[JLV]

 Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast, on 21 December 2011 - 12:06 AM, said:

 JLV, on 20 December 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

They're really not crap books, though.

Even the slower, not-particularly-good-plot-wise books are much better than a lot of other fantasy.

I kinda stopped reading once I got to a post I wanted to reply to, so sorry if I cover something that someone's just said.

It's my opinion that you're more likely to not enjoy certain books in the series if you've had to wait for them. I'm not going to justify that if quotes and references and shit, but I've read a lot of people's opinions over time and it seems to be a fair enough assertion to make.

The first one I had to wait for was...KOD...maybe, so I was able to read all of the 'rubbish' books consecutively and without pause. While I do agree that they are most definitely slower and more tedious in places (AHEM, PERRIN) than the rest, I loved them just as much and found that other parts of them made up for those shitier (as in 'shitey', not 'shitter', or i'd have spelt it properly) bits for the books to be equally as interesting as the rest of the series.

That's the exact situation for me, actually. If I remember correctly, I had to wait for was KoD, so maybe that's exactly what causes my (lack of) hatred.

I will admit that I hated the women half the time, but I thought that was kind-of the point.

[MWKarsa]

I'm a glutton for punishment(I've read plenty of crappy Star Wars books so I speak from experience) so I got into this series loving it at first then got frustrated with the crack-like disjointed plotlines that involved multiple characters that were confusing to follow since they got sporaic mention when they were presented to be important to the core story. If I had to read this series from the beginning I probably would have given up on it but I want to see how it ends so I will. I can't remember the exact book that featured the sidetrack of the traveling circus and Elayne worrying about her short-shorts while ignoring the cliff-hanger ending involving Mat in the previous book was one the worst by far.

[Sapper JHall]

I have re-read WOT probably about three times. I would say that the first Six books have a lot more happening in them in terms of action and such. Lord of Chaos is my personal favorite. I also find that books 7 - 11 are more political in nature. On my first reading's of these books I would say that I didn't really like these as much. However, the last time I went through them I really enjoyed them and picked up a lot more on the political intrigue. I do not mind the slow pace either. I am a huge fan of character building and I think Robert Jordan is such a master of that. I can not wait for A Memory of Light. I first picked up the Eye Of the World probably around 14 years ago. It is crazy to think that it is almost over.

[Sapper JHall]

The only one I truly disliked was Crossroads of Twilight. It makes you wonder how much Jordan's sickness affected his writing in these later books.

[Terez]

 Sapper JHall, on 05 January 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The only one I truly disliked was Crossroads of Twilight. It makes you wonder how much Jordan's sickness affected his writing in these later books.

Quote

Interview: Oct 20th, 1994
LOC Signing Report - Delemin (Paraphrased)

Delemin
Robert Jordan was stockier, shorter, and better cushioned than I expected. He wore a wide brimmed hat and walked with a cane with a ram's horn like handle. Generally he was open and friendly. When he came in late he explained that it was because Princess Di was in New York to meet Bill Clinton to discuss Vince Foster's suicide. However he made repeated references to being worn out and overworked by Lord of Chaos.

Robert Jordan
"If I work that hard on this one I'll die," he commented several times. Apparently he worked 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week. In August (he usually finishes in May) the folks at Tor sequestered him in a hotel in New York City, where he finished the book in two weeks. He said he would try to get the book out on time but he figured we would rather have him finish a book late than finish his life early.

