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Education (Western or Chinese Tiger mum style)

#1 User is offline   Anomander Rake 

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:11 PM

There is currently an interesting programme on BBC in the UK called 'Britain's Chinese Tiger Mums', following a few Chinese mums bringing up their children.

In UK, the Chinese ethnic group are the highest achievers at School. In recent world rankings for 15-Years old's, China came out top, South Korea second, with Finland slipping to third.

The Chinese tiger mum's method, means children learn Violin/Piano, have extra homework, learn languages, no TV during weekdays, have weekend classes in Mandarin, further English etc.

What do you think is a good balance? Is the western method better or chinese method?

One of the things I've noticed with with Chinese/South Korean school system is that students start school much earlier in the morning and finish a lot later compared to UK schools (which have gotten shorter from even when I went, lol). A lot of parents in those countries send their kids to after school classes, and it is a very very competitive environment. But it has too much rote-learning and memorisation, which can stifle creativity.

I personally think a balance between the 2 would be ideal. In the UK there is a perception that kids hang out on the streets because they are bored, haven't got anything to do etc. I think having after school classes such as in learning languages (as we're becoming more interconnected globally), in subjects the child is having most trouble in, and a physical activity (sports, taekwando, etc or even chess and stuff) would be good for a couple of hours. I think this will help in discipline, keeping them occupied (therefore less likely to get into trouble or hang out with wrong crowd), and hopefully get parents involved more.

When I was a kid, I did have 1 after school class, but I actually would have liked to have done more personally, especially something like learning Mandarin, Japanese, help with my weaker subjects, doing Taekwando or maybe Dance classes (Street dance style, help increase flexibility and do flips, lol). Those skills sure would be handy now. I never watched much TV during weekdays (Weekend mornings for the time for me ;).

Would you have minded doing these after school classes, or not?

Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b019873g
http://www.channel4....oute-to-success
My linkhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2082304/Meet-Britains-Chinese-Tiger-Mums-Practice-makes-perfect.html
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#2 User is offline   JLV 

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:42 PM

I'm in my senior year of highschool. I don't feel comfortable commenting on middle school or less, but by highschool kids know what they like to do. The problem with making kids go to after school stuff is it makes them hate everything if they don't enjoy what they're doing.

For example, when I was younger my dad made me play baseball, no matter how much I hated it. Guess what? I hate all sports now.

If I had a writing or book club deal available to me, I would 100% attend. Unfortunately after school activities are severely limited in most parts of the US, so I don't have anything besides sports and academic challenge.
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#3 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 12:37 AM

The woman in the US who wrote the book on Tiger Moms actually kind of backed off of it since then due to some criticism from her adult daughter (who isn't estranged or anything, she just had her own opinion). I think that mother was still trying to reconcile how she was raised with how she was raising her own children, and with the feedback reached an even stronger epiphany.

The Tiger method does make some sense in a kind of practice-makes-perfect way. If you've ever read Jackie Chan's autobio, then you kind of get a sense of the extreme rigor he and Sammo Hung went through at the opera school, and how it laid the groundwork for their success. But you also obviously lose other virtues in the midst of that: freedom of choice, warmth and affection, etc.

There's certainly something to be said for parents instilling a work ethic in their children, but also not living vicariously through them or being hung up on legacy and all that. There's plenty of room along the spectrum of styles for good parenting, but I think what's most important is to include both reasonable positive and negative reinforcement. Leaving one or the other out creates potential imbalance for sure.

As far as after school programs go, I think they're awesome. One of my good friends actually works for a great campus in Los Angeles and the good it does for the kids is definitely observable. Inspiring interest and purpose and even just sheer curiosity in kids is invaluable.
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#4 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:31 AM

Who ever said knowledge is everything? I'm fine with kids being heavily involved in after school programs and other extra-curriculars, but don't make it purely academic. Kids will be doing enough academics in schools and if you over-focus on academics they will suffer in all the other departments. A balanced approach at first, and then as they get older you can give them more opportunity to narrow the focus (at which point if they are really, really into academics then fine do extra-curriculars of that).

Of course the worst part is parents forcing the kids to do things they don't like.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

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#5 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:09 AM

My parents forced me to take piano, and to read books.

