[Jaghut#1]

Whatever happened to this guy? He was the ruler of the first Empire and if I'm correct he somehow shifted his soul to the Deragoth. But wouldn't that still mean that he's alive? He seems a very interesting character, actually now that I think about it a book about the First Empire would be fantastic.

[worry]

Well, you kind of answer your own question. He divided his soul among the last Deragoth. We see them in TBH. Their fates aren't exactly sealed, and we know they seem to have goals if not a plan, and so they're out there somewhere. It's unclear to me how much control Dess has over the Deragoth, if any, but if he has a plan I'd wager it has something to do with Shadow (via the Hounds).

[Abyss]

Yah, there was an almost passing comment from Cotillion iirc, in TOLL or a later book, confirming that Dessi's soul was split among the remaining Deragoth.

There's still a big question mark around the connection to the Hounds of Shadow, since the whole 'Rake Dragnipurs two hounds, their souls are trapped in deragoth statutes, breaking the statues draw the deragoth whether or not their souls are in there' thing is largely unexplained.

My entirely speculative explanation is that Dessi had a deal with the last deragoth, and used some element of their power, with a chunk of broken Kurald Emurlahn, in his shapeshifter ritual that ultimately destroyed the human First Empire. The failed ritual splintered his soul among the deragoth but left a link to Shadow in place. it can't be coincidence that going into the series, there were seven deragoth left and seven Hounds of Shadow.

[Defiance]

On one hand, it seems that the Deragoth definitely know what they're doing. On the other hand, we never see them semble, which suggests that he might be lost, in a manner similar to Treach before he died. The medium would be something along the lines of there's still an intent, but after being trapped/a beast(s) for so long, he's gone feral and doesn't think like other humanoids.

Just wild speculation, though. I'm sure there are others who have more sound and thorough speculation than I do.

[tiam]

Defiance, on 13 October 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

On one hand, it seems that the Deragoth definitely know what they're doing. On the other hand, we never see them semble, which suggests that he might be lost, in a manner similar to Treach before he died. The medium would be something along the lines of there's still an intent, but after being trapped/a beast(s) for so long, he's gone feral and doesn't think like other humanoids.

Just wild speculation, though. I'm sure there are others who have more sound and thorough speculation than I do.

Id say there definitely lost as in unable to semble. The HOS are portrayed as having intelligence especially as pack hunters. I really want more information on the link between the two tbh.

[Abyss]

From HoC, TB and TtH we know the HoS possess 'something' that the Deragoth want badly enough to pursue them around the world for. It's not coincidental... the Dera' are definitely out to do something (kill, eat, absorb, we dunno) that the Hounds intend to avoid.

The connections are a bit fuzzy... in GotM Rake kills two HoS, their souls go to Dragnipur, Paran tricks them into entering the gate to Darkness.

In MoI we meet Garath, who could be a Hound of Shadow, but "is reluctant" according to Envy.

In HoC Onrack mentions that Dessimbelackis has seven d'ivers bodies.

Trull and Onrack find the seven Dera' statues in the border warren and two are 'occupied', apparently with souls. It's never stated expressly that the two souls in the statues are the souls of the dead Hounds... now that i think about it, there are two Hounds unaccounted for aside from the seven active in GotM... but for simplicity's sake let's say Trull and Onrack found the two that Rake killed/Paran released. Trull smashes one statue, a deragoth shows up, smashes the other, another deragoth shows up, and off they go to cause trouble. Notice they DIDN'T smash the other statues.

Quick Ben calls them 'Hounds of Darkness', but he adds that's just a convenient name, not a real title.

Then in TB when Paran wants the Deragoth to take out Poliel, he has Hedgeghost detonate the remaining statues. Then the remaining five deragoth are on the move, pursuing the HoS.

Before things go sploody, Paran notes that the statues were made by people who worshipped the Deragoth, and that sacrifices had taken place there (AFTER Trull and Onrack visitted). Those worshippers are a bit of a wild card... no Hounds had died, but whatever they did may have played a part in the Deargoth reaction to hedge's cusserfeste.

