[Shadow Dancer]

What the hell the Host go from the end of TCG? we know very little (there can only been speculations since there's not the slightest of hints, I'm hoping in a least a reference in the Toblakay trilogy) but:

-some of the retired bonehunters managed to return in the empire (Fiddler,...) and since there are not exactly trade routes which connect Kolanse and the Malazan empire, special transports had to be organized (or through warrens, but seems unlikely Ganoes moves them through warrens, on this point I await possible rebuttal)

- since Tavore will probably remain close to Ganoes then Civil War (against Mallick Rel) is not be considered (but on the other hand the FA threat is over, so we don't really know if her unwillingness to fight Rel dependend on principles or the presence of a more "global" threat).

- Seems highly unlikely they become mercenaries or rulers of Kolanse.

- If I'm not mistaken (I read that reference in the italian versions) Grub will become First Sword of the (late) Empire and he is with the Host, so... ???

This post has been edited by Shadow Dancer: 16 September 2011 - 08:25 AM

[Kanubis]

I\m not sure Tavore would bother overthrowing Rel once she finds out that the Wickans had him by the balls at the end of RotCG and got the histories... corrected.

[D'iversify]

Shadow Dancer, on 16 September 2011 - 08:24 AM, said:

- If I'm not mistaken (I read that reference in the italian versions) Grub will become First Sword of the (late) Empire and he is with the Host, so... ???

Yes, it's in a historical fragment heading a chapter in an earlier book. But since there are no other historical sources regarding the late Empire, we can't know the circumstances. I would guess it occurs sometime after tCG, given that Grub, however powerful he may be, is still finding himself at this point.

[Salt-Man Z]

D, on 16 September 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

Shadow Dancer, on 16 September 2011 - 08:24 AM, said:

- If I'm not mistaken (I read that reference in the italian versions) Grub will become First Sword of the (late) Empire and he is with the Host, so... ???

Yes, it's in a historical fragment heading a chapter in an earlier book. But since there are no other historical sources regarding the late Empire, we can't know the circumstances. I would guess it occurs sometime after tCG, given that Grub, however powerful he may be, is still finding himself at this point.

It's at the start of Chapter 19 in HoC, actually; I just read it last night.

It is an interesting question to ponder, though, how the survivors of TCG re-integrate back into Rel's Empire, if they even do at all.

[Shadow Dancer]

Salt-Man Z, on 16 September 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

It is an interesting question to ponder, though, how the survivors of TCG re-integrate back into Rel's Empire, if they even do at all.

the re-integration was my point exactly, the Host cannot go anywhere near the empire without igniting Civil War, since I don't really sea the Parans kneeling before Rel and the latter would immediately see them as a threat. In this case South Genabackis or even Korel are out (if the Parans want to avoid war).

It's not like Ganoes will go on as Master of the Deck with an entire army at his service (the logistics would be a nightmare, even for him and the army doesn't seem willing to let go of him, as Mathok and his desert warriors), so what to do with them?

[iRFNA]

Kill them, make a card representing betrayal, empower it with their tortured souls, and curse the malazan world for thousands of years with its power.

[Abyss]

Keep in mind that as far as we know, unlike the 14th, the Host never formally broke from the Empire. (they just ignored a few orders, and that was Paran's doing) . It wouldn't be terribly difficult to disband the Host (with pay) and allow the soldiers to return to Leth or the Empire as they prefer. While Rel has shown a tendency to engage in mass military crucifixions, there's no real reason to provided the soldiers keep a low profile.

Paran himself is a different story, but he's resident in Darujhistan, not the Empire.

[nacht]

Abyss, on 20 September 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

Keep in mind that as far as we know, unlike the 14th, the Host never formally broke from the Empire. (they just ignored a few orders, and that was Paran's doing) . It wouldn't be terribly difficult to disband the Host (with pay) and allow the soldiers to return to Leth or the Empire as they prefer. While Rel has shown a tendency to engage in mass military crucifixions, there's no real reason to provided the soldiers keep a low profile.

