[Sheltatha Lore]

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Hehe, you're amusing SL. So I think I need to clarify that line that you have brought up.

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, we can break it down into a decision tree:

First, how likely is the silenced one to be evil?

If Okaros was UB or BB, he would be in a precarious position considering all the attention he will garner, especially if he posts the wrong pictures and calls even more attention to himself. In general, I think probabilistically speaking, scum are more liable to play it moderately safe on day 1 and hide in the crowd rather than making a ballsy move. That doesn't discount the more likely possibility that UB or BB will be silenced later in the game...

but initially, since the silence probably was submitted to JA before the beginning of the game, I think a silenced person is more likely to be one of us selected at random.

Second, both scum know each other despite not being able to communicate. I think this can play out in several ways, but I think I will hold speculation till later in the day so as not to let the scum try to act in a way opposite to the speculations.

Third and finally, I think there are subtle, maybe unintentional, efforts of people to style themselves in a certain way through their texts. For instance, Osseric with several uses of the phrase "ignorant masses" which I would associate with someone implying they are a townie or even RI role.

Doing a dkt, but this stands out. It is not cool to PI people day one after a few hours into the game and it is even less cool to out inno roles like you just did.

It doesn't really make sense that I would finger Osseric as RI and then vote for him. A more careful read shows that I am considering subtle comments by people that are used to make them seem one way or another (kind of like the ever so popular "he talks about healers and therefore he must be a healer" or alternatively "we townies think" when the person is actually scum).

What I'm actually trying to say is I think Osseric is stressing words that associate him with town ("masses") and rolelessness ("ignorant"). I don't actually think he is RI. I think he is scum trying to blend in. I still remember that game, maybe 10 or so games back?, where scum slipped up and talked about town as if he was not a part of it. A quick lynch of his ass turned up the fact that he was indeed scum (a very surprising mistake for one of the Malazan mafia people, but there it was).

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

Fuck, wrong person.

Remove vote
Vote Karatallid.

So was there something else that made me vote worthy or was that the only thing your case on me was based upon?

And I've been wanting to simplify that post that you so kindly quoted. On day 1 in a Benses game, I think we have these three case categories:

• The Silenced - scum or town?
• Interactions Between Players - do we expect a certain behavior for scum (distancing or interaction) and can we call out people because of this expectation?
• Word/phrase Choices - does the way a player speak or the words and phrases they use indicate their orientation in the game? are they signaling? are they implying something?

Initially, at least the last two points are what most mafia games are built on day 1. Later on we will have the lynch CF and a line of voters to analyze, but day 1 is about getting at subtleties and trying to pick a needle out of a haystack (which is why lynches on day 1 are notoriously unsuccessful). Also, day 1 is considered successful with large amounts of thoughtful text, so we can get reads on players, which is why, as i believe would be the case with lynching Okaros, day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

1. is wifom,

2. is only to be established by visible interaction, the best of which is building a train on someone and see who vehemently defends;
3. is what you use on osseric and I use on you. The issue is this: both our cases are based on lingo. You say Osseric fails to blend in, I say you are signalling him as a potential town (roled) player, which is bad conduct for a townie. If you manage to get the lynch on him, that's the test of your theory. If not, then you singled him out. Scum then has two options: let him live and see what town does (aka sowing doubt) or kill him. Which is obviously a loss for town (which he is then proven to be), and doubly so if he is roled.

Your nr. 3 there could be applied in opposition of pretty much any case made on anything other than a direct find.

Yes. Except that in most cases, there is no mention of 'he might be roled', just 'he acts scummy because of so-and-so' which could be considered serious signalling.

[Sorrit]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

I've found that treating the herd as a bunch of morons becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. For once I thought it could be interesting to approach this game as a gathering of functioning people. The worst thing that could happen is that I'll end up being justified in stamping the entire HHM with a great red MORON stamp for all future reference.

It's a win win situation really.

