[richard m]

Wow! Some really cool speculation here - warms my heart to see the text dragging people this deep.

Special thanks to Abyss for vast chapter and verse enthusiasm; also to Pig Iron for letting it "click" and simply enjoying - would that a lot more fantasy readers were equipped to do exactly that! Oh, and amphibian - in partial answer to some of your speculation - you might want to wonder about Dark Lady Firfirdar...........

Cheers guys

[Abyss]

richard m, on 09 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Wow! Some really cool speculation here - warms my heart to see the text dragging people this deep.

Special thanks to Abyss for vast chapter and verse enthusiasm; also to Pig Iron for letting it "click" and simply enjoying - would that a lot more fantasy readers were equipped to do exactly that! Oh, and amphibian - in partial answer to some of your speculation - you might want to wonder about Dark Lady Firfirdar...........

Cheers guys

Richard: Hey thank YOU, the book was fantastic and i really look forward to the next one.
Which I will very cheerfully pre-order in hardcover.


- Abyss, ...must now go re-read all the Firfirdar parts...

[amphibian]

richard m, on 09 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Wow! Some really cool speculation here - warms my heart to see the text dragging people this deep.

Special thanks to Abyss for vast chapter and verse enthusiasm; also to Pig Iron for letting it "click" and simply enjoying - would that a lot more fantasy readers were equipped to do exactly that! Oh, and amphibian - in partial answer to some of your speculation - you might want to wonder about Dark Lady Firfirdar...........

Cheers guys

This cheers me up to no end. Thanks for trusting in us to get the subtle stuff - although I'm sure we didn't get it all.

Good luck in writing and life. And high five Erikson and Butcher if you're ever in the same place. Take pictures of that and post here. Our heads will 'splode.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 09 November 2011 - 09:30 PM

[Pig Iron]

In the middle of Woken Furies when I see this. Thank you for some great novels and times reading them mr Morgan. Want to join Amph in wishing you the best in writing and in life. I often feel totally selfishly with some authors that I hope they get good health, a long life and lots of creativity ...

[Coco with marshmallows]

amphibian, on 09 November 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

Good luck in writing and life. And high five Erikson and Butcher if you're ever in the same place. Take pictures of that and post here. Our heads will 'splode.

Mr Morgan graced the last two signing appearances by SE in Glasgow Amphibian

Also Firfirdar - Virginia Vidaura (spelling?) possibly? - his trainer in the Envoys?

[Abyss]

Cocoreturns, on 09 November 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

... Firfirdar - Virginia Vidaura (spelling?) possibly? - his trainer in the Envoys?

Ooo! Good call!

Now i have to go reread her bits in the Kovacs books... oh screw it, must needs schedule complete reread of both series to date....

[Coco with marshmallows]

Abyss, on 09 November 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

Cocoreturns, on 09 November 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

... Firfirdar - Virginia Vidaura (spelling?) possibly? - his trainer in the Envoys?

Ooo! Good call!

Now i have to go reread her bits in the Kovacs books... oh screw it, must needs schedule complete reread of both series to date....

Honestly it only came to mind as I just finished a re-read of Kovacs yesterday, which was inspired by this thread.

Now onto The Steel Remains again....

Also, what are the odds that Market Forces is set in the same universe?
Just something mentioned in the second Kovacs novel about the exec passing his conflict resolution classes, which of course ties back to what Market Forces is about.

I've not read Black Man, but if anyone has seen any possible linkage there.....then it would appear that Richard, rather like Brandon Sanderson, is setting his entire output in the same universe.

EDIT - also, almost certainly stretching things a bit here perhaps - but Dark Court = De Coms from Woken Furies? the point is made in Furies that they are the ones who would be capable of interaction with the Martian Technology.....

This post has been edited by Cocoreturns: 09 November 2011 - 10:56 PM

[Abyss]

BLACK MAN totally has elements that suggest it's set in the same universe.... the VR, the genetic manipulation tech, Marsalis as a precursor to Envoys...

MARKET FORCES not so much, but not unthinkable.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 03 November 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

Quote

Oh, and I took the something 'dark is coming' bit as a reference to Ringil. He has a tendency to become what everyone warns against... first the menace is a lightning crackling dwenda, end of the book, Ringil crackles with energy and can (erratically) plane-shift. Now we had the Changeling, and lo and behold, Ringil commands an army of what-might-have-been-dead-people.

