[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Was Rake the Seguleh first?

[tiam]

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 25 January 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Was Rake the Seguleh first?

No he was the 7th. This is made clear in MOI when Mok refers to him as blacksword. Lo, the 8th, wanted to challenge Dassem because he was the 7th but Dassem wouldnt fight him.

As for how Rake got the mask in the first place these are the sequence of events

1) ICE was born
2)starts writing fantasy
3) changes alot of things for no reason including putting the Seguleh First mask on Moonspawn with no explanation other than Oru having an ,unexplained, vision
4) ???????
5) profit

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

But is it not possible that at some point Rake was offered the position by the first?

[Angel]

AnomanderRakeSoD, on 25 January 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

But is it not possible that at some point Rake was offered the position by the first?

What the hell ISN'T possible - the point is that it is not written...

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

yeh but thats why im speculating here

[polishgenius]

Well, I liked it and you're all weird.


I liked the Tyrant. I felt his end was a bit anticlimactic but it was also very Kruppe - and it fit in with the whole theme of him, which was that he's clearly delusional and smug about himself despite having failed countless times before. I felt that the whole thing was ICE having a bit of fun with the entire trope of a sealed big bad- not subverting it in the way SE did with Raest, but playing it straight and then taking the piss. I don't feel we needed anything about his personal past- we got everything we needed to know about him from previous books. Taya's consistent disbelief that she could be bettered also fit in with the theme of the arrogance of that court.

I liked the sparse descriptions of fighting. People seem to be criticising ICE for not being Erikson in that respect, but, well: he isn't Erikson. He's clearly not as comfortable as SE in writing action but frankly it's refreshing reading showdowns without the melodrama. The style particularly fit the Seguleh for whom simplicity is everything. It wouldn't have worked for, say, Rake, but it worked for them.

I liked that Dassem went the whole book without lifting his blade. Yeah, it became fairly apparent early on that it was on the cards, but I was pleased to see it borne out.

Torvald's storyline was mostly one of plot convenience but I found amusing how his travels with Karsa made him so blase about certain threats. Like his showdown with the initial Silver.


Theory as to the mask being on Moon's Spawn: we know that the mask was stolen. We know that the original Apsalar was mistress of thieves, we know that she came to Moon's Spawn, and we know that Rake killed her. Seems a likely connection to me, especially as there's no reason to mention Apsalar within this book and yet she was. As for how Oru knew- it's stated he had a vision. Yes, it's a contrivance. It's hardly the greatest contrivance of knowledge we've seen in the series so far. There are whole characters who basically exist to know things that they shouldn't.

Minor nitpick: was there really a reason to not set this after TCG? Not just because it did spoil aspects of the novel, since characters from here appeared there, but because Karsa had to be in the area to do his thing, yet the Tyrant is pretty much a manifestation of everything hates most and it's odd that he's that close yet doesn't do anything.

[Illuyankas]

polishgenius, on 26 January 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Minor nitpick: was there really a reason to not set this after TCG? Not just because it did spoil aspects of the novel, since characters from here appeared there, but because Karsa had to be in the area to do his thing, yet the Tyrant is pretty much a manifestation of everything hates most and it's odd that he's that close yet doesn't do anything.

This is because both SE and ICE specifically hate me.

[Moss]

champ, on 25 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Fully agree Illy, I was hooked on the book when I started reading it, I thought ICE had really improved as a writer and I couldn't wait to find out the resolution at the end, who the Tyrant was, the truth behind the Seguleh masks (wooden one, why Rake had the first) and just where the 12 came from, these things to name a few, safe to say when these details didnt materialise I was somewhat disappointed... SW all over again!

Exactly my opinion. Was hooked when the tyrant showed up and couldn't stop reading. The end was indeed somewhat dissapointing. Beside the orb he nearly didn't do anything. Why was everyone affraid of him? Only his slave demon mage cadre and his obeying Seguleh made him powerfull. Why didn't Brood just walked in and slayed him?

