[tiam]

I disagree. It not common knoweledge. Qb an Osserc come to the exact same colloquialism that they shouldnt have.

Im drunk while posting this and will post tomorrow

[worry]

Haha, it'd be cool if you could offer the text that makes you think that, but I do get that it's just a niggling thing like you said, so you don't have to go through the trouble if you don't feel like it. I wasn't trying to go back and forth about such a small issue, but just wanted to clarify my point. I do think we just disagree about this issue (so far), no big whoop.

[tiam]

Good god im hungover

P818-819 HOC MMPB

Loric has no idea what the Deragoth are when he asks his father and hes a scholar. If you have the books to hand read the pages and youll see what I mean

[D'rek]

We really don't know how the Dessimbelackis-Deragoth soul fragment + transfer works. The soldiers in Kalam's HoC vision don't seem to associate Dessim as being part of the Deragoth too closely (they talk about the two as being someone separate and both existing at once). IMO, it seems likely that when Dessimbelackis split and deposited his soul in the Deragoth, he maintained a separate physical body that he continued to control and direct the HFE from (I'm assuming its his same human physical body he had before, but who knows maybe he became a giant robot emperor). From what the soldiers said, it seems like they managed to banish some Deragoth and "destroy" some others (five and two?). What happened to Dessimbelackis's physical body after the Deragoth were beaten is a mystery, but I think his conscious self was more or less eliminated and his soul, while still existant inside the Deragoth, doesn't exert a conscious influence over the Deragoth.

[worry]

tiam, on 16 October 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Good god im hungover

P818-819 HOC MMPB

Loric has no idea what the Deragoth are when he asks his father and hes a scholar. If you have the books to hand read the pages and youll see what I mean

Ah. Still, that was only one idea. QB has plenty of other reasons to know an ancient term (and we also don't know how old L'oric is). And if I remember correctly, they're not the only characters to use the term. Shadowthrone, Cotillion, and Paran all call them the Deragoth. So do Telorast and Curdle.

[Abyss]

tiam, on 14 October 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

...The problem with this is Kallor claim is that in one of his empires the Malazan empire was little more than a province suggesting vast landmasses that we havnt seen. ...

I wouldn't over think that. It's easily enough handwaved as Kallor claiming that the space claimed by the ME amounts to the same space as one province of his Empire, plus hyperbole.

D, on 16 October 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

We really don't know how the Dessimbelackis-Deragoth soul fragment + transfer works. ... I think his conscious self was more or less eliminated and his soul, while still existant inside the Deragoth, doesn't exert a conscious influence over the Deragoth.

That would be my guess.
Tho' some small part of my brain thinks that an intact piece of Dessi's soul (or something) is hiding in Garath.

worrywort, on 16 October 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

...Shadowthrone, Cotillion, and Paran all call them the Deragoth. So do Telorast and Curdle.

Still not illogical to think the word was historically in more extensive use than QB tells Kalam. It's not like QB would say something like 'Yes, one of my souls was an ascendent high mage whose father was an elder god who lost his left testical fighting two deragoth on Otataral Island back in the 70s high as fuck on bad acid at a Rolling Stones concert' when he could get away with something more opaque.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 16 October 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

tiam, on 16 October 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Good god im hungover

P818-819 HOC MMPB

Loric has no idea what the Deragoth are when he asks his father and hes a scholar. If you have the books to hand read the pages and youll see what I mean

Ah. Still, that was only one idea. QB has plenty of other reasons to know an ancient term (and we also don't know how old L'oric is). And if I remember correctly, they're not the only characters to use the term. Shadowthrone, Cotillion, and Paran all call them the Deragoth. So do Telorast and Curdle.

Indeed and Dejihm Nebrahl also uses it in TBH as a first instinct when he sees the HOS. But thats actually my point to an extent. We're introduced to the Deragoth, and how there named by Osserc, as a colloquialism of there 'proper' title of Dera'tin'Jeragoth as a direct translation of HOD in Andiian. Thus if people come to the conclusion that there at the very least related to KG/Darkness, and Osserc tells us they have that 'stench', they would use the Andiian phrase. That everyone else comes to the same conclusion/colloquialism seems like an oversight to me,though a very small one.

As for the Dessimbelackis link, isnt it stated that he left the throne of the First Empire long before the madness of the Soletakne and Diverse caused the internal combustion of the FE.

In any case I think the relationship may be that Dessimbelackis domesticated the last of the Deragoth. Were directly told that the number of holy cities sprang up from the number of the Deragoth i.e. there were 7 holy cities because there were 7 Deragoth. How there only came to be 7 Deragoth is unknown, though I have recently read a POV section from Dejihm Nebrahl that the Deragoth brought it upon themselves (just found it p.478 MMPB ' Deragoth. Impossible- they were gone,swallowed by a nightmare of their own making. This is all wrong). What this means is unclear.

