considered military genius. Than perhaps Shadowthrone would be up there for his manipulation of others to get the result he wants.

So ya, Tavore's probably up there at the same level as Whiskeyjack,Brood,Dassem,Korbolo Dom etc. The competant but not genius level.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 08 February 2012 - 11:37 PM

[worry]

I'm not saying military genius doesn't exist, only that it's one small stabilizing element in the chaos of war, bordering on irrelevant (relative to general competence, not incompetence). In other words, it's academic, and above a certain level of competence there's diminishing returns against a competent opponent. Like Korbolo Dom or Prince Kazz. And no level of genius is gonna prepare you for the KCNR or undead KCCM. There's actually very few battles in this particular series that wouldn't lead to essentially Pyrrhic victories for either side. But they are worthwhile, given the supernatural nature of a lot of the actors, and the heightened stakes.

I mean you can criticize the attack on Coral from a lot of traditional strategic angles, but the stakes simply aren't traditional. A Pyrrhic victory is a true victory, because the stakes aren't how many military lives you lose, they're the poisoning of the warrens, the domination of Pannion (and therefore the Crippled God), and ultimately whether Brood will have to use his hammer to reboot the world (minus 99.99% of all currently living things). There is no strategy that will cope with that, outside of potentially self-annihilating mad gambits. Saving the lives of the remaining Bridgeburners is absolutely meaningless in the face of that.

[amphibian]

There are two kinds of battles - strategic ones and tactical ones. The Viet Cong losing every single tactical battle they ever engaged the Americans in was meaningless because they won the strategic battle. Strategy is the overarching plan and tactics is the nitty gritty, in the heat of the moment stuff. Success in one does not necessarily mean the other is also successful. This is the difference between hot and cold iron as Mathok intended it. Cold iron leans towards the strategic victory. Hot iron leans towards the tactical victory.

D, on 08 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

The "objective idea" that anybody is a military genius is not supported by the text in the books, either.

This can be refuted by pointing to Coltaine. Sekala Crossing, Gelor Ridge, Vathar Crossing, Sainimon, Tathimon, Dojal and The Fall were all brilliant, if pricey. Coltaine succeeded on a strategic level - delivering every single refugee he possibly could, along with several groups of the wounded soldiers AND Duiker to Aren - and succeeded again and again on the tactical level with an army he basically rebuilt from scratch. Coltaine is the finest military commander in the books.

Quote

Dassem Ultor - walks around with a sword a whole bunch. In the only flashback of him at an actual battle he leaves the command tent to wade into the middle of the conflict where he can't see anything and messengers cannot reach him and is nearly assassinated by a Claw (presumed).

The idea behind Dassem was that he would get the Champion of the other side to engage and then go and wipe out that strongest point. Very Greek hero aristeia-like. I do agree that he isn't the best strategist, but as a tactician, probably very, very good.

Quote

Dujek Onearm - chit chats in tents and gets a good view of Tayschrenn defeating Moon's Spawn so Dujek can send his army into a now-undefended city. Fights a bunch of routed, starving Pannion forces mostly consisting of Tenescowri, but we see nothing of the fight except that it happened and the only coutner he had ready against enemy mages was hoping Rake would turn into a dragon and eat them. Marches a whole bunch more. Flies the core of his force ahead to sabotage some tunnels any mage could collapse and determines it necessary to drop that entire force into the city against Condors and undead K'ell Hunters for not much particular reason while the main army hasn't come close to showing up yet, and so everyone gets pretty slaughtered. Takes the Host back to 7C and charges Poliel's temple with his entire senior command so the army is beheaded when they all get sick.

Whiskeyjack - leads a squad, like every other sergeant in the series. Becomes a second-in-command and does whatever Dujek says. Doesn't realize half his army has flown away on quorls. In flashback leads a slightly larger squad to follow a dozen mages through a desert.

These two have to be taken together. They're too interlinked with each other and essentially Dujek goes as Whiskeyjack does.