I really enjoyed the Antsy arc, but other than the Seguleh retrieving their mask it hasn't much of an outcome. What was it with all these powerfull mages in the spawns? They were unnecessary.

And finally there was one part of the book where ICE nearly lost me. What's up with all the whining when the Moranth dropped their munitions over the 200 Seguleh? In fact, the Malazans did this in just EVERY BOOK thus far, and no one gives a s*** about how dishonorable that was. I mean they were going to be choped to pieces. The Malazan Empire would have been governed by the Talian League by now if Nait and his sappers hadn't slaughtered Urko's skirmish line with cussers during the Battle of the Plains.

[tiam]

Moss, on 26 January 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

champ, on 25 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Fully agree Illy, I was hooked on the book when I started reading it, I thought ICE had really improved as a writer and I couldn't wait to find out the resolution at the end, who the Tyrant was, the truth behind the Seguleh masks (wooden one, why Rake had the first) and just where the 12 came from, these things to name a few, safe to say when these details didnt materialise I was somewhat disappointed... SW all over again!

Exactly my opinion. Was hooked when the tyrant showed up and couldn't stop reading. The end was indeed somewhat dissapointing. Beside the orb he nearly didn't do anything. Why was everyone affraid of him? Only his slave demon mage cadre and his obeying Seguleh made him powerfull. Why didn't Brood just walked in and slayed him?

I really enjoyed the Antsy arc, but other than the Seguleh retrieving their mask it hasn't much of an outcome. What was it with all these powerfull mages in the spawns? They were unnecessary.

And finally there was one part of the book where ICE nearly lost me. What's up with all the whining when the Moranth dropped their munitions over the 200 Seguleh? In fact, the Malazans did this in just EVERY BOOK thus far, and no one gives a s*** about how dishonorable that was. I mean they were going to be choped to pieces. The Malazan Empire would have been governed by the Talian League by now if Nait and his sappers hadn't slaughtered Urko's skirmish line with cussers during the Battle of the Plains.

Onearms Host didnt cry for the Pannions did they.

Brood is a fine example of how this didnt come together. He could at any point have come into the city and gotten rid of the Tyrant but he simply bumbled around Genabackis while the BB were struggling to do all sort of recon and planting of munitions. Munitions dont work so Brood turns up, breaks the shield then vanishes again. Unnecessary plotline that started well with Broods greif but simply became a plot device. I think ICE simply wanted Broods grief in the book as the only contribution Brood had was breaking the ritualised silver which could have easily been accomplished by the BB (as in ICE could have made it possible I know the munitions failed).

Also I assume we all think Barathol and Humble Heasure made those super arrows that accidentally killed the Tyrant when Scorch and Leff shot him. Again how did they scare of a HOS in TTH? Thats right it wasnt explained, just like all the rest...

[champ]

Aye, the arrows were made by Barathol, Humble and Kruppe - Scorch and Leff mention that the arrow heads have wax on them and when Kruppe leaves Barathol/Humble he states to remember the bees wax, I guess Kruppe then quick-handed the arrows to Scorch and Leff

edit

I got chills when Brood strapped his hammer on... aye and we know where that ended :sadpanda:

This post has been edited by champ: 26 January 2012 - 07:06 PM

[Wanderer]

Most of my feelings on OST have been previously expressed already with regards to the frustrating lack of information on certain subjects.
I really enjoyed this novel. I demolished it in a weekend but , like many have already said, there was a real sense of emptiness when I finished. Everyone who has stuck with the series has a pretty high tolerance for things not being handed to them but there really does come a point when enough is enough. Certain parts of this novel were obscure just for the sake of it. Barathol and Humble making the arrows, the lack of information of the motivations of Aman, Taya, Fisher, Hinter, the Vitr ( Really? The Shores of Mother Fracking Creation and literally no info????), The Tyrant, The Moranth,Barukanal etc.

