[Sanctume]

FA had that mass mind control magic--that's pretty bad ass but can't be "seen" quite as bad ass compared to other uber attributes.

[LordofTheFallen]

I agree that the FA seemed to downgrade throughout the series.
They apparently had the power at one point to almost destroy the K'Chain Che'Malle completely, one of the most badass races out there, and Calm takes down Karsa, making herself one of two people to ever do that (the second was the garrison captain with a lucky shot and a shovel on an already trapped and weakened Karsa.

And then they just start dropping like flies. I'll admit some circumstances, such as Hood or having your own god shoved down your throat were deaths that even the FA couldn't have survived, but the others, such as having a giant tarthenal somehow sneak up you with a mace shouldn't have happened. I mean his first shot wasn't fatal and the FA are know for there legendary toughness and speed.

Basically, in the book where the yet-unknown FA are the main enemies, the FA themselves probably should have put up more of a fight than the human armies they were forcing to fight.

[HoosierDaddy]

Karsa hadn't ascended yet, most likely. That whole first book of HoC is the beginning of his ascension with the rest taking place probably in TB. Karsa v. Calm now might play out quite differently.

Ublala was part Toblakai with a dragon mace (+1 damage) and is a nice fitting end for Calm considering the above and where she was imprisoned. Calm had also been fighting Mappo (not a lightweight by any stretch) for a while.

I don't mind how any of them died, some were simply far cooler than others.

[LordofTheFallen]

Karsa ascended? I know he became the unwilling knight of chains, but that doesn't automatically make him an ascendant does it?

And the point im stressing is that the final battle between the FA and the rest of the planet was really just a battle between mesmerized humans and the rest of the planet. With the exception of the short-lived brothers Grave, Aloft, and sister whats-her-face, not a single FA stepped into battle. The race that single-handedly left landfills of imass bones all over the Jhag Oden didn't even bother participating in their own conquest. They simply sat on the sidelines until someone showed up and killed them.

[HoosierDaddy]

Pretty safe bet Karsa's ascended. Not a god, but ascended.

They were rather instrumental in nearly destroying the world such that they could rebuild their numbers, though. With people all over the place, it didn't matter how bad-ass they were invidually as they'd always be outnumbered a million to one.

I get what you are saying, but it is a taste thing and I don't think they "stood on the sidelines" necessarily so much as moved the pawns around the chessboard. Much like Mallick Rel and Shadowthrone and Cotillion do. I also think they vastly underestimated the size and quality of the forces arrayed against them and overestimated the quality of their allies (or underestimated human's ability to build alliances that were more badass.)

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Kind of felt that they were built up / showed up too late in the cycle to make me really care about them as the "baddies". Took away from the final payoff of the series. I mean, how can you build up a nice hate for these guys when it´s like "Hello, I´m Sister Douchebag - FALL ON YOUR SWORD - err, I´m dead", you know...? In itself, nicely worked, but maybe an error in plot calculation by the chief.

This post has been edited by Spiridon_Deannis: 21 July 2011 - 04:46 AM

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

tiam, on 19 July 2011 - 11:26 AM, said:

They sort of fall foul of the main characters 'special moves' as someone put it a while back like Brys and Paran.

I've always felt the same (might've been me, even). They don't really present a credible threat on their own; by the time we were nearing the spire battle, I wasn't anticipating terrible FA-wreaked destruction, I was wondering when we would get rid of them all so the proper convergence would happen and we'd get a real sense of danger. That strikes me as a bit of a failure of dramatic tension. It just felt like whenever one of them showed up to fight, it was just an opportunity for whatever cool character was on the scene to use their special awesome powers to save the day. Even a scene where an FA mind controlled one of the more expendable armies/companies would have worked wonders for their credibility.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 21 July 2011 - 10:27 AM, said:

tiam, on 19 July 2011 - 11:26 AM, said:

They sort of fall foul of the main characters 'special moves' as someone put it a while back like Brys and Paran.

I've always felt the same (might've been me, even). They don't really present a credible threat on their own; by the time we were nearing the spire battle, I wasn't anticipating terrible FA-wreaked destruction, I was wondering when we would get rid of them all so the proper convergence would happen and we'd get a real sense of danger. That strikes me as a bit of a failure of dramatic tension. It just felt like whenever one of them showed up to fight, it was just an opportunity for whatever cool character was on the scene to use their special awesome powers to save the day. Even a scene where an FA mind controlled one of the more expendable armies/companies would have worked wonders for their credibility.