Now, following my line of reasoning Okaros ends up being lynched through no fault - no action really - of his own. It's frustrating for him to be sure, and I would have covered SH in the liquid ejaculations of my rage if I had been in his position. All the same it seems to me to be a good choice at this point simply for the information it will provide.

see, it is this underlined bit that I so dislike. It is very arbitrary, "take one for the team". Any townie ought to be willing to do that but I just can't see how it is going to help on a day 1, when we have so many people still trying to find their feet. Arbitrary lynches are useful to close lines of enquiry and to settle claim-and-counterclaim reveals, but not to open them.
I share your hope for mafia to be a game of individuals instead of becoming a herd-animal being led, though.

Day 1 will from the beginning to the end have many people trying to find their feet. Some might find them by the end of the day, others somewhere around day 5. I don't see how that is entirely relevant to my line of reasoning. If we're going to wait until every player has provided meaningful contributions on day 1 we'll in all likelihood wait until the day times out.

I see this as a valuable direction to take. This whole wait until everyone gets a chance to weigh in simply doesn't work because not everyone will.

Mind you, that sentence wasn't meant as a take one for the team sort of thing. It was more of an apology to be honest.

[Sorrit]

Eloth, on 10 January 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

When that is said: It's a shitty deal for Okaros, but the discussion that has blossomed up as a result of his silencing makes me think he'll be the best option for a lynch today. If he turns up innocent there's some value in examining his attackers, and if he turns up guilty, well then we've got our work cut out for us.

Okaros

You come on after osseric receives 3 votes and agree with what he says and vote along with him, which I find interesting.

I follow my reasoning instead of the majority opinion.

[Karatallid]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Hehe, you're amusing SL. So I think I need to clarify that line that you have brought up.

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Well, we can break it down into a decision tree:

First, how likely is the silenced one to be evil?

If Okaros was UB or BB, he would be in a precarious position considering all the attention he will garner, especially if he posts the wrong pictures and calls even more attention to himself. In general, I think probabilistically speaking, scum are more liable to play it moderately safe on day 1 and hide in the crowd rather than making a ballsy move. That doesn't discount the more likely possibility that UB or BB will be silenced later in the game...

but initially, since the silence probably was submitted to JA before the beginning of the game, I think a silenced person is more likely to be one of us selected at random.

Second, both scum know each other despite not being able to communicate. I think this can play out in several ways, but I think I will hold speculation till later in the day so as not to let the scum try to act in a way opposite to the speculations.

Third and finally, I think there are subtle, maybe unintentional, efforts of people to style themselves in a certain way through their texts. For instance, Osseric with several uses of the phrase "ignorant masses" which I would associate with someone implying they are a townie or even RI role.

Doing a dkt, but this stands out. It is not cool to PI people day one after a few hours into the game and it is even less cool to out inno roles like you just did.

It doesn't really make sense that I would finger Osseric as RI and then vote for him. A more careful read shows that I am considering subtle comments by people that are used to make them seem one way or another (kind of like the ever so popular "he talks about healers and therefore he must be a healer" or alternatively "we townies think" when the person is actually scum).

What I'm actually trying to say is I think Osseric is stressing words that associate him with town ("masses") and rolelessness ("ignorant"). I don't actually think he is RI. I think he is scum trying to blend in. I still remember that game, maybe 10 or so games back?, where scum slipped up and talked about town as if he was not a part of it. A quick lynch of his ass turned up the fact that he was indeed scum (a very surprising mistake for one of the Malazan mafia people, but there it was).

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Anyhow,

Vote Osseric

For pointing out someone might be RI (doing a PI job this early in the game? wow) or potentially signalling someone might be roled (which is always a nono).

Fuck, wrong person.

Remove vote
Vote Karatallid.

So was there something else that made me vote worthy or was that the only thing your case on me was based upon?