I feel as if we have invested so much into this series already and to get no answers on such majorly important mythology really angers.

I feel we , as readers who have given a large amount of time reading and contributing on the forum, should have been given better. And while I realise saying that brings up the argument of whether or not we are entitled to anything, with this novel I began to lose my belief in the Malazan world.


I'll still buy all the books and continue recommending them but I really hope it gets better.

[Cause]

were the arrows made from shards of dragnipur?

Quote

Most of my feelings on OST have been previously expressed already with regards to the frustrating lack of information on certain subjects.
I really enjoyed this novel. I demolished it in a weekend but , like many have already said, there was a real sense of emptiness when I finished. Everyone who has stuck with the series has a pretty high tolerance for things not being handed to them but there really does come a point when enough is enough. Certain parts of this novel were obscure just for the sake of it. Barathol and Humble making the arrows, the lack of information of the motivations of Aman, Taya, Fisher, Hinter, the Vitr ( Really? The Shores of Mother Fracking Creation and literally no info????), The Tyrant, The Moranth,Barukanal etc.

My god, not until your brought it up did I realize that it never even bothered me that we are not told the motivations of Hinter and Aman. Just par the course these days. At least six of the cabal that we know of rather died than be enslaved again. One chained themselves with ottotaral and the other resisted even though he was being constantly tortured. Still Aman and Hinter were eager to serve.

This post has been edited by Cause: 26 January 2012 - 07:51 PM

[tiam]

Wanderer, on 26 January 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

I feel we , as readers who have given a large amount of time reading and contributing on the forum, should have been given better. And while I realise saying that brings up the argument of whether or not we are entitled to anything, with this novel I began to lose my belief in the Malazan world.

I'll still buy all the books and continue recommending them but I really hope it gets better.

This

Are we entitled to be annoyed? I mean I got the sense ICE was being vague for the sake of it as you say and it was the same with SW. I also will continue to buy ICEs books despite losing faith in him and to an extent the Malazan Universe. Maybe SE will pull out a MOI level novel with FOD and other kharkanas novels as hes given a fresh start there near enough, but even then ICE books will be bought and read with disappointment expected, purely to absorb the history he dishes out like water in a desert.

[polishgenius]

While I can understand complaints of things being too vague, though I don't agree myself, I really think some of these complaints are stretching a point.

Wanderer, on 26 January 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Barathol and Humble making the arrows,

Given the amount of people who seemed to work this out straight away, can we really say it was too vague?

Quote

Taya,

We get plenty of character from her. It's shown fairly clearly that she's got a massive ego but a big chip on her shoulder regarding her mummy and it seems that her mum opposing it is a good enough reason for her being for.

Quote

Fisher,

He tells us (well, Brood) explicitly that he likes to witness things; from what we know of him from before it's a short skip to him, being a bard and storyteller, wanting to be there to see the epic events so he can properly tell them; as for helping out, we know he's a good man who can't just stand by and fiddle while Darujhistan burns, so he pitches in.

Quote

the Vitr ( Really? The Shores of Mother Fracking Creation and literally no info????),

Where would we get the info from? Even the person who lives there, Maker, has little more than guesses, but he tells us some. Given that Kiska and Leoman are both still there it's hardly out of the question that we'll be going back there either.

Quote

The Tyrant,

As I said before, every single book set in Darujhistan up till now has loaded us with backstory on the tyrant. This is the one where those pieces click into place - what was there missing, really?

Spoiler

The Moranth,

We find out plenty about the Moranth. As Blackzoid mentioned before, we now know why they wear head-to-toe armour, why they use munitions, and that they used to rule much of the continent before being driven into their mountain by the Seguleh. And we know that the colours are closer to guilds than races. From knowing them before, it would really have made no sense for anyone, even Torvald Nom and his magic power of making friends with difficult people, to rock up and be gifted the secrets of their society.