Its possible that DN means this in a literal way. By domesticating humans and giving them the limited organisational skills we see in HOC, they eventually turned upon the Deragoth thus leading to a level of extinction. However it may be that the limited human civilisation evolved, under the protection of the Deragoth, thus forming the original human cities. DN states that the first human city, name escapes me atm is nothing but dust (original in this sense as original to 7c as we have no idea of the relationship with the Kallorian empire). Thus this explains the HOC ghost comment that they have banished the holy protectors, the Deragoth who protected the original 7 holy cities. It seems plausible that these banished spirits ended up in the repositories in the fragment of KE the Nascent.

This post has been edited by tiam: 17 October 2011 - 05:11 PM

[Abyss]

I had originally figured that Dessi used a stray chunk of KE in his ritual along with the Deragoth, and the HoS were the result as a sort of 'Shadow' of the Hounds of Darkness, but Tulas Shorn in TtH (and actually that scene in HoC where an Edur mage makes Blind heel) killed that theory by reveling that the HoS were way older and went back to the old days when KE was still intact and populated by Edur.

Unless the KE element that Dessi used involved the Hounds, and CREATED a link between Hound and Deragoth that didn't previously exist...

- Abyss, sees the plot as it thickens.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 17 October 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

I had originally figured that Dessi used a stray chunk of KE in his ritual along with the Deragoth, and the HoS were the result as a sort of 'Shadow' of the Hounds of Darkness, but Tulas Shorn in TtH (and actually that scene in HoC where an Edur mage makes Blind heel) killed that theory by reveling that the HoS were way older and went back to the old days when KE was still intact and populated by Edur.

Unless the KE element that Dessi used involved the Hounds, and CREATED a link between Hound and Deragoth that didn't previously exist...

- Abyss, sees the plot as it thickens.

Its plausible that the link between the two was created by Dessimbelackis though given the age it seems more likely Tulas Shorn used something of the last 7 Deragoth in the making of the Hounds,possibly stealing their essence. Though timelines becomes a (unimportant as always) factor now. If we imagine Shorn did this after they were interred in the Nascent and thus likely after the banishment mentioned in HOC to the statues, that provides the link though that was after the Sundering and may be after Shorns time. If we imagine it was before the Sundering there is no fragment of KE to house the Deragoth so Tulas may simply have reached into Wu and stole somthing of the essence that provides a link aswell though the first option is neater. Trull Sengars legends hold that they were masters of the Hounds once, so those Edur that came through with Bloodeye knew of the Hounds. Whether they reneged on those Edur because of Bloodeyes actions or the death of Shorn is unknown but somehow they were caught in the fragment of KE commanded by an usurper, now ST.

Ive reread this post and it doesnt even make sense to me. Sigh. Theres so many balls in the air with the Hounds of anything and too much mystery surrounding the fate of the HFE and the Sundering of KE. We know fragmentary accounts and who the main players were but with overall structure it so difficult and frustrating to piece together.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Just a comment on the naming of the Deragoth. L'oric doesn't know what they are or what to call them and Osserc tells him they are the Deragoth. I know it is inferred that Osserc created that name because of his annoyance when L'oric corrects it. But I just read through that page and there really isn't anything to indicate that Osserc was the first one to call them that. He could easily have remembered the name from a conversation or a fragment of text thousands and thousands of years before that scene.

Quote

' You called the Deragoth "Hounds of darkness". Are they children of Mother Dark, then?' 'They are no-one's children,' Osric growled, then he shook his head. 'They have that stench about them, but in truth I have no idea. It just seemed an appropriate name. "Deragoth" in the Tiste Andii tongue.'

He calls the name appropriate, but that doesn't necessarily mean he came up with it, it could just mean he heard a reference to them long ago and agreed with the author/namer and thought it was a well chosen, appropriate name.


I agree L'oric not having any information about them seems odd, but that could have just been a convenient way to give them a little bit of backstory.

[tiam]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 17 October 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

Just a comment on the naming of the Deragoth. L'oric doesn't know what they are or what to call them and Osserc tells him they are the Deragoth. I know it is inferred that Osserc created that name because of his annoyance when L'oric corrects it. But I just read through that page and there really isn't anything to indicate that Osserc was the first one to call them that. He could easily have remembered the name from a conversation or a fragment of text thousands and thousands of years before that scene.

Quote

' You called the Deragoth "Hounds of darkness". Are they children of Mother Dark, then?' 'They are no-one's children,' Osric growled, then he shook his head. 'They have that stench about them, but in truth I have no idea. It just seemed an appropriate name. "Deragoth" in the Tiste Andii tongue.'

He calls the name appropriate, but that doesn't necessarily mean he came up with it, it could just mean he heard a reference to them long ago and agreed with the author/namer and thought it was a well chosen, appropriate name.


I agree L'oric not having any information about them seems odd, but that could have just been a convenient way to give them a little bit of backstory.

Hell maybe your right though it till doesnt fit for me. Still a really small annoyance ive moaned about and clogged this thread up with

[Abyss]

L'oric not knowing them isnt really a problem. It's not like every ascendent high mage has to know everything about everything. If he spent most of his time in Kurald Liosan and then emerged and joined the Whirlwind there's no reason he would have spent much time studying obscure pre-civilization bear-dogs.