Malazan Empire: Prometheus - Ridley Scott - Malazan Empire

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Prometheus - Ridley Scott AKA ALIEN - Prequel-ish

#221 User is offline   Beezulbubba 

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 01:55 AM

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#222 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 12:13 PM

I don't understand how what will be included in some theoretical director's cut is relevant for the quality of this film. I didn't see a future directors cut. I saw the film as it was in the cinema. It's interesting to speculate what would be included in something like that for sure, but hardly something that affects the quality of what we all saw.

The thing with Prometheus to me is that you can divide it into to sections. It raises a lot of interesting questions for sure. Why would the Engineers act the way they did. Did the mural in that temple room represent their religion. Do they consider the something resembling the Alien their creator. Are they trying to recreate whichever race created them? Perhaps they worship the idea of genetic perfection, culuminating in something very much like the Alien?

You can draw quite a lot of parallels to christianity for sure, which is surprising considering Ridley Scott's quite vocal view on religion.

See all this together with the fictional TED talk and you get the foundation for an intelligent sci fi that actually challenges the viewer. The trailer and all the other pre-release material promised us something as rare as a sci fi that treats its viewers like at least marginally intelligent people. Apart from Moon and Sunshine, how many of those have we gotten in the last decade? Then look at how much twisting some members need to do in order to justify some actions in this film. Ridiculous analogies about surgical masks and imploding helmets. Really? Is that the signs of an intelligent movie to you?

The main problem I have with Prometheus, and which the other posters with a more negative view seems to share, is how most of the things that happen throughout the movie makes sense only as stepping stones for the plot. When a character makes a choice that forwards the plot but seems completely artificial for the character, it ruins immersion for a lot of people. It was necessary for the plot to have the biologist and the geologist get lost, but there was no way they'd get lost considering the tools they had at their disposal. You sit there thinking "How the fuck did they get lost?" and the only viable answer is "because the plot required them to do so". That's bad writing. It could have been anything. Their equipment malfunctioned because of the storm. The floor collapsed and they found themselves in an unmapped part of the structure. Instead they got lost because of plot.

Prometheus is packed to the brim with this sort of thing. It's not nitpicking. It's a reacting to bad writing and a badly written story is not a good story.

And when talking about bad writing. The dialogue didn't strike you as stiff and rather forced? I remember a collective groan when Shaw brought up the inability to have children. Did anyone find that scene the least believable? Considering the quality of the actress involved it must have been poorly written indeed. Not to mention Charlize Theron, who seemed to be hitting her head continously at the limitations of her role. Fassenbender played great as David, but even with his role the script didn't seem to know what it wanted him to be. His taunting of Shaw in regards to her pregnancy was particularly strange considering how his character had been presented so far. Not to mention how Shaw acted towards David at the end, after he'd killed her husband and tried to have her give birth to an alien parasite.

At the very end I want to point out that this is not a thread dedicated to some sort of Ridley Scott circlejerk. If someone wishes to debate the negative aspects of the film they are just as welcome to do so as those wishing to talk about the positive aspects. The important thing is that the general tone remains civil. If a person for whatever reason feels threatened by opposing views then perhaps this is not the place to hang out.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 15 June 2012 - 12:20 PM

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#223 User is offline   McLovin 

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:18 PM

Admittedly though it was fun to keep drawing QT offsides. Sorry QT.
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
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#224 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 02:34 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 15 June 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I don't understand how what will be included in some theoretical director's cut is relevant for the quality of this film. I didn't see a future directors cut. I saw the film as it was in the cinema. It's interesting to speculate what would be included in something like that for sure, but hardly something that affects the quality of what we all saw.

The thing with Prometheus to me is that you can divide it into to sections. It raises a lot of interesting questions for sure. Why would the Engineers act the way they did. Did the mural in that temple room represent their religion. Do they consider the something resembling the Alien their creator. Are they trying to recreate whichever race created them? Perhaps they worship the idea of genetic perfection, culuminating in something very much like the Alien?

You can draw quite a lot of parallels to christianity for sure, which is surprising considering Ridley Scott's quite vocal view on religion.