Quote

Barukanal

What did we really need from him? He really really didn't want to serve the Tyrant but was forced to. He's familiar of old to us, so why did we need more?

Quote

You cannot argue that the Moranth from earlier novels were given any sort of justice in OST- at all!

Well, they did fail to actually achieve anything but I can't say that's true, a Ride-of-the-Valkyries attack on Darujhistan is ace. Their assault fell to a general theme across the book that brute force is not always the answer and so I can see why that may have felt flat - it was a lesson imparted to both the Seguleh and the Moranth but it was the focus for the Seguleh so perhaps had more resonance- but they got some time in the sun.

Quote

My biggest query would be where this series is actually going? Unlike SE, who seems to have some purpose with his stories (the CG storyline predominantly), these standalone versions just jump around from character to character, and I can't for the life of me figure out, what's the end point?

Quote

The world building is becoming very narrow, as is the scope and direction of these stories.

Quote

The MS plot, the referencing the Gardens of the Moon, the Confederation - that was all trivial sidequests that you expect to find as optional in a RPG

You literally just complained that there doesn't seem to be any through-thread then criticised the sections that are obviously building for later things. Now if it turns out that Orchid, or Leoman/Kiska, or whatever have no future relevance, you'll have a point, but you can't write ICE off for that when the base is clearly there to carry points through.

Quote

There is also a very real sense with these stories that death doesn't mean anything, and hence, we shouldn't feel any sympathy when a character dies, because they'll likely be back in one form or another. It is all becoming very romanticised and to be honest, the improvement rate of ICE, is NOT good enough for an author with his established base. No other author would be given the opportunity to peddle what he is peddling. You could find fan fiction that would do the same job.

Much like the previous one where you're criticising the existence of threads that don't seem strictly relevant to this book, it's bizarre that you're using that particular flaw as a stick to beat ICE with in comparison to SE. Even moreso in the case of safe deaths because how in the world does it make sense to criticise ICE, who although he's shown a tendency to preserve characters who should really be dead, hasn't yet brought back anyone who's actually died whereas SE does it all the time, and then say ICE's not living up to the series' quality because of that? Seriously?

Some people seem to be struggling to switch off their SE-expectations when reading ICE and judge the books by what he isn't doing that SE is, while ignoring the things he does better.

Yeah, he's a different writer and in some ways he isn't as good- he certainly doesn't do BIG EPIC SCOPE as well- but in others, in my opinion, he's considerably better, specifically in the low-level, little personal touches he brings to characters, both new and old. Much like, in RotCG, where he made Lasseen a more understandable person, here in a few short pages he made Scillara a lot more likeable, understandable and sympathetic than I ever found her under SE. And Butcher, despite getting very limited page-time, was a plausible viewpoint on a not-too-bright and not-too-nice character who came into soldiering for something it isn't and has to deal with the disparity. Possibly the most realistic actual soldier in the whole series.

[amphibian]

The problem most people had with the Tyrant is that after all those hundreds of pages, nobody knows what it is, how it keeps coming back and why it never succeeds in its only apparent goal of conquering Genabackis. The Tyrant is the Greymane from RotCG/SW of this book.

How did Derudan escape the call that made Vorcan chain herself up? That's also a doozy of a mystery that's never going to be answered.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 29 January 2012 - 07:55 PM

[tiam]

amphibian, on 26 January 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

The problem most people had with the Tyrant is that after all those hundreds of pages, nobody knows what it is, how it keeps coming back and why it never succeeds in its only apparent goal of conquering Genabackis. The Tyrant is the Greymane from RotCG of this book.

How did Derudan escape the call that made Vorcan chain herself up? That's also a doozy of a mystery that's never going to be answered.

Yes the backstory for the Tyrant wasnt actually explored in the book supposedly based around him, as with SW and Greymane

Yes it wasnt as though Derudan just vanished after GOTM. I remember thinking while reading OST what was the point of her being healed by the Andii in TTH if she can simply withdraw from the call.