In TB Dejim recalls that the deragoth had a master. The timing, and possibly a comment from Heboric back in DG, seems to suggest this was after Dessimbelackis had already disappeared.

In RG Taralack Veed remembers a Gral story where 'someone', a male mage, shows up with what sounds like the Deragoth.

In TtH Cotillion tells us Dessimbelackis' soul is split up between the remaining Deragoth.


...and i think that's all we know.

[Sinisdar Toste]

There's also the sighting in rarakus memory Warren. That's where osseric gives us deragoth

[tiam]

Theres a problem. Osserc gives the bastardised name of the Deragoth yet Loric corrects his by describing the exact translation of HOD as Dera'tin Jeragoth or something like that and claims they have the 'feel' of darkness to them (though this could simply be shadow thus explaining a connection to the HOS). QB later calls them the Deragoth. Now Osserc called them a slight variation of their name in Andiian so how would QB come to the exact same name?

Granted its probably just Erikson using the same name as a description so the reader gets it but still bothers me

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 13 October 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

There's also the sighting in rarakus memory Warren. That's where osseric gives us deragoth

True, establishing that the Deragoth were active on 7C back when the Eres or more primitive humans were around, keeping the K'chain off the continent, which probably explains why the human First Empire arose there.

I vaguely recall that someone somwhere also suggests that the actual Seven Cities were each established for one of the remaining deragoth, not some other ascendents as is generally thought.

That would put the link between the human first empire and the deragoth even further back than dessimbelackis tracking them down and cutting a deal.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 13 October 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 13 October 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

There's also the sighting in rarakus memory Warren. That's where osseric gives us deragoth

True, establishing that the Deragoth were active on 7C back when the Eres or more primitive humans were around, keeping the K'chain off the continent, which probably explains why the human First Empire arose there.

I vaguely recall that someone somwhere also suggests that the actual Seven Cities were each established for one of the remaining deragoth, not some other ascendents as is generally thought.

That would put the link between the human first empire and the deragoth even further back than dessimbelackis tracking them down and cutting a deal.

Its the Kalam flashback in HOC I think. Atleast the part about them being the 7 holy protectors

[worry]

Yah, you could say that the Deragoth as a species were pretty special to mortal man, in how instrumental they were in the development of humanity, and so I don't think it would be unreasonable to imagine the final 7 were treated as deities even before Dessi. They are animals, but also they are creations, and they are smarter than wild beasts -- they are probably at least on the same level as Togg & Fanderay.

In terms of the name, I can't think of any reason not to believe that "Deragoth" is the popular term for the species among humans, even if it originated as a bastardized version of a TA word. I mean it could have even been communicated TO humans BY the Deragoth themselves, psychically. Dessi struck a deal with them, there's some cross-species understanding going on. It's plausible that QB could have picked up the word from texts alone (not saying those texts definitely exist), but QB's origin is open enough that he could know the term from any number of sources.

Re-reading your post, tiam, it may also be that you're thinking Osserc and QB independently bastardized the TA word themselves? I don't think that's the implication, I think "Deragoth" was the popular term for them already, and that L'oric was just being pedantic because he's mad at his pops.

[Jaghut#1]

Only Dessimbelackis seems like a very powerful character and one who wouldn't just disappear without a trace or just split his soul within the Deragoth. Maybe it's just me but I still think he has a role to play. Also which came first, Kallor's empire or the First Empire?

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 13 October 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

...In terms of the name, I can't think of any reason not to believe that "Deragoth" is the popular term for the species among humans, even if it originated as a bastardized version of a TA word....

I could be utterly wrong about this, but i was under the impression that somewhere between the end of the human First Empire and Onrack shattering the statute, no one had seen a deragoth in couple thousand years, hence why only old ascendents like Ossi and people with special access to information like QB would use the name. To Kalam they were something to avoid and to Karsa they were just big-ass bear dogs in need of neutering.

Jaghut#1, on 13 October 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

Only Dessimbelackis seems like a very powerful character and one who wouldn't just disappear without a trace or just split his soul within the Deragoth. Maybe it's just me but I still think he has a role to play. Also which came first, Kallor's empire or the First Empire?

