[NickO]

Spoilers


So, forgive me if this is obvious to everyone else and I just wasn't paying attention but what was the purpose of the mangy witch in the story? Kruppe wanted something from her and then (raped?) her whilst sleeping to get it. What? why?
Did he possibly get the charmed bolts used at the end from her?

[tiam]

I thought it was the material for the bolts that Barathol and Humble Measure made.

Though it could have been an ancient recipe for toast from Grizzin Farl for all I know

[Harvester]

You know, after reading the passage where Humble dumps his tools into the lake and the fisherman hears " the jangling of a metal chain", I thought they were using the shards of Dragnipur... that would have been awesome.

[champ]

I thought they were, wasn't that what was claimed from the chest at Baruk's?

[Harvester]

Now you made me very happy.

[Defiance]

Awesome catch, guys.

[thebarstoolscholar]

Doesn't it say at the end that the witch was Derudan? Ircc, she was a high priestess or something for the Boar of Summer, and was/is a practicioner of Tennes, as well as being a memeber of the Cabal.
Going out on a limb but with her being a practiioner of tennes with ties to the old Boar of Summer cult her magic is going to revolve around sex to a degree. I belive that Baruk makes a mention of this in Gardens of the Moon at one piont, while the two of them are discussing the situation of Vorcan. He makes a comment about one of the boars tusk's being love.
So whatever Kruppe wanted Derudan to do it involved sex/love.
Also doesn't she make several refferences to waiting thoughout the book? Since Tennes is the path of the land, my reread of this(as strange as this sounds) is that she was literaly incubating something in her womb for Kruppe. Possibly the shards, or possibly a poison? Kruppe did tell Barathol and Humble Measure to avoid toutching whatever he handed them with thier bare hands, and then to scrub very well. Perhaps I read a bit too much into that bit cause the Shards make just as much sense as a poison. Although Barathol was very obsessive over being clean after he finished that job.

This post has been edited by thebarstoolscholar: 28 January 2012 - 05:57 AM

[Furoan]

thebarstoolscholar, on 28 January 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Doesn't it say at the end that the witch was Derudan? Ircc, she was a high priestess or something for the Boar of Summer, and was/is a practicioner of Tennes, as well as being a memeber of the Cabal.
Going out on a limb but with her being a practiioner of tennes with ties to the old Boar of Summer cult her magic is going to revolve around sex to a degree. I belive that Baruk makes a mention of this in Gardens of the Moon at one piont, while the two of them are discussing the situation of Vorcan. He makes a comment about one of the boars tusk's being love.
So whatever Kruppe wanted Derudan to do it involved sex/love.
Also doesn't she make several refferences to waiting thoughout the book? Since Tennes is the path of the land, my reread of this(as strange as this sounds) is that she was literaly incubating something in her womb for Kruppe. Possibly the shards, or possibly a poison? Kruppe did tell Barathol and Humble Measure to avoid toutching whatever he handed them with thier bare hands, and then to scrub very well. Perhaps I read a bit too much into that bit cause the Shards make just as much sense as a poison. Although Barathol was very obsessive over being clean after he finished that job.

Dragnipur might be broken but if it was ground down shards, I still would want to make sure nothing was touching me. I have no idea what broken Dragnipur would do to you after it had been broken if it was on your skin, or through friction or something made even a tiny cut, but it probably wouldn't be pleasant.

[tiam]

Solid catch on the Dragnipur shards btw

In that case then were back to square one with who was the witch and what was Kruppe doing other than copping a feel?

[champ]

I thought she was the witch from - iirc - MoI? the one QB meets/gives his pebble to and she calls him a snake of the desert, the oldest living witch left alive of Tennes?

[Harvester]

She is, but she's in GotM as well. Tennes, well, Dragnipur was forged "in Burn's heart" with the one hammer ... so maybe Kruppe brought the shards to Derudan to have them ... resanctified?

This post has been edited by Harvester: 28 January 2012 - 05:38 PM

[Defiance]

Concerning Derudan not answering the Tyrant's call, I'm going to assume it's because Kruppe (or herself) put her under some mind-boggling magics. It doesn't seem clear that she knows quite who she is until the very end of the book.