Neither of which I regret now, so I think sometimes you gotta force kids to do stuff they don't want, for their own good.

Not that I hated reading, but I was intensely jealous of my friends who got the latest video games while I got 2150 year old classics.
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#6 User is offline   LinearPhilosopher 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 03:23 AM

all work and no play make a dull boy or so they say.

You needs a proper work/play balance. I remeber listening to a ideas podcast (a cbc media production) about "the rushed child". In these children who are initiated to early into school or arent given proper play time have heightened stress levels and are less productive in the long run. Stress, something that we find in teenagers and adults has been found in children. Think of the implications of this. There's also tons of empirical evidence and many advances into the field of child development that forcing someone to learn something to a certain extent stop working, i believe its what you call a diminishing return.

At the same time you can't just let the kid be, you need to push him, whether hes willing or not because he doesnt have the desire/determination/discipline to do many things that will benefit him in the long run. Things like reading, sports,music, extra curriculars are something you have to push at one point. As i child i had 0 will to follow things through i just did whatever i pleased. My parents gave up eventually. I didnt have the determination back then and i wish i did, or that my parents may have been able to push me further.

I espcially regret giving up fencing as kid (had i kept it up id probably be at national level by now, instead im working 2x/3x harder then i did as a kid and it takes me forever to make gains at times), and i regret giving up choir (wish i could still sing)

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 06 January 2012 - 03:24 AM

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#7 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 02:19 PM

I'm pretty sure I had a British Tiger Mum. Between the ages of about 8 and 14 I had extra homework, learned a musical instrument (2 for a while) and another language, was in the school orchestra, went to classes after school, did a sport, dancing, swimming, St John's Ambulance and the Brownies. I picked some up and dropped others along the way so I wasn't busy every night after school but definitely most nights. As an adult, I look back and think it was a bit too much and I really hated some of the things and had to be dragged there (Brownies springs to mind, fucking Brownies! At least Cubs and Scouts did exciting things back then, in Brownies I had to earn a "Hostess" badge by making Brown Owl cups of tea and a "Charity" badge by knitting cardigans for starving Ethiopians - this was the late 80s/early 90s. What a waste of time! I'm sure my mother enjoyed her Monday nights free though). It dropped off when I was 14 because I got too stroppy and tall to be dragged to any of them but a lot of the stuff I learned has stood me in good stead and helped broaden my horizons. While it makes a good story about my pushy mother I'm glad I did it all now - except Brownies - particularly the academic stuff because I did go to a very shit school and needed the extra classes to make up for it.
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#8 User is offline   McLovin 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:47 PM

Parents have to give kids what they need first and what they want second. The controversy lies in how you define "need."

Does a kid need to learn the piano? No. But what else can piano training do? It teaches them about practice and perseverance. It exposes them to types of music they may not otherwise be exposed to. So even if your kids hate it, the journey can be worth more than the destination.

On the other hand, research is showing that overscheduling your kid can inhibit their creativity and intuition. We're raising great test-takers who are shit at problem-solving and discovery, not to mention social skills. So you have to balance the needs of participating in activities vs. the need for downtime and free play and just hanging out with other kids.

IMO it's really about creating a whole person, not necessarily racking up achievements.
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#9 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:09 PM

View Postworrywort, on 06 January 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

If you've ever read Jackie Chan's autobio, then you kind of get a sense of the extreme rigor he and Sammo Hung went through at the opera school, and how it laid the groundwork for their success. But you also obviously lose other virtues in the midst of that: freedom of choice, warmth and affection, etc.


Didn't know this existed.

*runs off to find a copy*
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#10 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:17 PM

I think balance is key.

I have a few Asian friends who's parents pushed them like this, but more often than not those kids now are SO obsessed with being successful and rich that everything else just doesn't matter to them.

For example this girl whose parents pushed her to become a lawyer, she now is one, but her parents putting so much importance on her job has made her love life shit...and worse it has made her totally money-grubbing in relation to guys. If he isn't rich and job oriented, she has no interest in him....the catch 22 being a guy who was rich and job oriented won't have any time to "love" her.