Whiskeyjack showed signs of being a military genius. The chase through Rauraku succeeded and let him take the garrison on the other side with total surprise and zero loss of life. It also forged an immensely strong core of veterans that he could depend on again and again. In terms of Nathilog, Mott Wood and so on, we don't know who won the battles and how that side did so. All we know is that Rake was brought to battle at Pale and that the Malazans felt that they had a decent chance of victory with the mages at hand and the tunneling going on. It ended up being a stalemate initially, but Moon's Spawn did move away to Darujhistan - ceding Pale to the Malazans. That's a strategic victory for Dujek, even if the Bridgeburners being in the tunnels was a tactical blunder.

Darujhistan eventually became allied with Malazan interests and Rake/Brood (minus the Crimson Guard) joined the "renegades". Add into that the recruitment of the Barghast and the relief of Capustan just as the siege was ending and you have a decently successful initial campaign.

Now, the tricky part is how much credence you give to the threat of Brood's hammer and the alliance fraying apart. I'm of the opinion that Dujek and Whiskeyjack purposely planned the jump ahead in order to prevent Brood from ever engaging and to assure that Malazan interests (removing the Pannion as a threat to Burn/Malaz) were served. The plan would essentially have worked had Itkovian not done the dumbass thing of making the T'lan not fight the K'ell Hunters. That's a tactical failure, but perhaps a strategic victory as Pannion was turned into preserving Burn, Rake grounded in Pale, the Barghast leaving Genabackis and Brood set wandering with no army. The only problem was that Onearm's Host was drastically weakened and ran into the plagues set by Poleil later before being taken over by Ganoes Paran.

I think Dujek and Whiskeyjack were good commanders, but took a very risky gamble because they failed to communicate or establish solid relationships with Brood and Rake. The methods by which they snuck in and took out the flank was awesome. The jump into the city for urban warfare was not so smart and the undead K'ells tore them up.

As the Gods of Death, Whiskeyjack, Dujek and the other Bridgeburners were decent commanders. They held Chaos off long enough, appeared at the right spots to help strategically important/emotionally close individuals and helped usher in a new era free of the Chained One's agonies and machinations.

Quote

Caladan Brood - stands around angsting about his hammer. His entire screen time related to commanding an army involves chatting to some Rhivi scouts about dead K'ell Hunters and losing track of his own mercenary companies.

There's just not enough information to jump one way or another with Brood as a military commander. He and Rake did battle the Malazans to a near standstill at multiple points despite not having the resources of empire behind them, so that's something to be said for both commanders. As a diplomat and a convergence-participant, he's okay - if a bit late to the show.

Quote

Your legendary leaders do nothing! By comparison, Atri-Preda Unnutal Hebaz shows off her tactical prowess quite a lot and no one ever speaks her name in awe on other continents. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, then, that Tavore is a military genius.

I don't remember enough about Hebaz to speak with authority.

K'azz appears to be a bit of a dumbass actually. He and his had to go the T'lan route to have any chance of success and they still haven't achieved anything near their strategic goals. Tactically, they usually win, but they don't fight the best and win regularly.

The Old Guard were all dumbasses and that's because ICE wrote them as such. How does the finest cavalry commander in recent memory get caught up in a siege and then get speared to death because he's emotionally betrayed by people who were uncertain allies from the get-go? The Talian League was a trap and Laseen would have murdered them all if she'd had her way. They even failed to put the "right" candidate on the throne, as Mallick jumped in to seize the reins.

Greymane.... urgh... No firm idea. Again, problems with the ICE presentation. Strategically successful, tactically uncertain is my best guess.

[champ]

Just to throw this out there...

Whiskeyjack in MoI.

Quote

...Gods below, we are heading to our deaths. An unseen enemy - but one we've known about for a long time, one we knew was coming, sooner or later, one that - by the Abyss - makes the T'lan Imass recoil...