The whole Dessi/HoS/Deragoth thing remains unexplained. We could accept that the Ritual went sideways, his soul is fractured, and that's the end of it, but bits like Garath's link to the HoS keep me wondering.

I believe the order more or less runs KC hive empires/Deragoth on 7C/Jaghut Empires, Jaghut War on Death, KC-KN civil war/Tiste Invasion parts 1 and 2, various Jaghut Tyrants, Imass First Empire, T'lan Imass Jihads vs Jaghuts, Kallorian Empire, then human FE.

[Hocknose]

Abyss, on 14 October 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

I believe the order more or less runs KC hive empires/Deragoth on 7C/Jaghut Empires, Jaghut War on Death, KC-KN civil war/Tiste Invasion parts 1 and 2, various Jaghut Tyrants, Imass First Empire, T'lan Imass Jihads vs Jaghuts, Kallorian Empire, then human FE.

I'd always assumed that the Human First Empire was well before the Kallorian empire. I have no evidence to back that up mind but I thought there were thousands of years in it...

[Abyss]

Hocknose, on 14 October 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 October 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

I believe the order more or less runs KC hive empires/Deragoth on 7C/Jaghut Empires, Jaghut War on Death, KC-KN civil war/Tiste Invasion parts 1 and 2, various Jaghut Tyrants, Imass First Empire, T'lan Imass Jihads vs Jaghuts, Kallorian Empire, then human FE.

I'd always assumed that the Human First Empire was well before the Kallorian empire. I have no evidence to back that up mind but I thought there were thousands of years in it...

It's not entirely clear, I'm also pretty certain the HFE was after the Fall, which signalled the end of Kallor's Empire.

Tho to be fair, TtH strongly suggests Kallor had more than one Empire even after the Elder Gods cursed him, so, kind of like the Chainings, it's not entirely clear what's being referenced.

And just to complicate things further, it's been suggested that the Shapeshifter ritual didn't destroy the HFE right away, so we don't know how long it was around after Dessi dissappeared into the Deragoth and before the T'lan Imass showed up to stop the mad shapeshifters. We could assume that the deragoth hung around 7C for a while tho', leading the the seven (eight... nine... whatever) city-states establishing themselves in the aftermath.

We also know that the Letheri Empire was a HFE colony that became independent in the aftermath of the Shapeshifter mess, and afaik they never encountered one of Kallor's Empires.

My thinkymeatz hurt.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

In the MoI Prologue K'rul thinks on how the Human First Empire was born on the ashes of the Imass First Empire but almost immediately after another Empire was created on another continent by a peerless warrior crueler than the Jaghut Tyrants. So, it seems that the First Empire came,well,first but that Kallor's empire was really a close second.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 13 October 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

Yah, you could say that the Deragoth as a species were pretty special to mortal man, in how instrumental they were in the development of humanity, and so I don't think it would be unreasonable to imagine the final 7 were treated as deities even before Dessi. They are animals, but also they are creations, and they are smarter than wild beasts -- they are probably at least on the same level as Togg & Fanderay.

In terms of the name, I can't think of any reason not to believe that "Deragoth" is the popular term for the species among humans, even if it originated as a bastardized version of a TA word. I mean it could have even been communicated TO humans BY the Deragoth themselves, psychically. Dessi struck a deal with them, there's some cross-species understanding going on. It's plausible that QB could have picked up the word from texts alone (not saying those texts definitely exist), but QB's origin is open enough that he could know the term from any number of sources.

Re-reading your post, tiam, it may also be that you're thinking Osserc and QB independently bastardized the TA word themselves? I don't think that's the implication, I think "Deragoth" was the popular term for them already, and that L'oric was just being pedantic because he's mad at his pops.

No a direct translation of HOD is Dera'tin Jeragoth but as a colloquialism Osserc calls them the Deragoth. As I think Abyss noted above the Deragoth havnt been seen. When the Azalan demons are unleashed by Kalam the Deragoth have almost vanished from their racial memory. That QB comes to the same colloquialism is my point.