That said, there is something to be said against Western laziness when it comes to school which offers us the flip side of the style-coin, and that's no good either. We can't have an entire generation on welfare because they couldn't be bothered to study. My niece is a prime example of a kid who is really smart, but won't apply herself and her marks suffer...and they shouldn't.

Balance between the two styles would be ideal.

Example: Allow your kids to watch TV during the week, but make sure they watch stuff that helps them learn. My stepfather allows his two sons to watch TV during the week, the BBC Nature series DVD's PLANET EARTH ect. and they LOVE it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 06 January 2012 - 05:18 PM

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#11 User is offline   powerclaw 

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:13 PM

As someone who's finished Highschool in Canada a few years ago and who's parents got their education in Russia I can safely say that North American education lags FAR behind what most of the rest of the world is doing. In Canada they fairly recently made Highschool 4 years instead of the 5 that was before and back when I was in it there was a lot of talk about how "students are more stressed, don't have time to learn, too much learning crammed in four years". When I discussed this with my parents they just laughed. I was a diligent student and did ALL homework and studied for ALL exams but they would constantly ask me whether I even had any homework. The thing is they used to have to work for at least 3-4 hours a night just to keep up in Highschool. They learned Calculus starting in Gr 10 and had SO much more reading. Their highschool was like our university. By the time your in university though it kind of evens out which means that the jump from highschool is substantial. Even then, the majority of students make this transition no problem, meaning that they were not living up to their potential before.

My point is that students are really coddled in Canada right up until they go to University and there is no incentive for most of us to further our education and take after-school classes. Why do extra work when I can get through highschool with flying colours without it? I'm not complaining, I had a great time in highschool doing the things I liked and really only doing five or six projects/tests which made me sweat in the whole 4 years. I do think however that I didn't reach anywhere near my full potential until I starting paying thousands of dollars in University.

There's something to be said for creativity and intuition and unstructured playtime, but were so far away from pushing kids too hard in Canada that it's laughable to be worried about that. Many people are jealous of those over-achieving asian/european/other people who seem to excel at everything. There was even an article called "Too Asian?" or something in Macleans Magazine about how highschool kids pick less reputable schools because they don't want to compete with hard-working immigrants and want to get the "university experience". This was about University of Waterloo, which I attend, and just made me laugh. There is a quote from a Canadian girl who would rather go to Queens and have fun. How hard work can be seen as anything other than admirable is beyond me and it really speaks to the way kids here are educated.

I realized too late that this became a slightly off-topic rant and I apologize ;)
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#12 User is offline   McLovin 

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

You're not the first person to point out this phenomenon.

The difference you mention there involve tracking of kids into either college-prep or vocational tracks in high school. In America, the latter has largely gone away under the ideal that everyone should go to college (an ideal shaped by the destruction of the US middle class due to manufacturing outsourcing). So now you have kids in a college prep curriculum who, 30 yrs ago, would never have been allowed in. We can't kick them out, so instead we dumb it down. As a result, more and more college freshmen in the US have to take remedial math and English before they can even start their proper coursework. This is why it takes a US kid more than 4 years to finish college nowadays. Which increases their debt burden, which makes their degree worth less.

But what's the alternative, not going to college and clawing your way up to assistant manager of a McDonald's?
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#13 User is offline   Una 

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:57 AM

Let's hear it for the Tiger Mum! I have one. Sure I was a whiny, lazy little brat. What kid isn't? She worked so many extra hours to scrape up enough money to send me to a decent school. (Apparently the public one in our neighborhood was crap. Poor immigrant family and all, couldn't afford a house in the posh neighborhoods with the well-funded schools.) She stayed firm no matter how much I whined about doing extra homework exercises or Chinese school. Nobody likes Chinese school. Who wants to get up and go to school and take another language quiz on Saturday morning when everyone else is sleeping or watching cartoons? But it sure is easier learning a language as a kid. But living Vancouver, I would have felt the need sooner or later, but if I had given up and waited until I was grown up, it would have been harder. If nothing else, she forced me to learn discipline. I don't think I would have made it as well through uni or med school without that discipline. Frankly, I don't think I would have made it INTO med school without her support. I'm a little bit clever, but I'm not THAT clever, so once you hit a certain point, you need the hard work to go the rest of the distance.


