[Abyss]

 Rupert, on 27 September 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

...
As for Grub and Bottle(he has to meet with Nether) i see them returning as conquerors after a clash between the Old empire and the New one.

Not really on either front. Bottle and Nether have unresolved sexual tension but that far from requires that they meet. Just because someone 'predicts' it doesn't mean it will happen.... in HoC Calm was absolutely sure she'd be there when Karsa acted up in the future, but Ublala put her down in TCG.

And Grub could easily end up working for Rel, or Rel's successor.

Quote

...Another is this in tCG:

"Even a man who has lived a life of sorrows will ask for one more day" from the Prayers of the Condemned,Kolanse Imperial Archives,Anonymous.

So we know for certain that Kolanse will be a sovereing empire,and along with my previous post it's almost certain that iw will be Tavore's empire.

Unless that quote pre-dates the FA conquest.

 Asharak, on 28 September 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

"I always read the epilogue as being years later."

The kid refered to him as an old man, but that could be just because kids think of anybody 30 years + as ancient. It seamed clear that Fiddler had bean there for a couple of years at least though.


I personally think Fiddler was supposed to be an "old" man in the epilouge, taking place 10 - 30 years later, but its certainly possible to interpret it differentley.

Fid seeming older than he really is is a running joke in the books, going all the way back to GotM. Throw in his talent with the Deck, Raraku (twice), the whole Bridgeburner's ascension thing, Beak, and the Bonehunter's belief in him and he's borderline for ascension, so likely to be around and spry even decades after TCG.

[Rupert]

 Abyss, on 28 September 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

 Rupert, on 27 September 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

...
As for Grub and Bottle(he has to meet with Nether) i see them returning as conquerors after a clash between the Old empire and the New one.

And Grub could easily end up working for Rel, or Rel's successor.

I can put nothing past SE but for the child of the chain of dogs to end up working for the traitor of Duiker and the soldiers of Aren,well i find it hard to imagine.Remember that Ganoes learned the history of the chain by Duiker himself and he will probably tell the BH when he learns of Blistig so Grub will know of Mallick Rel's involvement if he doesn't know already.

 Abyss, on 28 September 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Quote

...Another is this in tCG:

"Even a man who has lived a life of sorrows will ask for one more day" from the Prayers of the Condemned,Kolanse Imperial Archives,Anonymous.

So we know for certain that Kolanse will be a sovereing empire,and along with my previous post it's almost certain that iw will be Tavore's empire.

Unless that quote pre-dates the FA conquest.

I always forget how little we know about the world map so yes it's possible and there is also the fact that between empire and kingdom we have seen that it can be a difference in name only since Lether is much smaller than the Malazan empire.

That said Kolanse's map shows wery few settlements even counting those unnamed and given that the quote i posted is found in the last book i still lean on it referring to the future fo the series but that is just speculation ofc.


On topic i found out the casting of the quotes by Feather which in MT:

Quote

'The Empty Hold has become...... very crowded indeed. 'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!.'

'The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror. THe Mistresses dance with thwarted desire.'

'The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deadly embrace. The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward. The Saviours -'

"What is she saying? Seren Pedac demanded. "She has made them all plural - the players within the Hold of the Empty Throne - this makes no sense -'

- face one another, and both are doomed, and in broken reflection so stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all.'

'Contestants to the Empty Throne, Blood and madness.....'"

Is there anywhere an explanation for the events described here?Could this be referring to the events of tCG?

Watchers - Kolansii and ?

Mistresses - ? Olar Ethil and T'iam? No idea here.

Wanderers - Andii and Jaghut or Shake?

Walkers - BH and Snake?

Saviours - Tavore and Fiddler?

Betrayers - Perish and ?

Quote

'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!.'

This part sounds a lot like the events of tCG.If true,would that make the throne of Kolanse the throne of the First empire?.There is also this part in tCG in the first exchange between Ganoes and ST.

Quote

A crash from the courtyard below drew him round.The throne, a mass of flames, had broken through the mound beneath it. And the smoke leapt outward, like a beast unchained.

This post has been edited by Rupert: 28 September 2011 - 10:09 PM

[champ]

The group gathered at the end of tCG... Paran, QB etc

Heck they could go wherever they want... whenever they want!

edit

And how long is Rel likely to stay on the throne... especially with ST/Cots lil comment at the end!

This post has been edited by champ: 28 September 2011 - 10:04 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Rupert, on 28 September 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

On topic i found out the casting of the quotes by Feather which in MT:

Quote

'The Empty Hold has become...... very crowded indeed. 'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!.'

'The Watchers stand in place as if made of stone! Their faces are masks of horror. THe Mistresses dance with thwarted desire.'

'The Wanderers have broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deadly embrace. The Walkers cannot halt in the growing torrent that pulls them ever onward. The Saviours -'

"What is she saying? Seren Pedac demanded. "She has made them all plural - the players within the Hold of the Empty Throne - this makes no sense -'

- face one another, and both are doomed, and in broken reflection so stand the Betrayers, and this is what lies before us, before us all.'

'Contestants to the Empty Throne, Blood and madness.....'"

Is there anywhere an explanation for the events described here?Could this be referring to the events of tCG?

Watchers - Kolansii and ?

Mistresses - ? Olar Ethil and T'iam? No idea here.

Wanderers - Andii and Jaghut or Shake?

Walkers - BH and Snake?

Saviours - Tavore and Fiddler?

Betrayers - Perish and ?

Quote

'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!.'

This part sounds a lot like the events of tCG.If true,would that make the throne of Kolanse the throne of the First empire?.There is also this part in tCG in the first exchange between Ganoes and ST.