Abyss, on 14 October 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

Hocknose, on 14 October 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Abyss, on 14 October 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

I believe the order more or less runs KC hive empires/Deragoth on 7C/Jaghut Empires, Jaghut War on Death, KC-KN civil war/Tiste Invasion parts 1 and 2, various Jaghut Tyrants, Imass First Empire, T'lan Imass Jihads vs Jaghuts, Kallorian Empire, then human FE.

I'd always assumed that the Human First Empire was well before the Kallorian empire. I have no evidence to back that up mind but I thought there were thousands of years in it...

It's not entirely clear, I'm also pretty certain the HFE was after the Fall, which signalled the end of Kallor's Empire.

Tho to be fair, TtH strongly suggests Kallor had more than one Empire even after the Elder Gods cursed him, so, kind of like the Chainings, it's not entirely clear what's being referenced.

And just to complicate things further, it's been suggested that the Shapeshifter ritual didn't destroy the HFE right away, so we don't know how long it was around after Dessi dissappeared into the Deragoth and before the T'lan Imass showed up to stop the mad shapeshifters. We could assume that the deragoth hung around 7C for a while tho', leading the the seven (eight... nine... whatever) city-states establishing themselves in the aftermath.

We also know that the Letheri Empire was a HFE colony that became independent in the aftermath of the Shapeshifter mess, and afaik they never encountered one of Kallor's Empires.

My thinkymeatz hurt.

Kallors multiple empires are unknown. There is a quote in the MOI prologue that states that 198000 years before the current series was the Fall, thus ending Kallors Empire, and when the EG get together they discuss the rise of a human empire on a different continent. Whether Dessimbelackis was the first Emperor or one of the later rulers of the FE is unkknown but the Kallorian Empire that we know of ends around the burgeoning of this civilisation.

The problem with this is Kallor claim is that in one of his empires the Malazan empire was little more than a province suggesting vast landmasses that we havnt seen. That or Kallor is bullshitting which I actually favour in this instance. Also the EG commenting on a burgeoning (my word not theres) empire on 7cities (presumably though I believe the phrase used is 'on a distant continent') suggests substantial power i.e. continent spanning atleast 7cities. The Pannion Domin is described (by Dujek I believe) as a middling sized empire though ofcourse EG and humans have a different scale. What im getting at is the HFE may have already been substantial by the time it was mentioned by the EG after the Fall by the very fact it was mentioned by them.

[worry]

But this is a world full of immortals. It doesn't matter if Deragoth are actually around for the word to survive somewhere in the historical or archaeological record (and I think we can agree that Quick Ben is a scholar). I didn't mean to suggest that the common man on the street, in the current era, was discussing how awesome the Deragoth used to be and he wishes they were still around. Just that it's not so shocking when various individuals plausibly "in the know" would be using the term.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 14 October 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

But this is a world full of immortals. It doesn't matter if Deragoth are actually around for the word to survive somewhere in the historical or archaeological record (and I think we can agree that Quick Ben is a scholar). I didn't mean to suggest that the common man on the street, in the current era, was discussing how awesome the Deragoth used to be and he wishes they were still around. Just that it's not so shocking when various individuals plausibly "in the know" would be using the term.

Buts that my point. Using the 'term'. Its a term Osserc comes to by a colloquial shortening of the actual name that QB just so happens to use.

Its not a big deal, not a huge plot hole and was used for characterisation so Osserc could then follow Lorics correction of 'so like your mother' and they could get into that debate. It just annoyed me thats all

[worry]

I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that QB and Osserc aren't coming to the same colloquialism independently. The colloquial shortened version exists before the moments we see Osserc and QB use them, and it just adds to the mystery of who QB is that he's a "modern" man who knows it. So I essentially agree with Abyss's point, and don't consider it a flub (when I said it was the popular term among humans, I meant during the First Empire -- before they disappeared from the world -- so I was never in disagreement with Abyss's take, just wasn't clear enough in my initial post about which people I meant).