And I've been wanting to simplify that post that you so kindly quoted. On day 1 in a Benses game, I think we have these three case categories:

• The Silenced - scum or town?
• Interactions Between Players - do we expect a certain behavior for scum (distancing or interaction) and can we call out people because of this expectation?
• Word/phrase Choices - does the way a player speak or the words and phrases they use indicate their orientation in the game? are they signaling? are they implying something?

Initially, at least the last two points are what most mafia games are built on day 1. Later on we will have the lynch CF and a line of voters to analyze, but day 1 is about getting at subtleties and trying to pick a needle out of a haystack (which is why lynches on day 1 are notoriously unsuccessful). Also, day 1 is considered successful with large amounts of thoughtful text, so we can get reads on players, which is why, as i believe would be the case with lynching Okaros, day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

1. is wifom,

2. is only to be established by visible interaction, the best of which is building a train on someone and see who vehemently defends;
3. is what you use on osseric and I use on you. The issue is this: both our cases are based on lingo. You say Osseric fails to blend in, I say you are signalling him as a potential town (roled) player, which is bad conduct for a townie. If you manage to get the lynch on him, that's the test of your theory. If not, then you singled him out. Scum then has two options: let him live and see what town does (aka sowing doubt) or kill him. Which is obviously a loss for town (which he is then proven to be), and doubly so if he is roled.

Wait what? First of all, you say both of our cases are based on lingo and somehow that makes you correct and me scummy? I don't see how implying Osseric is faking being town and voting for him (especially with all the other points and votes he's accrued since then) is the same as marking him as potential town.

And then you go on to say that either he gets lynched and tests my theory or gets highlighted ("singled out") and then NK'ed or lynched on day 2, which is a very likely course of events for anyone who is under a lot of suspicion and is high on the lynch priority list. You say that this is "obviously a loss for town" which makes me think actually that you are being stupid and trying to save someone you know. I mean you seem to be twisting my words and trying really hard to save Osseric.

So here's now my problem. I could say, "whoa, I should back off so I don't nail one of our lover pairs" and essentially give you two a PI pass, or I could say "scum are really nice and stupid this game , let's get rid of one of the two!"

I'm really not sure how to approach a reveal, even unintentional, this early in the game.

Remove Vote

till we get more input.

[Karatallid]

Ok, well I thought that there would be more discussion, but since it is not coming about (and I have a life to lead, unfortunately) I guess I will leave things where they are and hope I can break away to get in a read-over and vote before the day ends (not looking promising though, sigh).

Damn, where the fuck did everyone go?

[Sheltatha Lore]

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Wait what? First of all, you say both of our cases are based on lingo and somehow that makes you correct and me scummy? I don't see how implying Osseric is faking being town and voting for him (especially with all the other points and votes he's accrued since then) is the same as marking him as potential town.

And then you go on to say that either he gets lynched and tests my theory or gets highlighted ("singled out") and then NK'ed or lynched on day 2, which is a very likely course of events for anyone who is under a lot of suspicion and is high on the lynch priority list. You say that this is "obviously a loss for town" which makes me think actually that you are being stupid and trying to save someone you know. I mean you seem to be twisting my words and trying really hard to save Osseric.

So here's now my problem. I could say, "whoa, I should back off so I don't nail one of our lover pairs" and essentially give you two a PI pass, or I could say "scum are really nice and stupid this game , let's get rid of one of the two!"

I'm really not sure how to approach a reveal, even unintentional, this early in the game.

Remove Vote

till we get more input.

I am not trying to save him. If I am aiming to save anyone, then it's Okaros because the proposal for lynching him is on the ground that he is the best lynch when he hasn't done anything scummy. I would prefer lynching a scummy player.
This is the second time you mention someone being PI (FOR FUCK'S SAKE, YOU CAN'T EVER PI ANYONE DAY 1, TIME IS WAY TOO SHORT. THAT ABBREVIATION SHOULD NEVER POP UP BEFORE DAY 3), and now you bring up a potential lover issue, too. Way to go, hero.

