[Kanese S's]

I'm not quite sure where in the books we get all the info about the T'lan Imass. So, if you're still reading the early books, tread with caution.

Spoiler

So, we've seen the mortal Imass just before the ritual, and quite a great deal of time later. When we see them after the ritual, they appear as dessicated mummy/zombie-like figures. My question is, how soon after the ritual did they get this appearance? Did they instantly become undead (total organ failure, heart no longer beating, no longer breathing, etc. For all outward appearances dead except for the walking around, talking, and killing jaghut part), or did they look the same after the ritual as before, but upon the death of their bodies their spirits didn't depart and instead they kept using their bodies, even though now corpses?

I guess the short version is, did the whole undead thing happen instantly, or was it a gradual process, after the ritual?

[First Sword Onos T'oolan]

Kanese S, on 21 October 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not quite sure where in the books we get all the info about the T'lan Imass. So, if you're still reading the early books, tread with caution.

Spoiler

So, we've seen the mortal Imass just before the ritual, and quite a great deal of time later. When we see them after the ritual, they appear as dessicated mummy/zombie-like figures. My question is, how soon after the ritual did they get this appearance? Did they instantly become undead (total organ failure, heart no longer beating, no longer breathing, etc. For all outward appearances dead except for the walking around, talking, and killing jaghut part), or did they look the same after the ritual as before, but upon the death of their bodies their spirits didn't depart and instead they kept using their bodies, even though now corpses?

I guess the short version is, did the whole undead thing happen instantly, or was it a gradual process, after the ritual?

I am assuming though still only on Bonehunters that the T'lan Imass were in fact flesh until their bodies died in either one of oyur options because if the were undead instantly due to organ failure they still would have died and then became undead... whether it was instantaneous or not i don't know

[Kanubis]

Since Tellan is a warren of fire I've always kind of assumed that the ritual made them dried-out husks immediately.

[Sinisdar Toste]

since it is my opinion that we're seeing a modern day version of the t'lan with the crimson guard avowed, i would say that the dessication and drying-out occured over the thousands of years they have been t'lan. after the ritual, their bodies wouldn't have looked very different, but as time goes on, and their bodies are not being allowed to stop, they become mummified and eventually begin to rot away. in RotCG

Spoiler

K'azz talks about how he feels he is becoming preserved, and he doesn't really need to eat or sleep so much anymore

[Defiance]

I believe it happened over time. This is due to the fact that some T'lan Imass seem more ravaged than others. Between living for 300,000 years and fighting in numerous wars, they just don't look so hot anymore.

[JLV]

Minhasing Bheget, on 21 October 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

since it is my opinion that we're seeing a modern day version of the t'lan with the crimson guard avowed, i would say that the dessication and drying-out occured over the thousands of years they have been t'lan. after the ritual, their bodies wouldn't have looked very different, but as time goes on, and their bodies are not being allowed to stop, they become mummified and eventually begin to rot away. in RotCG

Spoiler

K'azz talks about how he feels he is becoming preserved, and he doesn't really need to eat or sleep so much anymore

The main difference, if I recall, is the healing powers of the avowed. They don't continue living despite wounds, their wounds heal supernaturally and they remain living.

The T'lan certainly don't seem to heal from wounds. Some even ignore spears, swords, and the like thrust through their body. Their bodies are dead, but they remain held together by the magic of the Ritual and (from what I understand) willpower. The avowed are living, and remain living through magical means that are not clear.

More on topic, I suppose that it would make sense if it happened over time. Natural atrophy caused their organs to fail, and they simply continued, because they don't need them.

[tiam]

Minhasing Bheget, on 21 October 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

since it is my opinion that we're seeing a modern day version of the t'lan with the crimson guard avowed, i would say that the dessication and drying-out occured over the thousands of years they have been t'lan. after the ritual, their bodies wouldn't have looked very different, but as time goes on, and their bodies are not being allowed to stop, they become mummified and eventually begin to rot away. in RotCG

Spoiler

K'azz talks about how he feels he is becoming preserved, and he doesn't really need to eat or sleep so much anymore

Yes the Avowed have most likely tapped into a ritual of Tellan and so your analogy makes sense.

Id have to say it happened over time. I know someone upthread mentioned as Tellan is a warren of fire, or atleast a derivitive of KT, it burned them out imeediately. However I do not believe this is the case as they would have a far darker,scorched appearance. In most cases their bodies are simply mummified with there senses no longer relying on body parts (eyesight no longer relying on eyes etc). There description is usually nut brown skin stretched over bone, suggesting a darkening of the skin over time rather than a brutal husk making process.

