[the broken]

I need to read the book again, but isn't this what happened?

Spoiler

The Seti hate Li Heng, but horses can't climb walls. They isolate the city, and hang around waiting for enough men to attack properly. And then get impatient when it doesn't happen, because they have to march to meet Laseen instead. Rylly is released, which means that Shaman I forget the name of gains power, and decides that with Ryllandaras (his god) free, he doesn't need Toc to take Li Heng any more. Hence the betrayal.

[Sister Envy]

First time posting, not sure if this is the best place of post, or if it has been mentioned before.....but here goes.

Just recently finished TCG. Throughout the the series I found Tavores character a real mystery......almost frustratingly so. It wasn't until I finished TCG, sat back and had a think about the whole book/series that I came to like and understand why she did the things she did.

I found tromedlov's analysis of Tavore very interesting, and i think alot of his views about her are pretty spot on. I think the best thing about these books is everyone comes out with something different out of them (as can be seen in these forums)

The way I saw her towards the end of the book is like a so called "mother" figure. Saving the world, but also what she is like to her soldiers. She keeps her emotions hidden, I think in the long run for the benefit of her soldiers. What you see with her is what you get. And I think the big thing that I got out the books is that she is only "Human", yes not all her plans go accordingly etc, but I guess that brings up the whole point of humanity and never being able to guess what she will do. Her failures and success is all part of being human.

We may not fully understand her, or why she did the things she did, but in the end she did what she thought was right, and I guess in a sense a mother would do that too........

Badalle being a child and a symbol of the future looks to her as mother also...I may have taken it all wrong.

Just my take on Tavore, my analysis could really random, I could go on but not sure if my tangent would make sense.......still a novice with this series and this forum.

[D'rek]

Sister Envy, on 11 March 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

First time posting, not sure if this is the best place of post, or if it has been mentioned before.....but here goes.

Just recently finished TCG. Throughout the the series I found Tavores character a real mystery......almost frustratingly so. It wasn't until I finished TCG, sat back and had a think about the whole book/series that I came to like and understand why she did the things she did.

I found tromedlov's analysis of Tavore very interesting, and i think alot of his views about her are pretty spot on. I think the best thing about these books is everyone comes out with something different out of them (as can be seen in these forums)

The way I saw her towards the end of the book is like a so called "mother" figure. Saving the world, but also what she is like to her soldiers. She keeps her emotions hidden, I think in the long run for the benefit of her soldiers. What you see with her is what you get. And I think the big thing that I got out the books is that she is only "Human", yes not all her plans go accordingly etc, but I guess that brings up the whole point of humanity and never being able to guess what she will do. Her failures and success is all part of being human.

We may not fully understand her, or why she did the things she did, but in the end she did what she thought was right, and I guess in a sense a mother would do that too........

Badalle being a child and a symbol of the future looks to her as mother also...I may have taken it all wrong.

Just my take on Tavore, my analysis could really random, I could go on but not sure if my tangent would make sense.......still a novice with this series and this forum.

I think you're spot on. For the Tavore-motherhood aspect, there's definitely some intentional linking there on SE's part - Badalle refers to Tavore as Mother, and there's also a scene where Tavore tells Lostara about Hanavat birthing her child, in the middle of the Glass Desert or so, and that seeing how Hanavat protects her child is all she needs to draw the strength to complete her objective.

re Tavore being mysterious - I definitely think this is intentional (and SE has pretty much confirmed it in interviews). When Tavore is calling out random Bonehunter infantry before their last stand against the FA, in part of that speech she talks about how historians will not know them, that they will be unwitnessed and she closes it off saying that she, too, is unwitnessed.

[Mekeritrig]

D, on 08 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 08 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

tromedlov87, on 08 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Pretty much what D'rek said. I think it's pretty clear Tavore has some sort of contact with Shad/Cot, but how much and when exactly it occurred is debatable. Also, in regard to her being a military genius, I was going on the assumption that, at the time when she became Adjunct, most of the people who were close to the Paran family or close to the high positions in the empire probably believed that she was, since they would most likely have been told she had beaten high fists in mock battles and had surprising military knowledge, either by the Paran family, the fists themselves, or someone else who knew about it.

Ok so thats a perception of her than. I can go along with that.
After all the Fists mock-fought her must have been friends of the Paran family and were probably nobles. We know that a lot of the nobles in the Malazan army were incompetants. I really doubt she play fought someone on Coltaines/Dujeks/Broods level. And they are not described as military genius level in the books ( I believe)

Please note that I am not trying to go out of my way to knock Tavore here, but the objective idea that she is some kind of military genius is really not supported by the text in the books.

The "objective idea" that anybody is a military genius is not supported by the text in the books, either.

Dassem Ultor - walks around with a sword a whole bunch. In the only flashback of him at an actual battle he leaves the command tent to wade into the middle of the conflict where he can't see anything and messengers cannot reach him and is nearly assassinated by a Claw (presumed).

Dujek Onearm - chit chats in tents and gets a good view of Tayschrenn defeating Moon's Spawn so Dujek can send his army into a now-undefended city. Fights a bunch of routed, starving Pannion forces mostly consisting of Tenescowri, but we see nothing of the fight except that it happened and the only coutner he had ready against enemy mages was hoping Rake would turn into a dragon and eat them. Marches a whole bunch more. Flies the core of his force ahead to sabotage some tunnels any mage could collapse and determines it necessary to drop that entire force into the city against Condors and undead K'ell Hunters for not much particular reason while the main army hasn't come close to showing up yet, and so everyone gets pretty slaughtered. Takes the Host back to 7C and charges Poliel's temple with his entire senior command so the army is beheaded when they all get sick.

Whiskeyjack - leads a squad, like every other sergeant in the series. Becomes a second-in-command and does whatever Dujek says. Doesn't realize half his army has flown away on quorls. In flashback leads a slightly larger squad to follow a dozen mages through a desert.

Caladan Brood - stands around angsting about his hammer. His entire screen time related to commanding an army involves chatting to some Rhivi scouts about dead K'ell Hunters and losing track of his own mercenary companies.


Your legendary leaders do nothing! By comparison, Atri-Preda Unnutal Hebaz shows off her tactical prowess quite a lot and no one ever speaks her name in awe on other continents. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, then, that Tavore is a military genius.

Just a little thing: Whiskeyjack wasn't just a squad leader. Before he was Dujek's second, he commanded an army (I think), or at least a substantial force of men. Laseen demoted him from his position near the top of the command structure. Also, part of Dassem's brilliance was his willingness to listen to his commanders. I forget where that's from, but someone says it.

[D'rek]

Mekeritrig, on 23 May 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Just a little thing: Whiskeyjack wasn't just a squad leader. Before he was Dujek's second, he commanded an army (I think), or at least a substantial force of men. Laseen demoted him from his position near the top of the command structure.

Yeah, but we never see him do it in the books. Spindle once commanded an entire company of mage-sappers, but we don't see that in the books either, just his hairshirt-and-animals-go-crazy shenanigans.

Mekeritrig, on 23 May 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Also, part of Dassem's brilliance was his willingness to listen to his commanders.

So you're saying Keneb, who listens to his sergeants more than any character in the entire series, is by far the greatest tactical genius in the series?