There is no dilemma or problem. You vote who you think is scummy. You gather info and present it to sway people to vote along. What you don't do, is potentially damage your own team by dragging potential TOWN roles out into the open, which, whether you're right or wrong, will make a juicy target out of them on account of baseless speculation, or potentially give people an idea of the innocence of someone who might well be scum. These are all unwanted effects. Only drag in relations if you are certain of your case or the relation is your case.

[Karatallid]

Fucking a. I remember you mentioning that I was calling Osseric town when in fact I was indicating I thought he was scum. And then you would not let go of your misconception, compounding it with thoughts about screwing poor Osseric over, and hurting town. I do believe you've dug your own hole sir (and I hope to heaven you aren't town, for our sake).

[Karatallid]

Now I really have to go. Starting to run late. Later all.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Fucking a. I remember you mentioning that I was calling Osseric town when in fact I was indicating I thought he was scum. And then you would not let go of your misconception, compounding it with thoughts about screwing poor Osseric over, and hurting town. I do believe you've dug your own hole sir (and I hope to heaven you aren't town, for our sake).

Well, put your vote where you mouth is.

[Osseric]

Olar Ethil, on 10 January 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Osseric, on 09 January 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What's the easiest way to not get caught up in day 1 retardation?

To not partake.

How does one not partake?

By not posting. But if one does not post, one gets in trouble with the anti-lowposter committee.

How does one avoid these consequences?

By becoming silenced, so one's poor or low content posting cannot be helped.

Who has the power to silence?

Scum.

scummy; fucking; post. scum, scum, scum. THANKS SCUM FOR BOTHERING TO WIFOM THE ENTIRE GAME RIGHT FROM THE START

by the way whoever said vizzinian gets rep after this game. god damn if that isn't a great reference.

I know it's WIFOM. It's not the idea itself I'm arguing, it's the idea that we can test it on day 1 without much bother.

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

When that is said: It's a shitty deal for Okaros, but the discussion that has blossomed up as a result of his silencing makes me think he'll be the best option for a lynch today. If he turns up innocent there's some value in examining his attackers, and if he turns up guilty, well then we've got our work cut out for us.

Okaros

Finally someone sees what I'm doing here.

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

When that is said: It's a shitty deal for Okaros, but the discussion that has blossomed up as a result of his silencing makes me think he'll be the best option for a lynch today. If he turns up innocent there's some value in examining his attackers, and if he turns up guilty, well then we've got our work cut out for us.

Okaros

I disagree.
In every Benses game that has been run on this forum, there is a whole lot of wifom surrounding the first silenced one. That does not make him an informative lynch. It makes him an easy and lazy lynch because he can contribute so little and because his posts stand out while containing very little. 90% of his attackers base their attacks on wifom, the other 10% on misunderstanding what he is saying, like the 'lining up' bit.

Secondly, you create an environment where either the silenced guy is going to be the automatic back-up lynch target, or where people pointing out potential scumminess of the silenced one are going to be attacked if he turns up inno on account of picking on him when he couldn't defend himself. It is day one. We have long odds of lynching scum (but we should lynch). We can afford to wait, to lynch a low-poster or someone who stands out, rather than going for the "informative" lynch - which is all conjecture especially if we get a "greater good" lynch where everyone who votes just posts "I think this lynch gives the most information".
That's too easy a cop-out for people to jump on the bandwagon without risking their skin if the lynchee comes up inno.

Instead of lynching him today, give him a chance to talk tomorrow, if you then don't like what he has to say, make a case.
For the person silenced tomorrow, scummy behavior on day 1 can be attached to cases, that person then has the additional handicap of being silenced when he wants to make a defense, but the grounds of condemning him are at the least based on a case of scumminess.