[Angel]

Okay, so you can pull things apart so that they fit your argument. So can I.

polishgenius, on 26 January 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

You literally just complained that there doesn't seem to be any through-thread then criticised the sections that are obviously building for later things. Now if it turns out that Orchid, or Leoman/Kiska, or whatever have no future relevance, you'll have a point, but you can't write ICE off for that when the base is clearly there to carry points through.

Wrong! Writing him off is exactly what you can do after this many attempts to get it right. You "literally" point out that I point out that there is no 'through thread', then point out that I point out the poor plots of MS, the Confed etc... Do you even get what you're saying? I point out that they are disconnected and irrelevant and don't add to the scope of the story in the slightest, or mystery/intrigue, and you 'literally' point out that I literally point that out... I appreciate that, but please read through what you're writing. World building is all well and good, but it cannot be randomly attached (and weakly done at that), and as ICE's books are standalone (with loose attachments) I don't have to give him a chance to 'carry points through'.

polishgenius, on 26 January 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Much like the previous one where you're criticising the existence of threads that don't seem strictly relevant to this book, it's bizarre that you're using that particular flaw as a stick to beat ICE with in comparison to SE. Even moreso in the case of safe deaths because how in the world does it make sense to criticise ICE, who although he's shown a tendency to preserve characters who should really be dead, hasn't yet brought back anyone who's actually died whereas SE does it all the time, and then say ICE's not living up to the series' quality because of that? Seriously?

I might be wrong here (no, in fact, I'm not), but there were BB's appearing from the dead right? Technically the phrasing 'in these stories' is inclusive phrasing, which includes SE. I suppose you'll say that SE really brought him back?

polishgenius, on 26 January 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Some people seem to be struggling to switch off their SE-expectations when reading ICE and judge the books by what he isn't doing that SE is, while ignoring the things he does better.

Yeah, he's a different writer and in some ways he isn't as good- he certainly doesn't do BIG EPIC SCOPE as well- but in others, in my opinion, he's considerably better, specifically in the low-level, little personal touches he brings to characters, both new and old. Much like, in RotCG, where he made Lasseen a more understandable person, here in a few short pages he made Scillara a lot more likeable, understandable and sympathetic than I ever found her under SE. And Butcher, despite getting very limited page-time, was a plausible viewpoint on a not-too-bright and not-too-nice character who came into soldiering for something it isn't and has to deal with the disparity. Possibly the most realistic actual soldier in the whole series.

I think this is the point right here. What you see as positive changes to characters, many people see as a tainting of already established characters. I was perfectly happy disliking Scilara, why should I suddenly have to like her now? I don't care whether you blame SE or ICE for that but the fact is simple. Like it or not, ICE is writing second and that creates certain expectations in content, characters, quality etc etc. If he can't deliver than people have a right to be dissapointed.

[tiam]

polishgenius, on 26 January 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Yeah, he's a different writer and in some ways he isn't as good- he certainly doesn't do BIG EPIC SCOPE as well- but in others, in my opinion, he's considerably better, specifically in the low-level, little personal touches he brings to characters, both new and old. Much like, in RotCG, where he made Lasseen a more understandable person, here in a few short pages he made Scillara a lot more likeable, understandable and sympathetic than I ever found her under SE. And Butcher, despite getting very limited page-time, was a plausible viewpoint on a not-too-bright and not-too-nice character who came into soldiering for something it isn't and has to deal with the disparity. Possibly the most realistic actual soldier in the whole series.