See all this together with the fictional TED talk and you get the foundation for an intelligent sci fi that actually challenges the viewer. The trailer and all the other pre-release material promised us something as rare as a sci fi that treats its viewers like at least marginally intelligent people. Apart from Moon and Sunshine, how many of those have we gotten in the last decade? Then look at how much twisting some members need to do in order to justify some actions in this film. Ridiculous analogies about surgical masks and imploding helmets. Really? Is that the signs of an intelligent movie to you?

The main problem I have with Prometheus, and which the other posters with a more negative view seems to share, is how most of the things that happen throughout the movie makes sense only as stepping stones for the plot. When a character makes a choice that forwards the plot but seems completely artificial for the character, it ruins immersion for a lot of people. It was necessary for the plot to have the biologist and the geologist get lost, but there was no way they'd get lost considering the tools they had at their disposal. You sit there thinking "How the fuck did they get lost?" and the only viable answer is "because the plot required them to do so". That's bad writing. It could have been anything. Their equipment malfunctioned because of the storm. The floor collapsed and they found themselves in an unmapped part of the structure. Instead they got lost because of plot.

Prometheus is packed to the brim with this sort of thing. It's not nitpicking. It's a reacting to bad writing and a badly written story is not a good story.

And when talking about bad writing. The dialogue didn't strike you as stiff and rather forced? I remember a collective groan when Shaw brought up the inability to have children. Did anyone find that scene the least believable? Considering the quality of the actress involved it must have been poorly written indeed. Not to mention Charlize Theron, who seemed to be hitting her head continously at the limitations of her role. Fassenbender played great as David, but even with his role the script didn't seem to know what it wanted him to be. His taunting of Shaw in regards to her pregnancy was particularly strange considering how his character had been presented so far. Not to mention how Shaw acted towards David at the end, after he'd killed her husband and tried to have her give birth to an alien parasite.

At the very end I want to point out that this is not a thread dedicated to some sort of Ridley Scott circlejerk. If someone wishes to debate the negative aspects of the film they are just as welcome to do so as those wishing to talk about the positive aspects. The important thing is that the general tone remains civil. If a person for whatever reason feels threatened by opposing views then perhaps this is not the place to hang out.



The above post is tantamount to saying that I didn't see the same movie as you and that I'm too stupid to have seen it for the bad movie it was.

No, and I'll say this once: I am NOT TWISTING fuck all. My explanations for the things people had issues with are EXACTLY how I saw the film. I didn't sit there while I watched it (or afterwards) and construct all the explanations for the things in the film. That is simply how I interpreted them as i watched. That does not make you smarter than me, and it certainly does not make me stupid. It simply means we didn't watch it and get the same things from it. So don't call me "wrong" or call my attempts to explain HOW I viewed it as ridiculous...those arguments I put forth are not because I had issues with understanding the film in the way I did...they were my attempt to point out to others perhaps WHY my brain saw it that way. Those are not, I repeat NOT me twisting anything, it's simply how I saw those things.

I think that TREE OF LIFE is an eye-raping, assinine, and boring ass film....but a lot of people here liked it. I didn't proceed to go on thread about it and say anything further than I didn't like it. I didn't set out to challenge the reasons people put forth FOR liking it...they liked it, I didn't End of story. That makes them no more stupid or less stupid than i...it simply means they saw something in Mallick's film that I didn't and that's great for them.

Was there silly stuff in PROMETHEUS that was less than immediately believable? Sure, I've already noted that. But I don't think it outweighs the film as a whole.

That's how I saw it. There's no need to attempt to dismiss or discredit my argument as I'm not about to change my mind...but I'd rather not be labelled as someone who is making excuses for a film that MUST be stupid because others saw it that way. I saw it my own way. I was simply attempting to ask negative reviewers to consider some "reasons" for the things they disliked.

If I (on the other hand) came across as calling anyone stupid (not that I thought I was) for DISliking it, then that's not what I had intended and I'm sorry. I had only truly intended to present options and reasons that i saw for the complaints they had.
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#225 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 03:04 PM

I enjoy reading your discussion in this thread, QT. It feels just like when I say that I enjoyed the transformers movies. It is quite amusing :harhar:
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#226 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 03:25 PM

LOL, Apt.