Paran himself is a different story, but he's resident in Darujhistan, not the Empire.

He is a resident of the Azath. That is a whole different world :-)
Azathnai, Azathanai, what are you
I wonder

[Abyss]

nacht, on 20 September 2011 - 05:31 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 September 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

...
Paran himself is a different story, but he's resident in Darujhistan, not the Empire.

He is a resident of the Azath. That is a whole different world :-)...

True, but point being he 'resigned' his commission as of end of MoI (plus being 'outlawed' and declared dead) and took up residence in D'n and then in the Finnest House.

Technically one might say he signed back on with the Empire in TB when he took over the Host and continued to act as High Fist right through to TCG, but it seems unlikely he would head back.

Since Tavore was outlawed at the end of TB, it's likely there is nothing left of House Paran in Unta for either of them to return to.

[Kanese S's]

Someone else posted a while ago that as they recalled, Tavore didn't disband the Bonehunters so much as tell them that they could do what they wanted, and so inferred that at least for a time, many may have followed Tavore.

Grub, at least, has to get back to the Empire at some point so that he can eventually be First Sword. Many of the Bonehunters retire back in the Empire, so at some point quite a lot of them do return. The scene at the end of TCG seems to me to be quite a few years later, though, so how long this takes is in question. Maybe Shurq Elalle gets another ship and runs a ferry service for retiring Bonehunters or something.

As for the Host... it's not formally outlawed, so technically it would have no problem returning to the Empire. However, because it's led by Ganoes Paran at this point, doing so would cause a problem, what with Rel seeing Paran as a very real threat.

If both the Host and the Bonehunters returned at the same time, it would definitely be an issue for the current Emperor. But returning seems to make the most sense, as what else are they going to do?

Perhaps SE or ICE will enlighten us as to what happens. Maybe not as a major plot point of another novel, but perhaps just referenced in one, possibly OST or Assail, or in the eventual Toblakai books. Would be nice to know what happens.

[Migol]

Just my 2 cents, seeing Paran lead a campaign to overthrow Rell would be -epic-.

[Abyss]

True but that sort of runs contrary to his MoD role. It's not like Paran was all that fond of Laseen or the Empire really.

Tho seeing Tavore do it would be just as awesome if not moreseo.

[Rupert]

I do not understand why everyone is set against them settling in Kolanse.Tavore's duty to the world is over now that the CG is away,it's time for her and the BH to have something back and since they are outlawed by the empire and there is a country with a free throne thanks to them it makes sense for them to stop there.


1)Returning to the empire is highly unlikely with Rel as emperor.While he might be pragmatic enough to accept the Host it would make no sense for them to give him more power.He is still an evil scheming bastard and in ICE works we see that

Spoiler

his cult is still active even after losing control over Mael and Mael is close enough to the Parans to warn them of how dangerous he is.

2)Fighting against Rel is highly probable but i see it more as something to do in the future than an immediate aftermath to the events in tCG.The bonehunters have burned most of their ships and even with the Host they are only 2 armies against what Rel has managed to recruit after the events of RotCG.They need time to rebuild,a fleet and a reason to fight versus helping to free a country in need of help that is right there where they are.

Still a sudden attack on the empire is not to be discounted.


3)Joining Lether is an option but for Tavore and the BH the story is just beginning and they need to be independent to do it.


4)Ruling Kolanse seems the most likely thing to happen for several reasons:

-The Letherii rulers and the queen Fireheart are their close allies.

-Tavore was always ambitious,we know that from from GotM,long before her mission to save the world and now she is free to pursue her ambitions.There is also the prophetic "She will be queen"
i think from Silchas Ruin that many think related to Sandalath,but she already had her own prediction in the reading in Letheras as Queen of HHDark so Silchas words would be redundant.Also SE loves to hide as many things in a single phrase or event as he can.