Quote

Interview: Oct 23rd, 1994
LOC Signing Report - Brian Bax (Paraphrased)

Harriet McDougal Rigney
Next we talked about Lord of Chaos and its creation. It took a long time to compile, in fact TOO much time. It was "supposed" to be done by April 1994 at the latest. However, it wasn't even close to being done. Somewhere past the deadline, they lost a chapter [I believe it was Dumai's Wells, which might explain why it's so choppy]. They flew RJ up to New York and he wrote the final parts in a hotel for about two weeks. He finished on August 28, 1994. Tor had to do MAJOR overtime to check and edit it for its Oct. 12 release date. Mrs. Jordan also added that Lord of Chaos was their most difficult one composed ever. It was a real marker as to how fast they could produce a novel at this point in the series. After his book signing tour he's going straight to his word processor and type through Thanksgiving and probably Xmas, 'cause he hasn't even started yet. RJ made an arrangement with a manager (I think) from Tor for a March deadline. If book seven wasn't completed by that time, then the fall release would be cancelled, meaning that book seven will not be released to as late as Fall 1996 possibly. This manager seems to have forgotten this arrangement and wanted to have it released by fall 1995, under pressure from Tor publishing and the parent St. Martin's it appears.

Quote

Interview: Mar, 2000
Locus Magazine Interview

Robert Jordan
The first book took four years. The next five books took, on average, 14 months. I finished Lord of Chaos in August 1994, handed the manuscript in, and in October, two months later, I was on tour for that book. I came back and said, 'There isn't time. I cannot write a book for you in time for you to publish it next fall.' I convinced them I couldn't do it, and it's lucky I did, because it turned out A Crown of Swords took almost two years, and so did The Path of Daggers.

[amphibian]

What's the point you're trying to make, Terez? Sapper Jhall is talking about the effect of the sickness upon the writing - not necessarily the time the creative process took.

Seems like a non-answer answer to the wrong question here.

[Terez]

 amphibian, on 21 February 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

What's the point you're trying to make, Terez? Sapper Jhall is talking about the effect of the sickness upon the writing - not necessarily the time the creative process took.

Seems like a non-answer answer to the wrong question here.

You have to read between the lines.

[amphibian]

 Terez, on 21 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

You have to read between the lines.

Mind explaining it then for someone who doesn't steep themselves to the eyeballs in Jordan's career? What effect did the illness have upon his writing and when did it start or get serious?

He was diagnosed with the heart disease in 2006 and died in 2007. These interviews from 1994 and 2000 are well before that diagnosis. That's why I'm asking you to spell it out.

[Terez]

 amphibian, on 22 February 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

 Terez, on 21 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

You have to read between the lines.

Mind explaining it then for someone who doesn't steep themselves to the eyeballs in Jordan's career? What effect did the illness have upon his writing and when did it start or get serious?

We can only guess.

Quote

He was diagnosed with the heart disease in 2006 and died in 2007. These interviews from 1994 and 2000 are well before that diagnosis. That's why I'm asking you to spell it out.

I'm not so sure that's true. The quotes above are suggestive. It's quite possible they didn't discover the amyloidosis until 2006 (I think on the record it's actually 2005), but obviously they were aware of health problems in 1994—health problems that made him think that his intense pace in previous years was likely to kill him. Not only were there more years between books beginning at that point, but the books were also shorter and covered less ground. One could argue that he should have cut the 'fluff' at that point, but obviously he felt everything he wrote was important.

This post has been edited by Terez: 22 February 2012 - 08:19 AM

[a Reindeer]

As with a few other people, the first book which I had to wait for was Knife of Dreams, and it was well worth my time. It was really surprising to me to find out (I didn't start to really surf the web until after KoD) that most people seem to dislike books 7-10. Personally, A Crown of Swords and Crossroads of Twilight are actually my favourite, probably because of the extensive segments concerning Mat. Honestly, I'm still not sure why people dislike CoT. It has always seemed to me to contain crucial character development for Mat and for Egwene, and I love the Mat/Tuon bits. It does not have as much action as other books, but do people read solely for action? Important and interesting things can transpire without grand battles and epic duels. One of the most significant moments for me was Mat ordering the death of Renna. So, I might be pretty late to the party to discuss WoT here, but I found the most tedious books to be 1, 4, and 8 (the last being due to the lack of Mat).

Also, has anyone else noticed that while Branderson has done a wonderful job of picking up where RJ left off, he does not write a very convincing Mat?

