[Abyss]

The Archeth points are intersting. I put most of her 'immaturity' down to some serious parental/abandonment/resentment/isolation issues... note that she's gone in and out of heavy drug use any number of times. I also wonder whether her lesbianism isn't a sideways method of avoiding bringing another part blood child into the world, altho' nothing in her inner monologues have ever suggested that, tho aftyer a few centuries practice might become preference.

Her relationship with the Emperor is interesting. Mind games aside he seems to genuinely like her and want to accomodate her. The fact that she's been an advisor to four or so successive Emperor's suggests a combination of duty, stubborness and reluctance to be anything hut what she's always been, notwithstanding that she's technically immortal and could be anything at all.

[amphibian]

Just did a simultaneous re-read of The Steel Remains and The Cold Commands.

It isn't immediately obvious, but the pacing of TSR is oddly slow and doesn't really pick up until after Ringil is picked up by Seethlaw. TCC is much quicker of a start, but relies heavily upon the groundwork laid out by TSR.

For example, Eril, the henchman of Grace of Heaven, who owes Ringil a blood debt at the end of TSR is helping out Ringil with his Brotherhood connections in TCC. That connection is sort of left up to the reader to get and to understand why Eril stays so long, even in the face of plague. Another good example is the Pashla Menkarak arc, which was set in motion in TSR and completed in TCC.

The Helmsman Angfal is extremely interesting to me. Ripped loose from its ship and set to guide Archeth, but constrained by the possibility maze and the loyalty it must maintain to the overall Kiriath mission, Angfal has to fight on two fronts in order to do its job. The Space Helmsman Anasharal has no such compunctions about personal loyalty and seems to be working to complete the Kiriath mission.

But what that mission entails is not known. That's for the third book, The Dark Defiles.

I'm enormously excited for that - even more so than before, now that I've had time to soak in over multiple times how good Morgan's writing is, how strong the characters are and how interesting this story is.

Alas, I am no closer to figuring out what in the heck the Dark Gate is, who the Multi-limbed Dangerous Giftgiver is, how Hjel knows all of this stuff and why the Dark Court - at least Dakovash and Kwelgris seem united in playing a game with Risgillen of sending in the Ilwrack Changeling Reborn to wreck the dwenda plans and get the Kiriath mission coming to a tipping point. I agree with the speculation above that Ringil will be the agent of change, transmuting the Kiriath mission accomplishment into something else entirely - just as Ringil walked into and turned Pashla Menkarak's plan and Risgillen's plan into something else.

This is going to be fuckin' awesome.

[amphibian]

Oh, my speculation is that Hjel = the original Ilwrack Changeling.

[alt146]

Tapper, on 03 November 2011 - 08:30 AM, said:

Quote

I think i'm going to have to do a TSR re-read - anyone recall whether there were two or three immortals behind the scenes? I remember a male who helped Egar, a wolf-possessing one who helped the Shaman who was opposing Egar... others?

The shaman mentioned a couple. Takakavach, who aided Egar, is Dakovash, is Kovacs. The wolf-woman is Kelgris, thus Quelcrist. The others he named were not active in the story so far.

iirc, the three moons of Harlan's World are the three artificial constructs, although I do think they influenced HW's tides. The factt hat only one 'muhn' was mentioned and only the dwenda knew of it, points towards this being Earth.

It makes me think that somewhere between the cataclysmic event leading to the split between races and the breakdown of the earth, regular humanity stayed on earth in a linear timeline, the dwenda had escape routes to elsewhere, where time was botched, and the Kiriath were complete outsiders from elsewhere in the galaxy (aka a couple of centuries ahead of Kovacs future) with new and improved AIs.

This whole 'humanity brought back the martians' thing is very interesting, but do we have any proof of it?
All martians we encounter are dead for centuries, all their colonies were lost, and that was several centuries (in AC, probably later for the other books) past the colonization of Mars.
Personally, I think it is far more likely that humanity overextended and destroyed itself with all kinds of weird sci-fi weapons they themselves understood for only fifty percent. If that.