Totally possible, but then why would Dakovash and company be investing in keeping him alive?

Because the prophecy isn't theirs, but that of their enemy? Ringil makes a very powerful tool... if you can manipulate him enough to do what you want him to do - which he might not do out of sheer obstinacy. Also, because Kovacs likes Ringil. Manlove aside, they are awfully similar in their disrespect for authority, can-do eat-shit mentality and elite military background.

richard m, on 09 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Wow! Some really cool speculation here - warms my heart to see the text dragging people this deep.

Special thanks to Abyss for vast chapter and verse enthusiasm; also to Pig Iron for letting it "click" and simply enjoying - would that a lot more fantasy readers were equipped to do exactly that! Oh, and amphibian - in partial answer to some of your speculation - you might want to wonder about Dark Lady Firfirdar...........

Cheers guys

Welcome back to our little corner of the interwebs, Richard. Great read, and it's awesome to see you drop a hint or two

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 09 November 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:

BLACK MAN totally has elements that suggest it's set in the same universe.... the VR, the genetic manipulation tech, Marsalis as a precursor to Envoys...

MARKET FORCES not so much, but not unthinkable.

Market Forces seems stand-alone from where I stand
There seems no development between its tech (which is basically urban wasteland stuff) with 13/ Black Man in technology - Marsalis' era is way more advanced but still largely petrol based (which is one of the reasons why driving became what it became in Market Forces) and contains a great many hints to London City being an enjoyable place to be, which it definately wasn't in Market Forces.

Of course, Market Forces might come after 13 and Altered Carbon, when the world is on the downturn already, but then, why does Saab still exist, not to mention the Ombudsman, and why are there petrol fueled cars but no AIs? These are very much 20th/ 21st century brands/ concepts and it seems odd those will survive/ return when the whole of the world goes to waste.

Also, if I get my facts right, MF was originally a short story or script, not meant per sé as a novel, but grew into one.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 10 November 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

...Also, if I get my facts right, MF was originally a short story or script, not meant per sé as a novel, but grew into one.

Yep. Also iirc it was his first novel but was released after the first or second Kovacs book.

[Tapper]

Oh, Abyss, I forgot to answer this, but yes, iirc, Quelcrist = Kelgris was the one to do the dirty wolf-on-man dirty dirty. I hope for the shaman's sake that she didn't give head.

Might well be she wanted Egar pushed out of that camp to then open an opportunity for Kovacs to save him from his brothers in a nice, nasty, manipulative 1-2 combination between the two of them.

Or not, and she had her own ploys, but seeing how the DC take interest in at the least Ringil and Egar (after all, Takakavach neatly dropped him near Ringil) and how much of an irreverant bastard Egar is (in the way we all just love), I guess he would probably have spat on Kelgris feet because he was busy knocking up a 16 year old cowmaid had she asked him politely to go and kill some dwenda in a swamp in the north, it might well be a bit of intrigue to get Egar moving to kill some dwenda in a swamp in the north.

And after that, there was nowhere for him to go but Yelteth, anyway.

[Abyss]

We haven't see a Dark Court attempt to directly influence Archeth yet, have we? Ringil and Egar absolutely, but not Archeth.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on 10 November 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

We haven't see a Dark Court attempt to directly influence Archeth yet, have we? Ringil and Egar absolutely, but not Archeth.

Nope. Perhaps because she is Kiriath and the DC might feature in her legends or knowledge, too, but under different names and circumstances?
Then again, in TSR Ringil muses on how Hoiran is known under a different name on the steppes, and Archeth is nothing if not educated, so if there was something, I can't see her 'remembering' it only later on when she comes face to face with one.

Or maybe they don't need to, because the Helmsmen are also in on it on they're a lot more able to play her than the Dark Court is.
Or if not all of them, then perhaps just the new creepy crawly one.... what if he came from the same place as the Dark Court? That would lend a whole new image to the warning made by Archeths wall-mounted Helmsman.
Finally, Archeth is already an arch enemy of the dwenda, just by race.

On a completely unrelated note: what I find slightly odd now that we know there is a link to the Kovacs novels, is skin colour. The Kiriath are exclusively black, the dwenda white, and the Yelteth sport some asian/ Japanese features and names. The much mentioned Yelteth cavalry saber that has a bad hand guard for example sounds a lot like a katana.