The Malazan Empire had known about the threat of tCG for a long time and who knows what plots were thrown up back in the day and what links were established, ST/Cots are capable of anything and I would be very suprised if Tavore hadn't been roped into their scheme as the plans progressed!

As for whether Tavore is a military genius or not, I think that anyone who manages to command an army across half the world whilst subduing a rebellion, facing a potential civil war, conquering an empire, crossing a continent and an unpassable desert, then facing down an army of Assail and zombie warriors, whilst managing to pull off the plan of freeing tCG and spitting in the eye of the other gods deserves some credit... if not the recognition as a military genius!

This post has been edited by champ: 12 February 2012 - 05:42 PM

[the broken]

D, on 07 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

the broken, on 07 February 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

It could be true that it was all a collaboration between ST, Dancer, and Cot, but I hope not. That kinda undermines the 'don't mess with mortals' message as it becomes 'don't mess with mortals, who have a god to do their thinking for them.' I like to think it was Tavore in isolation, with maybe information from T'amber.

Tavore's talon and ST's conversation with Paran in the start of TCG make it pretty clear, IMO, that Tavore, ST and Cot were working together, but what exactly their working relationship is is anybody's guess. It doesn't have to be a case of ST/Cot recruiting her out of the blue and then helping her all along the way. Considering Tavore apparently studied Kel & Dancer, she may have been the one to contact them! And while ST and Dancer were clearly close sometimes, it looks to me like they didn't help much to keep everyone (especially the other gods and the reader) from seeing the connection.

The way I picture it, Tavore and ST had one meeting to discuss TCG, the coming Jade Strangers and what needed to be done before she ever became Adjunct, and then there was no contact the entire rest of the time. Tavore knew already where the Heart was, that there were FA, Edur and plenty of Gods in the way, but she still needed T'Amber, Banaschar, QB and others information that wasn't 5 years old and to cover the things she didn't know.

Strange...what I took away from Shadowthrone and Paran's conversation was that Tavore was just as much a mystery to ST as everyone else, that he'd never had any contact with her and thus in desperation went to talk to Ganoes in order to gain some insight, because for one of the few times in his existence he had no idea what someone was going to do.

Dassem is an exceptional soldier, but he's just a field commander. He 'deferred to others' in the matter of strategy, according to Laseen in Crimson Guard.

.

Quote

. How does the finest cavalry commander in recent memory get caught up in a siege and then get speared to death because he's emotionally betrayed by people who were uncertain allies from the get-go?

Spoiler

Because, to him, they aren't uncertain allies. He's spent decades of his life with the Seti, raised his son as one of them. When they betray him, the battle is lost, and he believes it's all his fault. He's lost the battle for his allies, and goes after them because at that point, he doesn't care if he lives or dies, if he has some small chance of calling back the allies he brought to the table that were now abandoning him at the crucial moment.

The really disappointing guy was Amaron, but we mostly see him through the eyes of Ghelel, and given her scruples he's not going to tell her about all the sneaky stuff he's no doubt assigning his subordinates to.

Edit: I just realised that not everyone who read CG has read ROTCG, so I put up spoiler tags.

This post has been edited by the broken: 16 February 2012 - 06:32 PM

[amphibian]

the broken, on 16 February 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Because, to him, they aren't uncertain allies. He's spent decades of his life with the Seti, raised his son as one of them. When they betray him, the battle is lost, and he believes it's all his fault. He's lost the battle for his allies, and goes after them because at that point, he doesn't care if he lives or dies, if he has some small chance of calling back the allies he brought to the table that were now abandoning him at the crucial moment.

You're missing the point - cavalry shouldn't be directly involved in sieges. Horses don't attack walls well.

The Seti knew that and they apparently aren't nearly half the cavalry commander that Toc is, so their betrayal was actually quite wise in self-interest. Toc should have either anticipated it, moved the Seti elsewhere or been less emotional about the refusal to commit suicide by attacking. He should have been out harrying the Imperial forces as they formed and then marched upon Li Heng.