Oh, and I took the something 'dark is coming' bit as a reference to Ringil. He has a tendency to become what everyone warns against... first the menace is a lightning crackling dwenda, end of the book, Ringil crackles with energy and can (erratically) plane-shift. Now we had the Changeling, and lo and behold, Ringil commands an army of what-might-have-been-dead-people.

Maybe I misunderstood the ending of Woken Furies, but it seemed to me that the Martians all disappeared due to a technological singularity event made possible through the orbital cannons. The martians all had themsleves zapped and digitised. We know the cannons can unzap to certain extent, becasue they kept trying to put the humans that they had accidentally uploaded back - first into the mimint(?) things, then Quellcrist into the DeCom lady. Seeing how Quellcrist has a direct connection to the satellites that she's learning to master at the end of the novel, it seems it would be fairly easy for her to communicate with/unzap the martians stored in the orbitals.

[Obdigore]

Alt that is what I understood too. Of course I was under the impression that they were going to continue to spread the Quellcrist 'ideals', through force if needed.

[Abyss]

alt146, on 07 June 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

...Maybe I misunderstood the ending of Woken Furies, but it seemed to me that the Martians all disappeared due to a technological singularity event made possible through the orbital cannons. The martians all had themsleves zapped and digitised. We know the cannons can unzap to certain extent, becasue they kept trying to put the humans that they had accidentally uploaded back - first into the mimint(?) things, then Quellcrist into the DeCom lady. Seeing how Quellcrist has a direct connection to the satellites that she's learning to master at the end of the novel, it seems it would be fairly easy for her to communicate with/unzap the martians stored in the orbitals.

It was all implied but fairly subtle, especially the Martian part of what you suggest.
That said i love the notion that humanity's downfall came about because Quelcrist was a little too successful/ambitious in her revolution.

Obdigore, on 07 June 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Alt that is what I understood too. Of course I was under the impression that they were going to continue to spread the Quellcrist 'ideals', through force if needed.

I liked how even at the end of WF it's never 100% certain that the returnee is the real Falconer and if so, whether she's entirely herself. Not hard to speculate how it could go very very wrong. Kelgris' perpetually bleeding head and her general demeanour is certainly supportive that something went wrong.

[Aptorian]

I came into this book not really remembering The Steel Remains. I quickly remembered why I didn't really love the first book. The Cold Commands never really goes anywhere and in comparison to the Ringil parts, the Egar and Archeths parts seem almost pointless if not for brief sections of violence and info dumps on the old days. The book would be boring if it wasn't for the interesting writing and controversial characters.

I hated this book for about 80-90% of it, until I sort of had some shift in my point of view. Basically, Morgan isn't telling the story I expect to read. The book is more a brief window into the lives of three characters. It's not meant to go any where particular and doesn't really follow the ideas of a beginning, a middle and an end. It certainly doesn't pretend to be your average fantasy story. With that in mind this is a pretty dark and gripping book. A more curious experience than anything particularly satisfying to read.

I still don't really see a point to the whole trilogy.

[Coco with marshmallows]

So, anyone else think the Lizards are remnant KCCM / KCN that fled Wu? No?

[Nocturnal]