I dont want to get into a who said what when thing so ill just focus on this

Making Laseen a more accessible character in ROTCG wasnt actually that difficult. We see nothing of her personally throughout the series. The only ounce of personality we really get from her is in DG and BH when shes faces Kalam on both occasions. In DG shes simply the mysterious Empress who speaks with the voice of an Empire. In BH she is slightly more human and Kalam senses some pleading in Laseen to cleanse the newly compromised Claw aswell as Dom and Rel. We see in ROTCG that that pleading was a show (potentially because of the change of authors but well never know im sure) she knew pretty much everything that was happening, every scheme apart from Taya's ambush. It was our first real view and we saw how she felt about the betrayal of Urko and Co and how shes was willing to let them live aslong as they stayed away. Butcher was a very similar soldier to Nait and Suth and while I think ICE writes these well it was hardly new stuff. Nait (who I think appeared in this book) was a lazy guard who got swept up by being a proud soldier not shirking his duty, Suth was a tribal warrior who got humbled into being a good soldier rather than trying to prove himself and Butcher got humbled, leading him to not want to fight and accepting the soldiers lot. I believe his last POV section in this was something like 'all the same us guys. Ami right?' about garrisoning Pale. So really there just the same role of unlikely hero becoming subject to the realities and practicalities of being a soldier.

[polishgenius]

Angel, on 27 January 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

I don't have to give him a chance to 'carry points through'.

Well no, you don't. But that wasn't the point. What you said is that because he's writing standalones there's not much direction to what he's doing overall, while criticising him for the very things that are supposed to be carrying that direction. If you think it's weakly done, okay.
They're only standalone if you consider them only against his own books, though. I know it's presented as a series with a main spine of 10 and ICE writes side-stories, but this is a direct sequel to Toll the Hounds. Much like RotCG was a direct sequel to The Bonehunters and huge chunks of Deadhouse Gates and House of Chains were spent setting it up.
That's not criticism or defence though, it's just an observation of the structure of the series... coz the way it is compared to the way it's presented is going to feel like lying to a lot of people.

Quote

I suppose you'll say that SE really brought him back?

Well of course I'm going to say that. SE killed the Bridgeburners and then he brought them back again and instilled them in the position of High House Death. ICE changed absolutely nothing in their status quo in his use of them.
Or is your argument that Malazan as a whole feels too safe on the death front, because I can agree with you there- but do find it odd that ICE's books are where it seems to have overloaded you.

Quote

I think this is the point right here. What you see as positive changes to characters, many people see as a tainting of already established characters. I was perfectly happy disliking Scilara, why should I suddenly have to like her now?

Well that's fair enough. I was perfectly happy disliking Scilara but was impressed by the fresh perspective ICE brought without really changing her at all, but each to his own.

Quote

Like it or not, ICE is writing second and that creates certain expectations in content, characters, quality etc etc. If he can't deliver than people have a right to be dissapointed.

This, I suspect, is going to be the major sticking point between ICE fans and those who aren't... personally I think that what he's writing is fine in quality (as good as any of SE's last five) and recognisably Malazan (it's not as if he's suddenly turned it into Westeros), but I also think he has no obligation to be writing to SE's strengths rather than his own just because SE got published first.

[QuickTidal]

I think Illy and Cause, and Amph sum up my feelings well, having just finished it.

For a really large chunk I was enjoying and feeling it was ICE's best work yet...which I suppose it still is, but yeah after a while I stopped caring about a lot of the plotlines. Anything I DID care about were things ICE hadn't planned to elaborate on.

I think somewhere around the 400pg mark was when I realized that all the things I wanted I wasn't going to get, and all the things I probably wouldn't have cared much about...I got.

I think B-Movie villain is a PERFECT description of the Tyrant sadly.

While it was nice to get proper insight into the Seguleh, and the Moranth there wasn't enough to make me care.

And yeah, when the Karsa quasi-cameo happened I was like "Cool, what's gonna happen there?"....nothing I guess. After the fact to me that bit felt a bit like pandering. Like Boba Fett being dropped into the redone scene with Jabba in A NEW HOPE....as if to say "Look! I'm here. Ain't that cool?" ...well yeah sure that's cool...but why exactly?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 January 2012 - 03:15 PM