They did mindcontrol a part of the Grey helms...
But yeah, I get what you're saying.

[HedgeWalker]

LordofTheFallen, on 21 July 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

I agree that the FA seemed to downgrade throughout the series.
They apparently had the power at one point to almost destroy the K'Chain Che'Malle completely, one of the most badass races out there, and Calm takes down Karsa, making herself one of two people to ever do that (the second was the garrison captain with a lucky shot and a shovel on an already trapped and weakened Karsa.

PEDANT ALERT!

3 take down's; Urko schooled Karsa with a one-inch-punch...

On topic:

FA's are given plenty of nails'ard moments, and whilst they do seem to drop quite quickly, there is the combined might of multiple human/barghast armies, undead Jaghut, T'lann Imass, Undead BB's and a few gods to take them down and deal with the mayhem they have caused.
Looking at the cost of what it took to deal with them (individually, and the consequences of their actions) is a representation of their power.

This post has been edited by HedgeWalker: 21 July 2011 - 01:47 PM

[amphibian]

HedgeWalker, on 21 July 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

PEDANT ALERT!

3 take down's; Urko schooled Karsa with a one-inch-punch...

If you count the Malazan garrison capturing and re-capturing Karsa as "one" instead of "two", then there are five times when Karsa is pwnt.

Four: When Silgar re-captures Karsa after he leaves Keeper's tower.

Five: Mappo cold-cocks Karsa in the back of the head after Karsa knocks out Icarium.

Also, Urko gave him a good solid gut punch, not a Bruce Lee-style one inch punch.

[Abyss]

D, on 19 July 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:

...
There's 2 on Blind Gallan's road in DoD, too, but they seem like random encounters at the time, too.

Them too, tho we didn't even get names.

Tho i suppose it's worth noting the one the Watch encountered ahead of some Liosan reinforces the point that there was an alliance there.

LordofTheFallen, on 21 July 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

I agree that the FA seemed to downgrade throughout the series.
They apparently had the power at one point to almost destroy the K'Chain Che'Malle completely, one of the most badass races out there, ...

What are you referring to?

Quote

having a giant tarthenal somehow sneak up you with a mace shouldn't have happened. I mean his first shot wasn't fatal and the FA are know for there legendary toughness and speed.

Dragonbone weapons... nasty AND sneaky.

HoosierDaddy, on 21 July 2011 - 04:11 AM, said:

... Calm had also been fighting Mappo (not a lightweight by any stretch) for a while....

That too.

[Sanctume]

It was kinda cheese-ly implied that the FA's power would be uber when they successfully unveiled with sucking juice from TCG's heart.
But that plan was foiled.

So FA power in the area is mind control, long distance mind-video conference, and early warning someone using magic in our area?

[LordofTheFallen]

First to Abyss, the FA almost wiping out the KCCM thing im referring to is when they imprisoned/posessed their god and use him as a weapon, if you remember the last matron backed herself up to a chaos rent and opened it just before she died. I think that was what killed the god, but either way it stopped the FA dead in their tracks.

Quote

FA's are given plenty of nails'ard moments, and whilst they do seem to drop quite quickly, there is the combined might of multiple human/barghast armies, undead Jaghut, T'lann Imass, Undead BB's and a few gods to take them down and deal with the mayhem they have caused.
Looking at the cost of what it took to deal with them (individually, and the consequences of their actions) is a representation of their power.

Ok, I guess its kinda hard to take their deaths because until this book they were know exclusively for running up to people and punching their faces in. So even though in this book they are controling these vast armies (with some help from the watered hybrids) they lack the physical power that had defined them throught all the other books. Also, hood, ublala and the unbound were the only non-humans to kill an FA, and the unbound would have failed if it weren't for gall. So 7 out of 11 FA were killed by humans (though there are two deaths I can't remember, so I may be wrong.)

[Pust's Donkey]

Rhand, on 18 July 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

I've checked most of the topics until page 5 which seemed to cover FA-stuff, but I didn't read anything to solve this mystery for me.

If I remember correctly, FA used to be imprisoned beneath wards and big stones like Calm and that FA in Lether because they were too powerful to destroy. It has been a while since I read HoC but I think it was mentioned even Icarium couldn't kill Calm so he helped imprison her. Yet, at the end of tCG they fall like flies and the only ones who had difficulties facing them were the 6 TI from the CG.

Seems a bit inconsistent to me, or am I wrong?