Yet in the Kovacs books, sleeves of all races are used through one another, or rather, certain sleeves for certain circumstances dependant on what suits the situation best (Maori for nuclear resistance is the clearest example), meaning race has no other connotation than clothing or fashion. And yet now, we see three vastly different characteristics in colouring cropping up. I mean, Archeth is only instantly recognized as Kiriath because she is black - just about the only person of her skin colour.

Yet, from all clues, the various races can breed with one another. What if the sleeving business broke down, and the people were stuck in utility sleeves bred for a certain purpose? Kiriath - heat resistance, endurance, perhaps also longevity, dwenda, some sort of gene modification like Kovacs' gecko/ wolf sleeves, humans, well, the latest earth fad before time broke down, then developing regional specific traits?

[amphibian]

Cocoreturns, on 09 November 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

Also Firfirdar - Virginia Vidaura (spelling?) possibly? - his trainer in the Envoys?

Firfirdar seems to occupy the "Oponn" role in this messed up pantheon. She's mentioned as being on her iron throne - que? - and being able to favor people with luck again and again throughout the books.

Anyone find a mention of Horchalat, another Dark Court member, in The Steel Remains? There's one mention in Cold Commands and it goes nowhere.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 10 November 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

Abyss, on 10 November 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

We haven't see a Dark Court attempt to directly influence Archeth yet, have we? Ringil and Egar absolutely, but not Archeth.

Nope. Perhaps because she is Kiriath and the DC might feature in her legends or knowledge, too, but under different names and circumstances?
Then again, in TSR Ringil muses on how Hoiran is known under a different name on the steppes, and Archeth is nothing if not educated, so if there was something, I can't see her 'remembering' it only later on when she comes face to face with one.

Am thinking the DC and the Helmsmen are on completely separate agendas, and then even within the two groups there may be factions at work.

Quote

...
On a completely unrelated note: what I find slightly odd now that we know there is a link to the Kovacs novels, is skin colour. The Kiriath are exclusively black, the dwenda white, and the Yelteth sport some asian/ Japanese features and names. The much mentioned Yelteth cavalry saber that has a bad hand guard for example sounds a lot like a katana.

Yet in the Kovacs books, sleeves of all races are used through one another, or rather, certain sleeves for certain circumstances dependant on what suits the situation best (Maori for nuclear resistance is the clearest example), meaning race has no other connotation than clothing or fashion. And yet now, we see three vastly different characteristics in colouring cropping up. I mean, Archeth is only instantly recognized as Kiriath because she is black - just about the only person of her skin colour.

Yet, from all clues, the various races can breed with one another. What if the sleeving business broke down, and the people were stuck in utility sleeves bred for a certain purpose? Kiriath - heat resistance, endurance, perhaps also longevity, dwenda, some sort of gene modification like Kovacs' gecko/ wolf sleeves, humans, well, the latest earth fad before time broke down, then developing regional specific traits?

Easy enough to explain... the Kiriath are descnedents of humans whose sleeves were designed to survive underground at high temps etc etc, thus when whatever disaster happened they were protected, and the dwenda had high tech energy-processing adaptations made to allow them to survive in the Grey Spaces, and were similarly not hit by the disaster. Both would have been small groups and likely cut off for a long time as a result of whatever went on.


...or, hey, dwarves, elves, whatever....

[Morgoth]

The funny thing with this book, and more so with The Steel Remains as I didn't like that nearly as much as The Cold Commands, is how much time I've spent thinking about the three main characters and their speculations.

Or, when all is said and done I mainly speculate on Archeth. Ringil and Egar are interesting, well done characters which are great examples of how one can take typical fantasy archetypes and turn them into something else entirely. Pretty much everything The Way of Kings lacked, to draw a comparison to the other book of fantasy I read recently. Archeth is on the other hand something much more unique in a fantasy setting, at least in my experience.

I mean, she is in essence a woman raised with what can be consider to be something close to our modern system of values, yet she lives as a person of means in the middle of something like the late Persian Empire. How long could I have stayed in her position before most, if not all of those values I brought with me had been eroded away by the culture I lived in. Ten years? Twenty? I certainly would not have been able to hold out for centuries.