Edit- JLV- its possible that the ritual involved with the Avowed was different. Howwever it could be a possible evolution (or degradation?) of the Ritual that led the Imass to their current appearance. Essentially at first they remained flesh and blood Imass yet held together by mortal flesh. Yet over time as nature took it course the Vow continued to sustain them leaving behind husks of their bodies as they lived on through the Ritual. Its plausible that this may happen to the Avowed one day.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 October 2011 - 04:30 PM

[Abyss]

I don't think the T'lan Imass all turned into dessicated zombies ther instant the Ritual was done, but it probably didn't take long before they were rather ripe, followed by drying out and withering into the form we know and love. I suspect that part of the ritual was their immediate death/undeath.

We've seen T'lan who are damaged, even heavily, and continue to stroll around stabbing things. The only limit is when they are so damaged that their bodies become useless, tho Onrack found a way around that in HoC (and as an aside, when he resurrected in RG, he didn't have a womanly shoulder and arm... but that was a Starvald/Refugium/dream thing, not Tellan ).

[HoosierDaddy]

When did they develop the ability to turn to dust and travel that way? Perhaps the answer to this question plays a role in answering the first?

[tiam]

HoosierDaddy, on 21 October 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

When did they develop the ability to turn to dust and travel that way? Perhaps the answer to this question plays a role in answering the first?

Interesting point. The Warren of T'ellan ( the undead one wherever the inflection lies) is the warren of dust. Im sure it says somewhere that it was born of the Ritual but it may have manifested itself when the Imass themselves would have become dust. On the other hand Im certain I remember (Toc to Tool on the Lamatath plain maybe?) that the Imass do not enter their warren when they turn to dust they merley 'become what they would have if the ritual had not taken place' if that quote rings a bell for anyone.

If thats the case then I suppose there have been certain evolutions of the Rituals power over the Millenia.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

tiam, on 21 October 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 21 October 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

When did they develop the ability to turn to dust and travel that way? Perhaps the answer to this question plays a role in answering the first?

Interesting point. The Warren of T'ellan ( the undead one wherever the inflection lies) is the warren of dust. Im sure it says somewhere that it was born of the Ritual but it may have manifested itself when the Imass themselves would have become dust. On the other hand Im certain I remember (Toc to Tool on the Lamatath plain maybe?) that the Imass do not enter their warren when they turn to dust they merley 'become what they would have if the ritual had not taken place' if that quote rings a bell for anyone.

If thats the case then I suppose there have been certain evolutions of the Rituals power over the Millenia.

Yes I remember the quote you're thinking of. MoI p. 289

Quote

When you fall into dust the way you do,' Toc asked, 'are you entering your Tellann warren?'
'No. I simply return to what I was meant to be, had not the Ritual taken place.'

That's interesting, because it was implied that turning to dust was a big advantage during the ice age created by the Jaghut. But assuming they wouldn't have turned to dust right away, it could have taken decades before they would have become dust in their normal lives. More if we presume that the preserving effects of the Ritual would have helped.

[worry]

We also don't know how long a mortal Imass lives. They could have died naturally at 30 or 40 years of age. I think given that there were Bonecasters among them, stuff like turning into dust didn't just accidentally get discovered one day like penicillin, but was an intended effect of the ritual. In other words, I don't think they dried out immediately upon accepting the ritual, but I do think they were instantly "undead" with all the pros and cons. It didn't take too long for them to appear corpselike.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 21 October 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

We also don't know how long a mortal Imass lives. They could have died naturally at 30 or 40 years of age. I think given that there were Bonecasters among them, stuff like turning into dust didn't just accidentally get discovered one day like penicillin, but was an intended effect of the ritual. In other words, I don't think they dried out immediately upon accepting the ritual, but I do think they were instantly "undead" with all the pros and cons. It didn't take too long for them to appear corpselike.

I take your point and it does make sense but not in the context of the above quote. Turning to dust is what they would have become had the Ritual not taken place. Now we all sort of agree they didnt simply become the husks that they were. However if thats the case than how did they 'return what was meant to be, had the ritual not taken place'. The key word there is return. If there still flesh and blood for the first hundred years or so after the Ritual they can hardly tun to dust. Admitedly were porbably overthinking it.

[worry]

It's a fair point, and it did occur to me, but I reconcile it with the fact that even though they are still "flesh and blood" after the ritual, they are still dead/undead (IMO) at that very instant, so returning to dust isn't necessarily out of the question there, even though we know it takes a decent while for bodies to actually rot. On the other hand, I can take your point and agree with it on some level, but still I wouldn't consider the dust thing a lucky or unknown byproduct, due to the Bonecasters' knowledge. And I think it would only take weeks to get there rather than years. The millennia of wear and tear is another issue. On the third hand, Tool could have been using some poetic language to describe the process, which doesn't mean it's a lie or inaccurate, but something of a simplification. Definitely think it's an interesting question though, even if it's just minutiae.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

worrywort, on 21 October 2011 - 11:07 PM, said:

It's a fair point, and it did occur to me, but I reconcile it with the fact that even though they are still "flesh and blood" after the ritual, they are still dead/undead (IMO) at that very instant, so returning to dust isn't necessarily out of the question there, even though we know it takes a decent while for bodies to actually rot. On the other hand, I can take your point and agree with it on some level, but still I wouldn't consider the dust thing a lucky or unknown byproduct, due to the Bonecasters' knowledge. And I think it would only take weeks to get there rather than years. The millennia of wear and tear is another issue. On the third hand, Tool could have been using some poetic language to describe the process, which doesn't mean it's a lie or inaccurate, but something of a simplification. Definitely think it's an interesting question though, even if it's just minutiae.