Though I agree with your reasoning I think it is partially based on a misunderstanding of my reasons for voting Okaros. Might be I wasn't clear enough originally, I do have a habit of assuming that everyone else follow the same convoluted thought process that I do.

My argument is not that it's inherently right to lynch the silenced player on day 1. In fact, I would not have advocated that originally. However, the polarization (perhaps a bit too strong a word for the situation, but it serves all the same) of the thread following Osseric's original attack on Okaros has in my opinion created an environment where the lynch of Okaros will produce more viable information than any other choice at this point.

You might be right that such a choice could lead to a general distrust of silenced players, but it does not have to. It's a simple choice we make and most players should be able to recognize the reason for that distrust and make choices accordingly. To an extent I feel your argument is similar to the whole idea that some people are to disruptive to be allowed to live. No one are inherently disruptive, we make the choice to allow them to be and I feel it would be the same with your theory as to the consequence of lynching Okaros today.

SOMEONE IS GETTING IT OHMYGOD.

Now that you pointed it out, the info from some other people who haven't posted yet won't help, though.

[Osseric]

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

I did it after Okaros showed us that he was silenced. So you dislike the idea of people jumping on the bandwagon, as pushing a vote against an innocent player, when it's simply me testing my own theory and if he does come out innocent you can see who followed me onto the innocent train.

You'd advocate my lynch based on me pushing something on day 1. Sigh. I would never push this lynch on day 2+ as it's not realistic to argue the testing of WIFOM on a day where actual connections and strong cases can be made... I feel like people aren't even reading my argument. Only adding to that is (to steal Sorrit's word) polarization of the voting here.

Karatallid, I think, was suggesting that the igorant masses thing was a subtly dropped hint from scum rather than something a roled town would say, but yeah it definitely could have been outing our healer or something, it just doesn't seem like he even considered that, and it's not true anyhow.

^Kara confirms this 2 posts down, but I'm not going to delete it.

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

That's dangerous, as any of the low posters could be our roled players. They could also be the killer, though. It's a hard balance indeed.

[Atrahal]

I'm back, a quick look shows we're still on the same ground

[Osseric]

Okay so it's pretty obvious from my postings that I'm either symp or RI. I'm really putting myself out there with a theory that isn't so normal. I'm RI, but there's no way for you to know that for sure unless you test it.

I'm saying don't vote me today, as that's wasteful. If we vote Okaros today, and he comes up scum, you have me PIed. If he comes up inno, you can vote me tomorrow if you really feel the need. The point is that voting me today doesn't do anything, really. If Okaros ends up inno, hopefully roleless, then you can fucking vote me if your damn minds won't let you do otherwise. Losing me only loses town a vocal player, nothing more. But I'd much prefer seeing Okaros dead today, so you guys can at least have something to work with (Sorrit backing me up, or GL vehemently opposing me).

As to Okaros being knocked off without being able to defend himself, sorry if I'm being callous, but OH WELL. It's mafia, someone has to be lynched day 1. Sometimes you just fucking die. I'm not going to cry if I get voted off day 1.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Osseric, on 10 January 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 10 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorrit, on 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Does that even make sense? I've been proof reading one thesis too many it feels like.

It does make sense. I do think that you're a bit naïve in overestimating the intelligence of the herd that is mafia sheeple. Time and again, people jump on any safe bandwagon is sight (or will create one through precedence) until we lynch scum as a lucky break. In this case, we have two different games rolled into one, on account of having to start over after completely after lynching BB1.


With that in mind, I'd rather lynch players standing out and start searching for scum straightaway rather than try and sort out the day 1 environment through the more or less sacrificial lynch of Okaros (naturally, he might be scum, I'm not PI--ing him), as you advocate his lynch basically without regard to what he might contribute.

In that light, I'd advocate an Osseric vote on account of being the first to attack the easy lynchable content-low player. I'll have to read back, but if this happened before Okaros even posted (he was late to the party, iirc), it might also hint at foresight of Okaros' condition (wifom argument, but interesting).