Quote

A crash from the courtyard below drew him round.The throne, a mass of flames, had broken through the mound beneath it. And the smoke leapt outward, like a beast unchained.

You know i've always wondered what this part was about. some of it does seem to fit the events of tCG. especially the walkers being the BH and the Snake. the betrayers being the perish works, and i think sinn could fit that as well. t'iam and olar ethil being the thwarted mistresses makes sense, and shit did the stone bitch get thwarted. and the watchers could be the rooted.

the wanderers seems to refer to the shake, and perhaps more specifically to twilight and yeddan derryg. if we wanna get metaphorical on this prophecy, which i think we do, twilight and her watch have broken through the ice by escaping the rising waters on the shore, the waters being from the melting jaghut ritual. then, they go into the darkness of gallan's road, which is reflected in allegory by the darkness of the embrace of the glacial waters.

tavore and fiddler don't feel right as the saviours - doom didn't really apply to them. a better fit i think would be stormy and gesler. they face each other; they're practically married, and both died, but did so in order to save the heart. not to mention they saved the che'malle.

Quote

'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!.'

you'll have to help me out with how this is indicating the throne of kolanse is the throne of the first empire. i admit that this:

Quote

A crash from the courtyard below drew him round. The throne, a mass of flames, had broken through the mound beneath it. And the smoke leapt outward, like a beast unchained.

hints toward a first empire/beast ritual connection, but it could also foreshadow the crippled god finally being free of his 'chains' aspect.

[Rupert]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 29 September 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:

the wanderers seems to refer to the shake, and perhaps more specifically to twilight and yeddan derryg. if we wanna get metaphorical on this prophecy, which i think we do, twilight and her watch have broken through the ice by escaping the rising waters on the shore, the waters being from the melting jaghut ritual. then, they go into the darkness of gallan's road, which is reflected in allegory by the darkness of the embrace of the glacial waters.

The melting ritual didn't think on that,it makes sense.

Quote

tavore and fiddler don't feel right as the saviours - doom didn't really apply to them. a better fit i think would be stormy and gesler. they face each other; they're practically married, and both died, but did so in order to save the heart. not to mention they saved the che'malle.

You're right (tho i have a crazy theory about Ganoes's involvement as been largely unforeseen,maybe even unwelcome by the other powers involved like the wolves who said to their followers that they wanted to even the scale for maximum carnage,but i'm not sure if they are to be believed,and in case he didn't arrive in time or hadn't made a bet with ST for Kalam and Quick,the BH would have died all so even Tavore and Fiddler.)

Quote

Quote

'Ware the brothers! Listen! Blood weaves a web that will trap the entire world! None shall escape, none shall find refuge!.'

you'll have to help me out with how this is indicating the throne of kolanse is the throne of the first empire.

I meant this line.

Quote

'Contestants to the Empty Throne, Blood and madness.....'"

This part of the casting is all related to the empty hold that is why i made the connection.

Quote

Quote

i admit that this:

Quote

A crash from the courtyard below drew him round. The throne, a mass of flames, had broken through the mound beneath it. And the smoke leapt outward, like a beast unchained.

hints toward a first empire/beast ritual connection, but it could also foreshadow the crippled god finally being free of his 'chains' aspect.

Yeah i was thinking more along the line that ST destroyed the throne to prevent others to sit on it but i guess Ganoes should have sensed its power if this was the case,it just felt like an event of some significance.

[Kanese S's]

I thought the Empty Throne referred to the Errant's various manipulations.

[Migol]

The thing is, you have a ton of Malazans in the Host at least who never parted ways with the empire, and a lot in -both- armies have friends and family (including wives/children) waiting for them in Malazan controlled territory. We already know Fiddler (and by extension Hedge), Grub, and Bottle are going to return. I'd lay money on Koryk not resting easy in Kolanse either, though making him part of the story seems unlikely. Hedge's "Beautiful Bridgeburner Babes" (BBBs) are probably gonna follow him.

Now, I'll put in a caveat, the only ones I expect to feature prominently beyond a "Well look who has a cameo in this chapter" are Ganoes Paran, Bottle, Quick Ben, possibly Kalam, and the Tiste Andii characters; I get a strong feeling that the bulk of the Bridgeburners/Bonehunters are "retired" at least as main characeters.

[Asharak]

"That said Kolanse's map shows wery few settlements even counting those unnamed and given that the quote i posted is found in the last book i still lean on it referring to the future fo the series but that is just speculation ofc"

But for all we know the settlements on the map are only the biggest citys, all those ruind citys on the map could be former captiols. Most of Kolanse had been destroyed by the Forkrull Assail, not just the people and the animals, but the land itself had been destroyed. I dont think the map gives a good impression of Kolanse before the Forkrull Assail arived.

[Kanese S's]

I agree with Asharak. Kolanse has been heavily depopulated and destroyed by the FA. They do so like being thorough. I would suspect that it was quite heavily populated and settled before they got there.

[D'iversify]

 Kanese S, on 29 September 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

I agree with Asharak. Kolanse has been heavily depopulated and destroyed by the FA. They do so like being thorough. I would suspect that it was quite heavily populated and settled before they got there.

Kolanse's being heavily populated previously is further suggested by the fact that it is at times implied that the famine that precedes its being subjugated by the Forkrul Assail was at least partially man-made. Famine-era Kolanse is what Lether will become if its wasteful agricultural tendencies and growing population continue, and its 'decadence' was a reason behind the Assail's choosing Kolanse as the place to start their work.