Just commenting on the bolded part. I think its fair to say that magic on that scale could certainly have unforeseen consequences and side effects. The Avowed of the Crimson Guard show us that for sure.

TCG

Spoiler

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but when Draconus gets out of his sword and finds out about the ritual of T'lan and the T'lan Imass he seems to have an "AHA!" moment, suggesting that he saw some reason for why somebody (Olar Ethil) would want the Imass to undergo the ritual, potentially for reasons other than just the extermination of the Jaghut.

I only bring it up, because it suggest that the ritual had aspects and effects that perhaps even the bonecasters that enacted might not fully understand.

[worry]

I definitely hear you, and I'm not discounting anything. I'll revise to say that even if they didn't do it on purpose, post-ritual Bonecasters would pick up on the power fairly quickly IMO, so I don't imagine it to be a power that lay dormant for long years or anything. I suppose that's essentially a guess, as I doubt it's even pinned down by the authors necessarily.

[tiam]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 October 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

worrywort, on 21 October 2011 - 11:07 PM, said:

It's a fair point, and it did occur to me, but I reconcile it with the fact that even though they are still "flesh and blood" after the ritual, they are still dead/undead (IMO) at that very instant, so returning to dust isn't necessarily out of the question there, even though we know it takes a decent while for bodies to actually rot. On the other hand, I can take your point and agree with it on some level, but still I wouldn't consider the dust thing a lucky or unknown byproduct, due to the Bonecasters' knowledge. And I think it would only take weeks to get there rather than years. The millennia of wear and tear is another issue. On the third hand, Tool could have been using some poetic language to describe the process, which doesn't mean it's a lie or inaccurate, but something of a simplification. Definitely think it's an interesting question though, even if it's just minutiae.

Just commenting on the bolded part. I think its fair to say that magic on that scale could certainly have unforeseen consequences and side effects. The Avowed of the Crimson Guard show us that for sure.

TCG

Spoiler

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but when Draconus gets out of his sword and finds out about the ritual of T'lan and the T'lan Imass he seems to have an "AHA!" moment, suggesting that he saw some reason for why somebody (Olar Ethil) would want the Imass to undergo the ritual, potentially for reasons other than just the extermination of the Jaghut.

I only bring it up, because it suggest that the ritual had aspects and effects that perhaps even the bonecasters that enacted might not fully understand.

Yes as the series progresses it seems the Ritual was more and more the concept of OE. It seems likely she had an ulterior motive, possibly in an effort to maintain her position. The rest of the EG were not in a position of power so it seems she may have a more significant though still limited influence. Yes as you point out the Avowed/Imass swore a vow of eternal war, what came of it remains to be seen. It bound their souls to there bodies and that seems the most difficult and powerful aspect of the Ritual, likely the most difficult part of both the Imass and Avowed Ritual.

However, I was trying to stress above, it seems likely as the war wound on the Ritual itself evolved. For example at he conception of the Ritual it seems unlikely someone said 'what happens if we rot because this will take nearly half a million years''nah dont worry your eyes will change and youll detect heat and movement instead' . It seems likely the intention of the Ritual fuelled it evolution. The adaptions made may represent changes by the Bonecasters themselves or simply a reinforcement of the original intent. The Ritual promised eternal war on th Jaghut and thus growsand shapes the recipients of that Ritual.

[Kanese S's]

Interesting points about the turning to dust ability they have.

Perhaps the Bonecasters knew it would happen, but it still didn't happen until a couple centuries later. After all, the whole point of the ritual was to make it possible to carry out their war no matter how long it took. Since their ritual would keep them around for thousands and thousands of years, I doubt the Bonecasters would be all that concerned that they wouldn't be able to travel as dust for a couple hundred years.

[tiam]

Not exactly bulletproof knowledge here but something that may be relevant. RG MMPB p.342 'In Bast Fulmar, there is no water of magic,no stream of power of which to steal. All used up,all taken to quench the fire that is life'

As I said not exactly bulletprooof but from this it does seem that the Ritual was designed to stopper death than to gift the Imass with some nice travelling capabilities.

[worry]

My question is, where are all the T'lan Imass children? There's potentially another dark secret they have going, right?