My secret is I like the TF movies too. :harhar:

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 June 2012 - 03:27 PM

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#227 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Question: Does everyone complaining about the scientists actions really think that all scientists behave perfectly, and make all the right decisions 24/7?


This one does!!! I know I'm perfect so anyone who disagrees with me is wrong AND stupid :harhar:
Burn rubber =/= warp speed
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#228 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 05:05 PM

I don't know Mezla. It is hard not to draw some parallels between doctor lady's octopus-removal and somebody else's DIY head plastic surgery.
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#229 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:14 PM

The stuff I surgically removed from my own scalp didn't come back as Sigourney Weaver's arch nemesis. I'm claiming a win.
Burn rubber =/= warp speed
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#230 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:42 PM

Maybe you should check your local papers archives. Maybe there is a hairy octupus harassing the British country side as we speak.
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#231 User is offline   Captain Beardface 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:51 AM

I'm gonna wade in here... there is no way that when Prometheus crashes into the Engineer's ship that the Engineers ship is going to come back towards Shaw and Charlize as it crashes the laws of physics apply everywhere in the universe not just here on Earth. My engineering brain will not let it go and because of that I will not be seeing the Denzel Washington movie that I saw the preview for.
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#232 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:42 AM

I managed to suspend my disbelief at a couple places and enjoyed the movie. But I saw no-one speculating about WHY they were going to destroy the earth. Fine-tuning their ultimate Genetic Weapon? Was earth seeded as food for the race they actually wanted? With all the other ships, were there tons of other planets (stargate style) with the weak/stupid offspring the engineers that are just tests of evolution or something, and that is why there were so many ships?

Why were the Engineers wearing Loghyr-style armor?

Honestly my gut instinct was that the Engineers had a home planet that was nigh impregnable to the aliens, and they were using alien babies to wipe out all the other food in the galaxy to try and starve the entire alien race? But that seems semi farfetched, if the coolest option.

Also, if our DNA is a PERFECT MATCH of the Engineers, why the fuck are they huge and buff and pale-as-snow, and humans are not? I mean, would that be something in relation to the world they were born on? Wouldn't that be related to genetics as well?

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 18 June 2012 - 04:43 AM

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#233 User is offline   McLovin 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:59 PM

View PostObdigore, on 18 June 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

I managed to suspend my disbelief at a couple places and enjoyed the movie. But I saw no-one speculating about WHY they were going to destroy the earth.


I know, because THIS is actually the best part of the movie.

My guess is that there were actually two Engineer factions - one group (shown in the intro) who created the black goo and thought it would be cool to seed a planet with the stuff, see what happens. Maybe they were free-loving hippie scientists, who knows.

But then the second group, probably associated with the military, found out about this and realized a sentient race, even though incredibly primitive by their standards, would eventually pose a threat to them. So they decided to preemptively wipe us out by weaponizing the first group's life-creation goo. Poetic justice, I guess, though it promptly blew up in their faces. By which I mean, raped their faces.
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
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#234 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:08 PM

Not to wade in more deeply into the flame wars, but enjoying a film that has stupid parts does not mean that a person is stupid.
I personally loved Battleship this year for example. Not that I'm saying that I'm a genius or anything.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 June 2012 - 01:09 PM

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#235 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

View Postblackzoid, on 18 June 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Not to wade in more deeply into the flame wars, but enjoying a film that has stupid parts does not mean that a person is stupid.
I personally loved Battleship this year for example. Not that I'm saying that I'm a genius or anything.


Actually, this is a damn good parallel. I'm struggling not to join in the debate in this thread, because I kinda promised myself I wouldn't overthink Prometheus too much, and it's already a resolve that has been seriously challenged, but this I think needs a 'second'.

Battleship is the same vein as Transformers and Prometheus, I feel - even if it was, overall, a lot worse movie than Prometheus - it had its ups and downs plot-wise, and character-wise, and pacing-wise, but it still was an enjoyable watch. The MAIN gripes I had with it were more to do with foolish plot-device/"big action" decisions that were made about it. Like the AEGIS defence system being apparently unable to hit all the incoming, slow-moving, LOBBED alien projectiles, when it puts up such a spray of lead that there is no way those things got through (given it's designed to bring down incoming missiles...), and the fact that aliens with faster-than-light travel (apparently) are incapable of developing self-propelled projectiles (and again fall victim to, "if you can travel FTL, why do you need to INVADE the planet and SHOOT the humans...just nuke site from orbit with a %-of-FTL kinetic bomb...") or even direct-fire weapons, let alone energy weapons.
And the utterly stupid decision to make the signals suddenly become actual beams of light once they went through the signal-boosting satellite (which had for some reason many pretty lights on it too) and/or when they were being beamed up from earth. We honestly don't need those special effects to get what is happening, ffs...