I was arguing with a friend about this when the article first came out. Why do Asian parents all want their kids to become doctors or lawyers? They should be happy even if their kid is a starving artist as long as the kid is happy. Well, it just doesn't work that way, for them. It's as simple as no Asian parent wants to see their kid STARVE. If you are starving, it's impossible to be happy. They would rather see you successful and unhappy than unsuccessful and unhappy. Because if you are successful, the logic follows that sooner or later, happiness will come when other necessary pieces fall into place. BTW, there is no such thing as unsuccessful and happy. That's crazy talk, as far as most Asians are concerned. Besides, a lot of them come from places where social programs/welfare is almost nil, so if you are very unsuccessful, you might end up on the street and starve for real. So you gotta get your act together and figure out what you are going to do in your life to make sure you get yourself fed somehow. And it's the parents' job to make sure you do. It is no accident that a colloquial term in Cantonese for "work" literally translates to "searching for food." Now, what I've also realized since that conversation is there is another piece to this. For over 1000 years, the way into the upper classes was by imperial examination. They were open to anyone. You could theoretically be a dirt poor farmer's son, study hard, sit the exams, become a magistrate, and thereby elevate yourself and your future offspring to the elite class. Let's be real. Being elite class sure beats being a dirt poor farmer. Of course, in practice, to score well on the exams, you needed a really good education. Only rich people could afford to hire tutors good enough to pass a high level exam. Nevertheless, to put it in Western terms, the message was that you could elevate yourself from a serf to a lord if you were smart enough, hard-working enough, and educated enough. While I was going to school or the library as a small child, my Canadian teachers would tell stories about princes and princesses that lived happily ever after by doing something brave. Killing dragons or something. That's all well and good. Being brave and strong is cool. I kid you not but my mother was telling me children's stories at home about this or that grave-digger's/farmer's/widow's son who somehow learned his lesson about the value of hard work, studied hard, and eventually grew up to pass the civil service exams or become a famous poet (classical Chinese culture practically idolizes poets) and live happily ever after. And took his mother to live with him on his new estate and made sure she never had to starve another day ever again, because he was such a respectful son and she sacrificed so much for his education. When you put it into that kind of a cultural context, can you see how after a thousand years of that people might put that much value on education? These days, there's not much money in the civil service, but a profession such as doctoring and lawyering is a close enough modern day equivalent, so that's what they chase.

Anyway, a little tangential to the topic, but I see a lot more kids from Mainland China over here than I used to. Since the whole country opened up, we've been able to see more what it looks like on the inside. The competition is fierce. The rich-poor disparity is way more than what anything we in Canada are used to seeing and the population is so big there's not enough resources for everyone. I don't think even the Hong Kong kids of my generation were this stressed. Getting that university spot is literally the difference between a life of obscurity and poverty and a life of riches and prosperity. There is no in-between for them. Success or die trying. My mother is a teacher and she says she's had kids in her class where the whole village pooled their money to send the kid to school in Canada because they thought he would be smart enough to make something of himself. The amount of pressure they must be under makes me want to cry.

This post has been edited by Una: 06 March 2012 - 06:01 AM

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#14 User is offline   powerclaw 

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:37 PM

Very good point Corporal. The whole double-whammy of cultural pressure to succeed in studies and the modern day competition for any sort of education (starting from getting into a good High School, right? That's the equivalent of getting into university stress for 13 year-olds) would make it crazy for any mom NOT to be a hard-ass. I was actually struck by this when I was watching Anime and the characters wish each other "Do the best that you can" instead of the American "Good luck". That right there is what defines the difference between the two approaches for me. What the hell does luck have to do with a test of your abilities if you're actually prepared for it?

When you immigrate though, if there not a change in your situation? What about adapting to a new environment? I know that those same hard-wired hard-working ethics will still get you places and make you successful no matter where you go, but now you don't have to sacrifice quite as much of yourself to get there. You can be very successful, rich, and take care of your aging parents while doing other things. Being driven into a medical career when all you want to be doing is making $150000/year being an architect seems a bit strange. Most people don't want to be starving artists but at the same time most don't particularly want to be dentists either.