-Ganoes is MotD,he has no need for an army(and he makes a really poor commander in a strictly military sense,his victories are due to his powers of Master ,the synergy between him,Quick and the others and the fact that the sappers acted against his direct orders regarding the munitions).Paran's Host is better employed under Tavore Paran.Also the Host and the BH need a place to stay and recover after the long period of fighting and they really would be wasted as mercenaries.

-the Kolansi people have just been freed from 30 tor more years of brutal oppression,mind control and persecutions.They were ruled by the FA,a race extremely minimalistic,pragmatic and mysantropic that had absolutely no interest in the humans other that as slaves.It is hinted that most books were burned,that the mind-controlled soldiers were forced to hunt their own people and that there was no contact or trade with the outside for many years.
Try and imagine life for the civilian population used to support the army:years of brutal labor with no place for expression,fun,creativity or free thinking;no other productions in the nation other than food,clothing,blacksmithing and other supplies.

The soldiers probably fared much worse;repetitive training for years at best,innocent blood on their hands at worst all under mind control.
Think of Sorry in GotM right after the possession ended,she had to be healed as probably many of the Kolansi will have to and what is the best tool to heal the mind? Mocka,a warren in the continent where the only magery known to most is that of holds and from the conversation between Seren Pedac and the CG mage(forgot the name)it was hinted that power over the human mind is a rare if not absent thing in Lether.

Even without mind damage the FA stayed for enough time to screw up generations of people.Many will probably not remember what money is,how to read nor will have the commons sense needed to live in a normal society and who are they neighbours? Greedy Letheri and Bolkando ready to exploit the ignorant.

To the point,Kolanse needs someone strong to protect it from outside armies and clashing cultures and someone caring and compassionate to heal the population and the Parans have both these qualities.

On the positive side Kolanse is as close as we will ever get to a "blank state" nation,something that can be shaped by its rulers and who would be better than the main characters?



-I think of Kolanse as a new starting point for a new empire,a MalazV2.Let's compare old guard and new guard,there are parallels.

Empire's Old Guard:Kellanved(crazy mage),Dancer(assassin),Tayschrenn(fire mage-priest of D'rek),Dassem Ultor/Dessembrae(god-touched soldier very hard to kill) and the more normal people like Dujek Onearm and the others.

Tavore's New Guard:Quick Ben(crazy mage),Kalam(assassin),Deadsmell(ice mage-priest of Hood),Ruthan Gudd/Rynthan(god-touched soldier very hard to kill) and the more normal people like Rythe Bude and the others.

I left Surly out of the list as her parallel is a bit harder to guess;she was mostly dedicated to the internal affairs,spying and covert operations inside the empire until Kel and Dancer started to be more and more absent.
Tavore's right hand is Lostara Yil but the character that parallels Surly the most is actually Ganoes:he displayed a penchant for investigation at the Itko Kan massacre and worked under cover as Adjunct Lorn's aide for 2 years,becoming the only one with such background(other than Kalam but he is more of a fighter than a subtle guy,he is Claw trained but acts more like a Talon),his powers as MotD allows him some sort of scrying,deck prophecy and the power to bypass walls,all usefull for a spy,the link with the hound makes him deadly even with his bare hands and maybe some heightened sensitivity(or that is thank to the MotD powers,like spotting Blend and sensing health from the girl in G'danisban).There is also the symbolism between a hound and investigation.

Also Ganoes would fit in a more positive light with 2 themes associated with Surly:
"Thronemaster"(the meaning of the name Laseen) as the one who gives Tavore the means to free Kolanse and get the throne and as the soft power that takes care of the nation.
"Betrayer"since as the MotD he has to put the interests of the world above Kolanse and will have to leave the nation to fulfill his duties,once the situation gets better.

As for Lostara Yil she can probably stay at Tavore's side but i have my Crazy theories about her fate


So these are my reasons for the malazans to stay in Kolanse,what do u think?

[Kanese S's]

We know at least two Malazans do not stay in Kolanse (Grub and Fiddler). Likely, more return to the Empire as well (Fiddler's partying it up with somebody at Smiley's).