Okay, I'll try my best not to read any spoilers since I'm at the end of The Steel Remains. I liked the book a lot, maybe the crude writing and a lot of profanities spoiled the overall impression, but still it was a fun read. It doesn't have very much emotion, right? Well, except some reminiscing about the war, but that's more gruesome than emotional. I think it's gotten more, um deep I guess, after the appearance of the dwenda, I absolutely loved the way they're described, with the blue glow that made Ringil feel loss. And that venturing in the timeless Aldrain realm was really realistically described, made me live through every written word. Still I felt like all the characters are not of the kind you can get emotionally attached to, well at least I couldn't in this first book, maybe with the second that'll change.
Also, Seethlaw and Ringil are going to clash? Are they going to be something like mortals enemies, abusive love or similar? I'd like that more than seeing the dwenda die, he's much too hot for death.
Oh, another thing I liked was that the Aldrain are not overpowered, since they're coming to take back their land and using sorcery and whatnot, everyone would expect them to go on rampaging until every last human yields. But they also have a lot of weaknesses like any other race. I'd like to see the Kiriath return in full or at least to read a description of some of their mentioned war machines. I imagine them being more steampunk-ish than high-tech.

Edit:
Scratch the Seethlaw x Ringil fangirling, the dwenda got beheaded. This is such an odd book, now that I'm reflecting on it, I can't really recall the feelings I had while reading it. It left me almost empty, not really satisfied, maybe a bit disappointed, but still there were parts that were so real I could completely picture them in my mind. I guess I'd give it 4 out of 5 for uniqueness and well... fanservice, and I'm certainly reading the sequel soon.

This post has been edited by Nocturnal: 21 June 2012 - 11:58 PM

[Abyss]

Excerpt up from next book.
Some serious badass Egar Majak action there.

[amphibian]

Nocturnal, on 20 June 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Still I felt like all the characters are not of the kind you can get emotionally attached to, well at least I couldn't in this first book, maybe with the second that'll change.

Egar gets more likable, while still being a Mongolian barbarian adrenaline addict.

Ringil is kind of an aloof and rudely violent person for most of the book, but gets likability points later for sticking very strongly with his friends Egar and Archeth.

Archeth gets involved earlier on, but doesn't change a ton. She's functionally immortal though. Change is hard for her.

However, these are three very violent, very self-interested people that get along well with each other and their friends usually end up dead or in very interesting situations. It's hard to walk the balance between likable and fuzzy-wuzzy and I believe Morgan strikes that balance much better in the second book.

The pacing of the second book is better too. Things happen more quickly.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 22 June 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Nocturnal, on 20 June 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Still I felt like all the characters are not of the kind you can get emotionally attached to, well at least I couldn't in this first book, maybe with the second that'll change.

...these are three very violent, very self-interested people that get along well with each other and their friends usually end up dead or in very interesting situations. It's hard to walk the balance between likable and fuzzy-wuzzy ...

I though RM did an excellent job with these characters. they are all deeply scarred and flawed and far from shiny, and each has their own reasons for stepping into situations that essentially force them to be heroes... which is a key theme in this series and hence the name of it all.

Ringil should have been a worshipped hero. Instead he's gay in a world that can't accept it, he's a veteran in a world that wants to forget its battles, and he's a leader whom no one really wants to follow. And he's getting powerful in a thoroughly nasty way. Has a sword that may or may not be something more.

Archeth is an immortal among mortals. She's like a god among men but she was left behind by her fellow gods and is more than a little bitter about that. She feels a duty to advise the Emperor but doesn't really like him or his people all that much, but she doesn't know what else to do with herself. And she has one of the coolest multi-sharp-pointy-things fighting style i've seen written in fantasy. Also, gay.

Egar is a barbarian who enjoys the comforts of civilization a little too much and really just wants to shag and drink his life away. He's essentially a self-involved jackass. But every single time he sees an innocent in danger, especially one he just shebanged, he can't help but step up because it's the right thing to do. And stepping up usually involved hitting people until they break. Also, sword-spear. Not gay and gets violently pissed off when people give Ringil a hard time about it because you. Do Not. Fuck. With his friends.


I think these are complex and interesting characters, moreso that an archetypical prophesized farm boy or a rebellious princess. And they kill things so very well.
Given a choice between typical 'likeable fantasy characters with token flaws' and this, i go with this (which is also why i enjoy SE, ICE, Stover, GRRM, Bakker...).