But it was the same with Prometheus. All the little bits (most stand-out in hindsight was DEFINITELY the alien ship crashing back CLOSER to where the Prometheus was docked despite accelerating AWAY from said position and then being hit by a force originating FROM that position...) that annoyed me were issues with, essentially, realism. And a bit of plot continuity, granted. But the movie was actually great. It's just that some of those bits were distractingly annoying because they were so glaringly "big budget plot device/action-sequence-cliche". As Obdi mentions above, it comes down to suspension of disbelief and I struggled to maintain that through the whole film because some things broke it so badly.
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#236 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:40 PM

I'll just leave this here: http://io9.com/59193...g-of-prometheus
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#237 User is offline   Malaclypse 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:58 PM

I enjoyed it, but I'm no Ridley Scott or Alien(s) fanboy. It was just a spectacle to me and it was alright on that level, but still jarring in terms of unbelievable stupidity in parts. The supposed academic who gets the worm eye thing - that dude was not for a moment believable as an academic and was just incredibly poor writing/casting imo. The geologist with the mapping drones getting lost was also amateurish and stupid - the biologist trying to make nice with the alien snake-thing taking no precautions whatsoever? Really?!

And there were a fair few more WTF?! moments. I feel sorry for the people that are serious fans and expected a lot from this movie because it was merely a spectacle - the writing was appalling, the mysteries insipid, and I could go on... but it was enjoyable enough to watch with no expectations whatsoever :rolleyes: Not worth a second viewing however.

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:37 PM

Damn it, instead of editing I just duplicated my post, so I might as well add something here.

Maybe out DNA matches the Engineers so closely because they were manipulating it throughout the stages of evolution. This can make sense since you can see they are obsessed with genetic manipulation and the whole creation process, as evident with the alien/ xenomorph shrine on their ship. I like someones idea ( i think it was Apt) that said how this might be somehow connected to their religion. Maybe the whole idea was to infect their own kind as a test and send the ship crashing to earth and to see what happens. Movie definitely makes you think.

This post has been edited by A Demon Llama!: 18 June 2012 - 11:10 PM

No Touchy.
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#239 User is offline   A Demon Llama! 

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:02 PM

I hope Ridley Scott doesn't do the Blade Runners sequel now, just cant take the chance.

Edit: I actually liked the whole premise of the movie and all of the many smart questions that it raised. Prometheus was promised as a smart movie, and I think the general movie, the whole idea behind it, the whole creation aspect WAS pretty well done, although it could have been fine tuned.. What I have problems with is all the other cliche/ non realistic stuff that everyone already ranted about, including myself. Those parts dumb down this movie that is supposed to make you think and take these questions seriously. There were people laughing during scenes that were supposed to be serious, and all I could do is shake my head in disappointment.

I'm seriously considering downloading this movie when it comes out and just cutting out the parts that I didn't think were necessary and then I can hit my head really hard and watch the movie.

Also, I thought that the Engineers purpose of killing off humans was clear. There made us in order to experiment on us to create the perfect organism. Or they made us then decided since were already there doing nothing, might as well infect us all with some weird shit in order to perfect their formula. At the end of the movie it does seem like the Engineer looks at humans as some sort of worm the way he just looked at the people with disgust and then killed em.

One question that I have is that since there are other ships on that planet, are there more Engineers hibernating in them? Or did the humans just get lucky in finding that guy in the first ship they looked at? We find a whole pile of dead Engineers gathered in an area, so maybe they were using that one ship to get away from the xenomorphs, with all of the others being already overrun.

This post has been edited by A Demon Llama!: 18 June 2012 - 11:10 PM

No Touchy.
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#240 User is offline   Beezulbubba 

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:03 AM



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