[Silk]

Ok so finally Silk has finished this book..... and well I am not impressed.... I battled to get intoo this book unlike any of teh previous ones, nothign jumped out at me and said you can't go to sleep until you have finished this chapter/page/line.... unlike Sanderson, ICE, SE adn Feist where I battled to put the book down.

So much nonsense as filler in this book and reading the end where Martin goes on about how it was a B with and Itch to write I felt like writing back to him saying it was one of those to read as it made no sense in loads of parts.

Out the blue we have another Targaryen, the original cast that the story seemed to be about are now down to minimal and I must have missed an update on Rickon somewhere.

[Ceda Cicero]

Rhand, on 30 August 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

Fuck this. They killed my n. Jon man. What bullshit!


Completely ruined the book for me, that and the Tyrion/Daenerys-chapters beings so boring. I really don't care that much about Esos (or whatever the continent is called) so I hope in the next book they'll finally move.
Robb and Jon were my absolute favourite characters and now both are dead, okay...

Dude, scroll back through this thread and read some of the theories... Salt, smoke, and bleeding stars, mothafucka, turn that frown upside down!

EDIT: This is crazy, I keep getting e-mail notifications that Rhand responded to this message but then I come here and they're gone.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 31 August 2011 - 08:02 PM

[Paran]

Silk, on 30 August 2011 - 10:59 AM, said:

So much nonsense as filler in this book and reading the end where Martin goes on about how it was a B with and Itch to write I felt like writing back to him saying it was one of those to read as it made no sense in loads of parts.

Quoted for m-f'ing truth! I've been struggling to find a way to express my feelings on the book concisely, and you've just done it for me!

@ Rhand
Dude's a warg man! Remember the prologue chapter?? They wouldn't have included that chapter if not to show how a warg (like Jon) escapes death.

[Rhand]

This is crazy, my previous post dissapeared AGAIN. That's the 3rd time in a row. If a mod deleted it, it would be nice to get a notification at least.

@Ceda Cicero: I find that all too farfetched. I'm with Maester Aemon on that one.
@Paran: Even if he lives on in Ghost, he's still dead as a human. The stabbing should never have happened

[Paran]

Well, his "death" likely frees him from his vows as a crow, so he can go onto bigger things, gain warg experience, etc.
Mel can bring him back like Thoros brought Berric anc Cately back or Bran could bring him back like Bloodraven did to Coldhands, or he could be moved into the cells below the wall and be preserved there before full death and re-warg into his body at another time... so I'm pretty sure he'll be back... as a human... ish.

This post has been edited by Paran: 06 September 2011 - 07:25 AM

[Morgoth]

As a crow brought back to life by the fire of Melissandre fueled by the power of the wall he would fit very well into the whole of Ice and Fire thing.

[Paran]

yeah, remember his vision/dream of fighting with black ice armour and a flaming sword!?!

[acesn8s]

If Stannis really is dead (won't believe it until we see a body), I bet Mel needs to find a new Azor Ahai pretty damn quick. As other people have pointed out, all the signs point to Jon. Besides, who else is she going to pick, Wun Wun?

[Rhand]

Am I the only one who thinks Daenerys is Azor Ahai?

[Ceda Cicero]

Rhand, on 07 September 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks Daenerys is Azor Ahai?

Dany is almost certainly something, have to agree with you. Some speculate that the prophecies that presumably guided Rhaegar about there being a Prince Who was Promised point to Dany. You mentioned Maester Aemon earlier. His regarding Dany as the "chosen one" was aligned with the PWWP prophecies, not necessarily Azor Ahai (though one could make the argument that they are one in the same, just interpreted/shaped differently by different cultures.) So there are some who'd say it's possible that Dany=PWWP, while Jon=Azor Ahai. There's just way too much pointing at both of them for one to be a "chosen" and the other not, they both clearly have some sort of prophetic/mystical underpinning (though with GRRM all bets are off, and I wouldn't be surprised if the rug was pulled out from one or both, or if the prophecies are fulfilled in completely obscure and unforeseen ways, ala Jon's blink-and-you-miss-it smoke, salt, bleeding star motif at the end of DANCE.)