Also, I never read Tavore Paran as particularly ambitious. Driven, yes, but not power hungry.

[Asharak]

"4)Ruling Kolanse seems the most likely thing to happen for several reasons"

I completly agree with this. Tavore and Ganoes cant go back to the empire, they would probably be constantly hunted by Malicks Claw. I dont think they have the man power to beat him in a fight either.

I dont really see The Bonehunters and The Host leaving Kolanse for a while anyway, they would probably want to take a long break after all that fighting and marching. I also got the impression that The Host was now Parans army and wouldnt leave him behind any time soon.

Kolanse is probably one of the safest and peaceful places in the world right now, seams to me rebuilding and living there would be a good " And they lived happily ever after" scenario for the Malazan survivors.




"Ganoes is MotD,he has no need for an army(and he makes a really poor commander"

I dont see any evidence for him being a bad commander, he was described as being a really good one throughout TCG. He had the love and respect of his men, and Kalam and Quick believed in him. Paran using his powers to win isnt a sign of anny lack in skill, just that he is clever. He did beat brother Graves army in a straight fight(though of screen) so i dont think he is particulary lacking, though Tavore is probably a better tactician.

[D'iversify]

Asharak, on 27 September 2011 - 08:51 AM, said:

I completly agree with this. Tavore and Ganoes cant go back to the empire, they would probably be constantly hunted by Malicks Claw. I dont think they have the man power to beat him in a fight either.

The Claw are probably still too damaged and disarrayed, as well as divided, following the losses they incurred in tBH and RotCG and the death of Laseen to be a major policing force in the Empire, though Mallick will no doubt rebuild them or develop his own assassin force in future.

[Asharak]

Yea, but at the end of TCG its been a couple of years since the events of ROTCG, who knows how much Malicks dominance and Claw force has grown in that time. Would probably take a while for the Parans to go home to the empire as well.

[Rupert]

Kanese S, on 27 September 2011 - 01:11 AM, said:

We know at least two Malazans do not stay in Kolanse (Grub and Fiddler). Likely, more return to the Empire as well (Fiddler's partying it up with somebody at Smiley's).

True Fiddler will probably return to the empire soon after the events of tCG,there is the Deadhouse in Malaz that could be used to transport quietly some returning soldiers

As for Grub and Bottle(he has to meet with Nether) i see them returning as conquerors after a clash between the Old empire and the New one.

There were a couple of interesting quotes at the opening of chapters that speak of the future:one was something like "the priest of elder Mael dreams of rising seas"" hinting at the Jhistal working some global disaster that will need to be stopped.


Another is this in tCG:

"Even a man who has lived a life of sorrows will ask for one more day" from the Prayers of the Condemned,Kolanse Imperial Archives,Anonymous.


So we know for certain that Kolanse will be a sovereing empire,and along with my previous post it's almost certain that iw will be Tavore's empire.

Kanese S, on 27 September 2011 - 01:11 AM, said:

Also, I never read Tavore Paran as particularly ambitious. Driven, yes, but not power hungry.

There was a quote that hinted at her aiming at the position of the Adjunct somewhere in Ganoes thoughts,i think in MoI.In any case she was always a genius destined for greatness,what we have seen in the books so far is a Tavore driven by her need to save the world,not one who had opportunities to be herself.

This post has been edited by Rupert: 27 September 2011 - 03:53 PM

[Kanese S's]

Or rather, to do what was right or whatever.


Also, Fiddler might not necessarily return immediately, I always read the epilogue as being years later. But I doubt he returns by himself. He's not drinking alone at Smiley's, after all.

[Asharak]

"I always read the epilogue as being years later."

The kid refered to him as an old man, but that could be just because kids think of anybody 30 years + as ancient. It seamed clear that Fiddler had bean there for a couple of years at least though.


I personally think Fiddler was supposed to be an "old" man in the epilouge, taking place 10 - 30 years later, but its certainly possible to interpret it differentley.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 28 September 2011 - 01:31 PM