What Archeth goes through every day of her life is a continous war to retain the very core of her identity, namely her Kiriath upbringing. Every day she choses not to wield the power her station affords her is a small victory. Every time she gives in, say by having sex with a slave given her by the emperor, is a defeat. The tragic thing is that as long as she cannot find her way back to the Kiriath there is no way for her to win. Eventually she'll have suffered so many defeats she'll just be another regular member of society, albeit with a long life span.

Another aspect of this can be reflected in how she deals with problems. Her dealings with the Emperor and members of his court can be said to be fairly modern. Much in how say an American diplomat can be expected to act in Afghanistan when faced with problems, corruption and all that. When she resorts to violence, like at the end of the first book, she suffers another defeat.

All three characters fight to retain who they are; Ringil refusing to repent or hide his homosexuality and Edgar struggles to stay true to his heritage. Ringil is in many ways the most successful, but Archeth's accomplishment is by far the most impressive.

My main gripe with Archeth is that although she's supposed to be more than a hundred years old, she acts like someone much younger. I believe that people who have lived long past a normal life span simply cannot be completely human. Or, at least not those who are intelligent and self observant enough to be aware of who and what they are. Like Archeth.

[Tapper]

Heh. Interesting bit, that Morgoth

I agree with parts of your analysis of Archeth, but let's not forget that while there is a shitload of repression in her behavior, she is also an escapist. From court, from reality, from the Helsmen, from her duty, from where she might make a difference.

Take Imrana - when I read about her, I think Lucretia Borgia - educated, smart, able to use her sexuality or disregard it (up to a certain level), does whatever the fuck she wants in life, able to maintain herself in her court position for much of her unmarried life.

Then consider Archeth: Jihral's protected advisor, who takes her whims in stride (up to a certain level), thoroughly heretical and a bit of a sensualist (in both Jihral and she are alike in that, although he seeks it in sex and she in drugs), her homosexuality is never mentioned as an issue (much unlike Ringil), allowed to speak the truth as she sees it, protected position in life.... and what does she do? Mope and hide and run away and flee in drugs. Honestly, were I Jihral, I'm not sure I'd put up with her because she isn't doing him very much good from where he's standing.

She has her personal struggle to retain her background, yes. At the same time, I highly doubt Grashgal (was that his name? Mentioned a LOT in TSR, also a likely half-blood, seems to have succeeded Fladaradnamnamanomnomnom as leader of the Kiriath after his death - I once suspected Archeth had some feelings for him) or her father would have been particularly proud of her conduct.
Likewise, she has been born and raised in this society, and I expect that much like many priviliged 2nd generation immigrants, she has been raised in both, instead of in just one. I guess that means that there really is a lack of feeling to belonging to either society.

For me, at times, she reads like a teenager with too much freedom, few responbilities, sadly very few friends (there's where longievity is a bitch) and a thoroughly fucked up personal life, and no parental authority to give a educational smack on her ass for messing up. I find it hard to judge her disfavourably as I quite like her antics, but at the same time, she's the character that, for me, has the least issues running against them (well, her and Egar, who also is a bit of a castout, but who is much better suited to the drifter life).

Yes, she has no other Kiriath remaining. But how much is that like a human being losing their parents, uncles, aunts, et cetera? Through her life, she ought to have learned that people die and life goes on. Including Kiriath who die. Including her mother, who was human. And who only now, in passing, got a mention.
With a life span like hers, she ought to realise that life goes on. And somehow, I just can't see that in her.

[Morgoth]

It seems we pretty much agree on several points here. What you're saying is pretty much a more in depth and better worded complaint as to how her age seemingly does not influence her behavior. In my opinion there's a seizable discrepancy between the person she is and the person you'd expect her to be based on the personality we're shown.

One of my main pet peeves in fantasy and sci fi is how characters presented to be hundreds if not thousands of years old act as if they've lived perhaps 20 or 30 years in total. Very few authors manage to show how alien someone that old would have to be. We're told that Archeth has lived for more than a century, right? Yet what we see is someone much much younger. Now, one might argue that some people never acquire wisdom, and are in essence the same person mentally when they're 80 as they were 60 years in the past. There are certainly many of those around, but Archeth is to analytical of herself to be that kind of person. She's too aware of herself and her surroundings to withstand the sort of mental development she'd undoubtedly have gone through advising 4 emperors. Yet from how she acts she might just as well have come out of her teens a decade ago.

[Tapper]

Morgoth, on 14 November 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

It seems we pretty much agree on several points here.

This reminds me of our conflicts in mafia