All that's to say, acknowledging that Jon is almost surely, at this point, on some kind of predestined path that is in one way or another tied to some prophecy in no way means you have to concede your conviction that Dany is on the same sort of path.

[Rhand]

I've never visited Westeros except to find out what the hell R+L=J meant, but why do so many people think Jon is Azor Ahai? Except for the very flimsy "smoke N salt"-argument.

[Ceda Cicero]

Rhand, on 07 September 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

I've never visited Westeros except to find out what the hell R+L=J meant, but why do so many people think Jon is Azor Ahai? Except for the very flimsy "smoke N salt"-argument.

I think a lot of it has to do with the R+L=J possibility. If it's the case, Jon is the only living character with Stark and Targaryen blood (that we know of so far) which resonates strongly with the Ice and Fire theme and would seem to inevitably tie him into a role of great significance.

I also don't think that the smoke n'salt argument is all that flimsy, especially since it cropped up in true GRRM fashion at the end of DANCE (obscurely, abruptly, and unexpectedly) and has been a consistent and very significant trope relating to Azor Ahai since book 2.

Also to consider are the bits in DANCE when Mel keeps looking for AA in her fires and keeps seeing Jon, when she herself very dumbly says verbatim, "I ask for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and R'hllor sees fit to show me only Snow."

[Werthead]

Rhand, on 07 September 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

I've never visited Westeros except to find out what the hell R+L=J meant, but why do so many people think Jon is Azor Ahai? Except for the very flimsy "smoke N salt"-argument.

As Ceda says, Melisandre is apparently told by her flames that Jon is AA, but completely misses it. We then have Jon dying with his 'smoking wounds' and the salt from Marsh's tears whilst in the background Ser Patrek is rather bloodily killed with his blood running down over his house sigil, that of a star (the bleeding star part of the prophecy). You also have the presence (though not immediately there, but nearby) of Shireen, a dragon (she is the great-granddaughter of a Targaryen king) clad in stone (the greyscale).

Arguably the circumstances of the prophecy being fulfilled fit Jon slightly better than they do Daenerys (though the dragons-from-stone thing is much more obvious for her, and the red comet is a more blatant 'bleeding star'), though it's debatable. In fact, I suspect there will be dramatic tension in the last two (cough) books as we have to decide which between Dany and Jon is the true 'chosen one'.

[Kelewon]

I had a couple thoughts on Jon:
I reread the book a short time ago and realized that Mel had a dream where Jon turned into wolf and then back into a man. I think he'll probably have the baptism fire, but be in better shape then Beric since his mind is stored in Ghost. Also I didn't pick up the first time that Victarions wounds are still smoking days after he's "healed" by the red priest he has with him. I have a sneaking suspicion that to stay alive after the healing you need to have a red priest with you or you die. Thoros was close to Beric after all of his resurrections (I think).

I'm curious what would happen if Jon took his sword and stabbed Daenarys like AA did. We keep getting references where Dragons are like fire, Daenarys is the blood of dragon. Beric used blood to light his sword on fire with blood, would Targaryen blood make a more powerful/permanent flame?

[lord of tragedy]

the worst martin book I ever read. utter shite. terrible pacing. hizdar who? the reek passages were nauseating, in a bad way. written with the utmost contempt possible for his fans. what a wanker. fat useless c**t.
i will never buy a book of his again.

[Ceda Cicero]

lord of tragedy, on 17 October 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

the worst martin book I ever read. utter shite. terrible pacing. hizdar who? the reek passages were nauseating, in a bad way. written with the utmost contempt possible for his fans. what a wanker. fat useless c**t.
i will never buy a book of his again.

[McLovin]

OK, I'm finally checking into this thread.