[Nocturnal]

I do agree that the three of them are pretty complex. But, there are parts in the the first book where Morgan seems to try to get the reader to like them (I remember the end, where Ringil is all changed after the dwenda battle and comes to kill Grace. I thought "oh, here's an interesting moment, let's see if I will empathize with Ringil", but it's over in a few words, Ringil realizes he's never going to be the same and I'm left devoid of any feelings for him), but it just didn't work on me. Some of the flashbacks Ringil had, with the boy who died instead of him could've been pretty tear-jerking if it wasn't wasn't for the gruesomely detailed impaling.
I admit that the character I got the closest to liking was Archeth, especially when she talks about the Kiriath and that "these fucking humans" quote that's repeated a couple of times.

Also, after dwelling a bit on it, I think that it's better that Ringil killed the dwenda, this way it's not your average lovey-dovey homoerotic story. Though, what I don't get is why did Seethlaw have feelings towards Ringil when they basically only met and had sex?

[amphibian]

Nocturnal, on 23 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Also, after dwelling a bit on it, I think that it's better that Ringil killed the dwenda, this way it's not your average lovey-dovey homoerotic story. Though, what I don't get is why did Seethlaw have feelings towards Ringil when they basically only met and had sex?

It's a question that The Cold Commands sort of answers, but doesn't dwell on. Basically, there's something special about Ringil in particular in terms of magic and in attracting dwenda. Furthermore, Seethlaw has done this type of thing before with a special mortal - the Ilwrack Changeling who was the fulcrum for the Dwenda establishing an empire on that world.

There's also intimations that somehow Ringil might be Seethlaw's descendant (over quite a few generations) and explains the "marsh blood", but I don't think it's ever confirmed. The "marsh blood" in humans is seen to be a key to do something big magically for dwenda too.

[Abyss]

While the timing isn't exactly clear because they're in the grey time dimension, it seemed that Seethlaw and Ringil were actually together quite a while and sheboinging right through, so they actually had a bit more than just casual sex going.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 24 June 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

While the timing isn't exactly clear because they're in the grey time dimension, it seemed that Seethlaw and Ringil were actually together quite a while and sheboinging right through, so they actually had a bit more than just casual sex going.

Yeah, Ringil had enough time in the Grey Spaces to visit a ton of places only the dwenda know, to learn the dwenda language and culture to a degree, learn ikinri'ska in the cave from Hjel, the King in Waiting, and quite a bit more. He's spent the equivalent of years in the Grey Spaces - much like Corwin in the Amber Chronicles finding realities "increasingly distant from Amber" and thus faster in time.

But Morgan isn't quite as upfront about the time slippages as Zelazny was, so this can be tricky to keep track of and remember in explanations. Good catch, Abyss.

[Nocturnal]

But there was no talk of emotion while they were in the grey spaces. And wasn't Seethlaw basically pulling him here and there, not doing much else? They almost had no interaction after the tumble when they first met. It's just too vague. I ought to read the second book.

[Abyss]

Nocturnal, on 24 June 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

But there was no talk of emotion while they were in the grey spaces. And wasn't Seethlaw basically pulling him here and there, not doing much else? They almost had no interaction after the tumble when they first met. It's just too vague. I ought to read the second book.

Oh it IS vague, and it's surprising how emo Ringil gets looking back at their time in bk 1, but even so Ringil doesn't appear to be a prisoner and when he breaks from the Dwenda it's pretty easy because they weren't restraining him at all.

[Nocturnal]

/sigh
One third into The Cold Commands. There is absolutely no joy in this book is there? Only a grim-dark-brutal plot and three cynical and bitter characters that don't seem to like anything or anyone.

[Abyss]

Nocturnal, on 27 August 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

/sigh
One third into The Cold Commands. There is absolutely no joy in this book is there? Only a grim-dark-brutal plot and three cynical and bitter characters that don't seem to like anything or anyone.

Mostly but not entirely.
Keep reading.