I'm just curious.
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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:46 PM

It's this exact learning environment that makes China the world leader in lowest-quality academic papers. You can know all the factoids, you can cram all the tables, but it doesn't make you any more insightful. It doesn't teach you how to think, it teaches you how to cram.

And that's perfectly useful, so long as you're just doing mathematical proofs or making sure your power plant operates within prescribed tolerances. But it doesn't create, at least, not efficiently.
<!--quoteo(post=462161:date=Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM:name=Aptorian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aptorian @ Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=462161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God damn. Mighty drunk. Must ... what is the english movement movement movement for drunk... with out you seemimg drunk?

bla bla bla

Peopleare harrasing me... grrrrrh.

Also people with big noses aren't jews, they're just french

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#16 User is offline   Una 

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:15 AM

That's actually why anyone with any money these days in China is sending their kids to places like USA, Canada, and Australia for school. They place a lot value on the success of the next generation and they KNOW that Mainland Chinese schools are crap. They can memorize stuff but they fall apart when they have to apply it to something new. You send your kid abroad, he'll learn English, which is good for business, and get those critical thinking skills that they don't teach back home. That's why we're seeing them flooding the high schools and universities in Canada. I'm sure it's the same in other countries. I don't know about Europe. That was traditionally where political leaders would send their kids, because the education that the masses get just isn't going to cut it for a future leader. Nowadays, I don't know. Never been there to check it out.

Still, I do believe you HAVE to grind out the basics before you should get to do the fun stuff. You have to get through all that tedious phonics stuff before you can read story books. You have to memorize your times tables before you get to do the fun, powerful math. You need to practice your scales and do your sight-reading exercises if you want to be able to play that cool piano song you heard on the radio. You gotta do a lot torturous stance work and basics if you want to be any good at kung fu and do that neat sword form and not look like a fool. The more you practice, the more the basic stuff becomes automatic and the more you can free your mind to think of creative stuff. A lot of kids raised here seem to act like they are allergic to boredom. If you take that attitude, you'll give up before you get to the good stuff. I have a feeling I will turn into my own mother and be prodding my own kids through their basics. They won't thank me until years later when they get to the fun stuff, but that's ok. It was the same way with me. I feel satisfied that have not wasted my potential.

It's interesting. My parents sort of wanted me to be a pharmacist. Or at least my mother sort of threw out every so often, "don't you think your life would be easier if you went for pharmacy instead?" They thought a girl being a doctor would make me unmarriageable. I would spend too long in school, work too many hours, and never meet anyone. Plus would raise my value so much that it would narrow the pool of potential suitors. But in the end a profession is a profession and they supported me. Anyways in your example, architect is a profession too. I think the point is I have a lot of friends whose parents have literally spent their careers stocking shelves, washing dishes, cleaning houses, or working in factories. They had to! When you don't speak English, that's all you're good for. It's a tough life. Especially with physical labour type jobs, their bodies start breaking down, but they have to keep going. They just don't want that for their kids, and frankly, neither would I.
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#17 User is offline   Anomander Rake 

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:42 AM

Una, I like your comment regarding getting the basics right. I remember in high school, I would see some students struggling through certain subjects and you know that all they need is a few lessons on the basics that they probably were taught in primary school but have forgotten, and they would understand the current lessons a lot better. I think going over the basics every now and then would likely improve the learning ability of many students and hence their exam results.

I never understood why we spent so much time reading poems at school in our English lessons, rather than spending time on the more core elements and basics.
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#18 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:13 AM

Yah, and I think it's especially important to do that early because it's when kids (for the most part) still consider school fun.
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#19 User is offline   powerclaw 

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

View Postworrywort, on 09 March 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Yah, and I think it's especially important to do that early because it's when kids (for the most part) still consider school fun.


Yes! Early is key, but because that's when you retain more than because its fun. It's actually hilarious to see what kids do in the first few years of grade school in Canada. Unstructured play time is important but kids have so much potential at that age its unfortunate to see them mostly waste their time. My dad taught me basic math before I started school and by the time I was in grade 2 I could multiply. There's something to be said for teaching basics at the age where retention is at its highest and you don't really have the capacity for anything more complicated or open-ended anyhow.
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#20 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:10 PM

It's not one or the other! How dare you contradict me like that in public.
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