About 600 pages into the book so far.

First thing off, I just can't help but feel that this book just throws the weakness of AFFC into sharper relief. We've yet to see all of the master plan, but AFFC feels almost disposable compared to this book. While with ADWD, every chapter is another reveal leading up to...dunno what yet.

Two minor gripes. GRRM WAY overuses the phrases "much and more" and "little and less". I'm also a bit tired of the not-using-names-as-chapter-titles. You set the precedent, GRRM, I didn't, so the least you could do is stick with it.

VERY interesting developments here..."Young Griff" felt a bit tacked-on at first, but the decision to "go west, young man" felt natural, like what a headstrong young prince would decide. Again the masterful talent of GRRM shows through here. The characters drive the plot, which the makes the whole thing come alive.

Really liked how the Theon chapters have been handled. Ramsay Snow feels a bit too much like caricature, which is disappointing coming from GRRM, but Theon's POV has been fascinating nevertheless.

Also a good surprise has been the Bran chapters. That storyline has just been a long slog, and it's nice to finally see it get somewhere.

All in all, great stuff so far. Not quite ASOS level, but a phenomenal effort that - dare I say it - may actually have been worth the six year wait.

I'll check back with you at the climax...

McLovin, enjoyed the Monty Python reference too..

[McLovin]

I finished the book and it's taken some time to get my thoughts in order.

Overall, I liked it. I was unpleasantly surprised by

Spoiler

Jon's murder at the hands of his fellow crows, but it did feel like a real reaction to the radical changes he was trying to make. However, given that his last thought was about Ghost, I'm assuming he warg'd out upon death and so we'll kinda-sorta see him again, as Ghost (kinda ironic that). Or he could be brought back Beric-style since Melisandre is there, but I doubt that.

I can't help but feel the Daenerys storyline could move along faster. As soon as Drogon killed that girl, her #1 priority should have been getting the dragons under control. And I guess there's the valid point she was distracted by war within and without Meereen, but it seemed like she could have done more.

I was a little disappointed at the ending. I thought the book would end with

Spoiler

Stannis attacking Winterfell

, but we never got there. I guess that's next book.

I think I would place the series in this order, from most to least favorite:

ASOS
ACOK
ADWD
AGOT
AFFC

[Rhand]

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2011 - 06:18 PM, said:

HAHAHA! This meme seriously does NOT get old.

LOL

Hitler learns about Jon Snow's fate.

Sorry for the bump, but can someone reupload this if he saved it by any chance?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I read ADWD without doing a re-read since reading AFFC, which I think was a mistake. I'll reserve judgement until I pluck the courage up to re-read the whole series (although ADWD bored me so much I've been putting this off, and I have a pile of other things to read once I finish re-reading TCG) - but on first impression I found it very dull, and somewhat messy in places - someone's already mentioned above the overuse of certain phrases. I got to the point where I thought if I saw "words are wind" one more time I might go on a murderous rampage.

He's always repeated some sort of key phrase in each book, and I've no issue with that. There's a point where it becomes too much though.

For me, Dany's arc undid a lot of her character development in the previous books and really didn't seem to fulfill anything except

Spoiler

her finally riding Drogon and meeting up with the Dothraki again

but that really didn't make up for the hundreds of pages of naff all happening.

Jon's arc saved the book for me and as above

Spoiler

I doubt very much we've seen the end of him. Martin's not the most subtle user of Chekhov's Gun, and he told us the prologue about warging for a reason.

My personal feeling is that the decision to split geographically and this matter of the rejection of the five year gap are starting to really weaken the books - they peaked at ASOS and I loved the first three, AFFC and ADWD served only to try my patience. I want to know the ending for my love of the first three and I live in hope that TWOW will be a marked improvement. I could really have done without another love-hate series like The Wheel of Time where I persevere just to learn the ending.

Ah well, at least the new season of the TV show starts again tomorrow