I agree Rhand, I am just getting through DoD and glazed over some of the comments below to avoid too many spoilers, but I didn't see anything that explains how Forkful Assail can be imprisoned under a rock for millennia and survive, yet they drop like flies from walking through a wasteland:

"The race reappeared, chasing a column of children known as the Snake. The children referred to them as the "Quitters", which was a bastardisation of "inquisitors". They started out as a group of twelve: five women and seven men, but were whittled down to just four."


Plus Brayderal reflects when hiding from Badalle in Icarias that her kin were still out there [the wastelands] not likely to survive without food, water, and shelter.

[worry]

Dunno what you're doing in this forum, but if you're only on DoD then it's not surprising that's a sticking issue. TCG reveals something of a hierarchy among the FA which explains why that would happen.

[wullagaru]

amphibian, on 21 July 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

HedgeWalker, on 21 July 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

PEDANT ALERT!

3 take down's; Urko schooled Karsa with a one-inch-punch...

If you count the Malazan garrison capturing and re-capturing Karsa as "one" instead of "two", then there are five times when Karsa is pwnt.

Four: When Silgar re-captures Karsa after he leaves Keeper's tower.

Five: Mappo cold-cocks Karsa in the back of the head after Karsa knocks out Icarium.

Also, Urko gave him a good solid gut punch, not a Bruce Lee-style one inch punch.

Sorry to zombify this one, but you're also forgetting when Heboric stopped his sword cold and then threw him off screen.

[Rhand]

Finished rereading the series, and nearly 12 years later I still feel the same. There are a few who die as expected of beings who are "far more robust than humans, virtually un-killable through conventional means, healing from cuts and blows extremely quickly, possessing incredible strength, speed and agility". As shown, they could combat several powerful opponents such as Toblakai, Tiste Edur (meh powerful) and Kenryll'ah tyrants at once while sustaining only minor wounds. AS IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH, sorcerous attacks wash of them like water. Man, those are some bad asssssssss creatures.

We see some of them killed quite epicly, as befits their stature:
The Assails (Equity, Reverence) killed by Hood, biting of the face, lovely.
Diligence killed by Brys's torrent of names and Ve'gaths, very nice.
Aloft killed by Badalle, probably my favorite one.

But where I have problems with, are the following:

Serenity killed by Moranth munition, after getting hurt by Kalam. Weak sauce. Mainly the fight with Kalam was disappointing, as in Kalam too OP and Serenity underwhelming. Same for sister Belie, snuck upon by Kalam without noticing him either. And same with Grave. Okay. Friggin Kalam and QB killed 3 FA's. How much friggin fanservice can you put in 1 chapter...
Calm killed by Ublala Pung was so disgusting I almost threw my Kindle against the wall. Loudest wtf of the whole series. Calm senses Mappo arrive, has a 30 second chat with him and kills him in 20 seconds. But we're to believe she senses nor hears neither Ublala, a big half-blood Toblakai and some random Barghast-chick walking around in the exact same area. It's not as if Mappo and Calm fought for hours, or Ublabla used magic to appear out of a warren.
Freedom killed by Gall, who had his intestines hanging out of his body, being heavily wounded. Apparently an old man with his intestines hanging out, can still stand up and kill a FA without her hearing him at all.

It's annoying because they are clearly done for fan service (Kalam/QB and Ublala, although I don't know why anyone likes that simpleton) and the fights just don't follow the lore at all. They were described as lightning fast, healing incredibly quickly, being able to twist their limbs and torso in 20 million different directions to evade and counter attacks. We are introduced to FA as beings so powerful they couldn't be killed by arguably also extremely powerful beings (Icarium, T'lan Imass) but had to be imprisoned under wards for millennia.


It kills the mood to see them killed by pretty mundane actions. FA are no magical creatures, they ain't mages, so an otataral short knife really is just like a regular short knife as well. 1 killed by QB/Kalam, fair enough. But 3? Without them sustaining anyth serious wounds? Oh no, Kalam broke 2 ribs, got healed later, all good. Gall sticks a sword in the back of a FA and then a TI sticks a spear through her eye, DAMN, why did NOBODY think of that those thousands of years ago when Calm intervened in the TI-Jaghut wars on Genabackis and had to be imprisoned because they couldn't kill her? They didn't have spears and swords back then or what?
At least let people die when killing an FA. I don't think anyone with a name and importance even died from the FA, besides Gesler. Probably that stings the most. Too many happy faces at the end, not enough dead people considering what they went through and what they faced.


Ah well, rant done.

[Abyss]

Not all Forkrul Assail are equal.