Mind, I do think Karatallid was scummy enough and I'll keep my vote there for now.

I did it after Okaros showed us that he was silenced. So you dislike the idea of people jumping on the bandwagon, as pushing a vote against an innocent player, when it's simply me testing my own theory and if he does come out innocent you can see who followed me onto the innocent train.

You'd advocate my lynch based on me pushing something on day 1. Sigh. I would never push this lynch on day 2+ as it's not realistic to argue the testing of WIFOM on a day where actual connections and strong cases can be made... I feel like people aren't even reading my argument. Only adding to that is (to steal Sorrit's word) polarization of the voting here.

Karatallid, I think, was suggesting that the igorant masses thing was a subtly dropped hint from scum rather than something a roled town would say, but yeah it definitely could have been outing our healer or something, it just doesn't seem like he even considered that, and it's not true anyhow.

^Kara confirms this 2 posts down, but I'm not going to delete it.

Karatallid, on 10 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

day 1 lynches often are about cleaning out deadwood (non-contributors, low posters, and easy kills).

That's dangerous, as any of the low posters could be our roled players. They could also be the killer, though. It's a hard balance indeed.

It's not that you push, it is what you push. Call me an obnoxious dickhead, but I'd rather lynch someone who does not contribute without the added circumstance (or even better, someone who is scummy in thought and word), even though I do get that you want to test a theory that makes sense on day 1. I've already laid out my argument against it on why it would be a bad move for team scum (which failed to convince completely, which I'll have to live with. ).

I'm fine with you testing that theory, too - if you can gather enough votes for it, awesome. More power to you. Unfortunately, that theory is wifom-based and that is why I will likely not vote for it unless it becomes the only option we have, because acting on wifom is essentially a gamble. That being said, it may be a better use of the day 1 lynch than we usually see.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Osseric, on 10 January 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Okay so it's pretty obvious from my postings that I'm either symp or RI. I'm really putting myself out there with a theory that isn't so normal. I'm RI, but there's no way for you to know that for sure unless you test it.

I'm saying don't vote me today, as that's wasteful. If we vote Okaros today, and he comes up scum, you have me PIed. If he comes up inno, you can vote me tomorrow if you really feel the need. The point is that voting me today doesn't do anything, really. If Okaros ends up inno, hopefully roleless, then you can fucking vote me if your damn minds won't let you do otherwise. Losing me only loses town a vocal player, nothing more. But I'd much prefer seeing Okaros dead today, so you guys can at least have something to work with (Sorrit backing me up, or GL vehemently opposing me).

As to Okaros being knocked off without being able to defend himself, sorry if I'm being callous, but OH WELL. It's mafia, someone has to be lynched day 1. Sometimes you just fucking die. I'm not going to cry if I get voted off day 1.

To be pedantic bear: no, you won't be auto-PIed. If Okaros comes up as BB, we start all over and everyone is a potential scum. Only when we lynch UB can we PI you.
I'll agree that if you are scum, you have balls of brass the size of church bells, but even then, you can look back and say: "oi, I based this on a wifom theory, you all went along by voting with me, so clearly you figured it had enough merit, not my bad UB didnt follow my train of thought."
Which is a decent enough defense for a vocal player leading the pack to a 50-50 lynch, really, because everyone going along knows they're doing so to test a theory.

[Osseric]

WIFOM is considered a bad argument to make because it causes circular discussion that does not benifit town. Fact.

I am not arguing WIFOM, I'm arguing that we test a WIFOM theory on day 1. You're right, it is a gamble. If we're going to gamble, day 1 is the time.

WIFOM has a bad reputation for a reason, but I'm doing absolutely no harm by considering it now.

[Osseric]

Forgot about starting over.

Guess it wouldn't PI me. Oh well, it would still be nice.

[Okaros]

[Okaros]

[Okaros]