[JLV]

I think in Sanderson's first, Mat was atrocious, but in the 2nd was quite good. But that's just my opinion.

[QuickTidal]

I think if Mat is the only character that stands out as coming across a bit differently, then he's done quite well by the cast of characters...

And yeah, I think Sanderson's Mat in ToM is a big improvement.

[Terez]

I think there wasn't much difference between Mat in TGS and TOM. Mat just started atrociously bad in TGS. Fans were already quite anxious as to how Brandon would do Mat, and his first scene in TGS was the least Mat-like of all of them. It wasn't all that different from the conversation with Setalle Anan in TOM, 'Boots' though.

This post has been edited by Terez: 05 April 2012 - 06:20 PM

[a Reindeer]

Well, I have been very impressed with how Branderson has handled all of his characters. Except, tragically, for Mat. In *The Gathering Storm* Mat was terrible, and while he was better in *Towers of Midnight*, he certainly was not the same Mat that I have enjoyed reading in books 1-11. He still seemed to be too blatantly goofy/ridiculous, like all of the more subtle depth to his character was gone.

[Terez]

The running theory is that Brandon didn't necessarily write Mat any worse than anyone else, but rather that Mat fanboys (and fangirls) dominate the WoT fandom. We're more particular about him than any other character. That being said, there are a few characters Brandon does better than Mat I think. And partly, Mat is just more difficult to do than, say, Perrin. To write him, you have to be him, and few people are that awesome.

[a Reindeer]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, we Mat fans simply notice flaws in Branderson's portrayal of him more than other people notice flaws in their favourites? Or are we just the only ones who see the flaws in Mat's portrayal?

POTENTIAL SPOILERS I think Branderson certainly had an easier time with Rand and Perrin than he did with Mat, if only because the characters both had major pivot moments in their development, so he gets a relatively "fresh" start on them. For example, Rand in ToM is drastically different from his appearances in any of the other books, because he is finally Lews/Rand instead of insane Rand (leading to that marvelous moment when he called Cadsuane young near Far Madding) /END SPOILERS

[Terez]

 a Reindeer, on 06 April 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

So if I'm understanding you correctly, we Mat fans simply notice flaws in Branderson's portrayal of him more than other people notice flaws in their favourites? Or are we just the only ones who see the flaws in Mat's portrayal?

It was more along the lines of, there are more Mat fanboys than fanboys of other characters by a pretty substantial margin.

Quote

Rand in ToM is drastically different from his appearances in any of the other books, because he is finally Lews/Rand instead of insane Rand

And a bit of Moridin, don't forget. We have no idea how much.

Quote

(leading to that marvelous moment when he called Cadsuane young near Far Madding) /END SPOILERS

Many fans thought that scene was pure fanservice on Brandon's part. The Cadsuane fans thought he did a terrible job with her, but of course, all the people who hate Cadsuane thought she was perfect.

[a Reindeer]

Oh, I had forgotten Moridin! This thread is making me more excited for A Memory of Light than I was a couple of days ago.

I can understand that Branderson would throw in fanservice, but not so much why that moment?.....what about that scene gives it that impression?

[Terez]

Just the fact that many fans (especially the vocal male type) hate Cadsuane, so it was a bit of fanservice to have Rand one-up her like that.

[acesn8s]

 a Reindeer, on 05 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Well, I have been very impressed with how Branderson has handled all of his characters. Except, tragically, for Mat. In *The Gathering Storm* Mat was terrible, and while he was better in *Towers of Midnight*, he certainly was not the same Mat that I have enjoyed reading in books 1-11. He still seemed to be too blatantly goofy/ridiculous, like all of the more subtle depth to his character was gone.

Marriage will do that to you.

I also thought Mat was "off" in TGS. I chalked it up to Mat personifying the mischievous part of RJ. Of course BS is going to characterize it differently.

Jan 2013 can't get here soon enough.