I have no idea why Kruppe visited her. A weakness in ICE's writing, in my opinion, is his ambiguity. Erikson pulls off ambiguity near flawlessly, whereas, with ICE, it feels forced/unneeded. I can't count the number of times he tried to be clever by not mentioning a character's name in the book. With this situation, it's infuriating that it's left so unclear. The old woman was brought up at least a half dozen times in the book, and yet her role in things is ridiculously clouded. There's absolutely no reason for it. SE likes to shroud things in ambiguity with big reveals at the end. Sure, we don't know quite a bit of stuff, but I never felt it necessary to know who exactly Ruthan and Quick were and so on. ICE likes to shroud pivotal plot details in ambiguity with no conclusion (who/what exactly was the Tyrant, the Stormriders). It's poor writing and it's beyond frustrating.

I did love this book, though. There are just a few things within it that really irritate me.

[Varan]

Yeah i think derudan was one of the 12 and kruppe and her conspired to put her out of the tyrants reach, but she made something for kruppe to help take out the tyrant unsure exactly what it was though...

[Paran]

Yeah, the witch was Derudan and her madness allowed her to not answer the Tyrant's call. We're not told why they must answer or what makes them answer, but there you go. It is assumed that Kruppe had a hand in Derudan's current condition, and at the end she spouts something like "Derudan will return soon" so she's not quite herself. ICE is pretty weak when it comes to explaining the magical elements clearly.

[Harvester]

I think it's the opium that keeps her out of the Tyrants reach.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 30 January 2012 - 11:56 AM

[tiam]

Ever since I read on here that it was Derudan I thought it was odd. Granted with the smoking etc it does fit what we see of her in GOTM etc. However in the very prologue itself shes claimed to be 'crazy old woman who has lived there aslong as anyone can remember' (p.30 HB). This is entirely inconsistent with her portrayal as a minor noble in GOTM and her appearance in TTH as someone of means. Even if we accept Kruppe stripped her of her wealth ( or more likely took here away from it) then how can she have lived there as long as anyone could remember in her guise of 'crazy cat lady'? Its an inconsistency that can be explained away as Kruppes super magic powers in this one or the fact she took over from a previous crazy old lady who lived there but really its an inconsistency I feel.

Also I think the 'him' reference throughout the book must be about Kruppe. Baruk states in the prologue that Kruppe 'may not fare as well this time' when discussing the fact that the circle is broken. However this completely contradicts the earlier MOI viewpoint of Kruppe as simply the greatest mortal mind. Hes now an incredibly powerful entity thats atleast 2000 years old as it seems hes been keeping the circle broken for so long and clearly did it last time otherwise Baruks comment of 'this time' makes little sense. Seems to be alot of this.

[Varan]

I always took 'him' to be caladan brood, especially considering the 'I warned him comment'

[D'rek]

It was Derudan, Kruppe did indeed mess with her mind (via that drug he kept giving her) to keep her from answering the Tyrant's call. She whittled a bunch of sticks, then laid spells on them via sleeping with Kruppe. Kruppe then took these sticks and used them for the shafts of crossbow bolts (which yes, the heads were made by Humble Measure and Barathol using shards/shavings of Dragnipur). And then those bolts ended up in Scorch and Leff's crossbows, and then later in the chest of the Tyrant.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 14 March 2012 - 06:31 PM

[Geer]

That's some pretty good insight.

[tiam]

D, on 14 March 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

It was Derudan, Kruppe did indeed mess with her mind (via that drug he kept giving her) to keep her from answering the Tyrant's call. She whittled a bunch of sticks, then laid spells on them via sleeping with Kruppe. Kruppe then took these sticks and used them for the shafts of crossbow bolts (which yes, the heads were made by Humble Measure and Barathol using shards/shavings of Dragnipur). And then those bolts ended up in Scorch and Leff's crossbows, and then later in the chest of the Tyrant.

You are right but the drug is the same pipe she wassmoking in GOTM. Also it doesnt fit that shed lived there for aslong as anyone could remember.