[Path-Shaper]

Vengeance, on 14 July 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 12 July 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

Meng Huo will randomly incite one player to rebel at the beginning of the game (this player remains their current role and also is Meng Huo). That player will designate a successor. When the Meng Huo player is eliminated, the successor will become the new rebel and Meng Huo and will designate their own successor. And so on, until one faction wins.

My reading comprehension sucks. I read this as first there being 1 Meng Huo and a successor who will only become Meng Huo should Meng Huo is killed. Now I think there are 2 Meng Huos in the game right now and will always be 2 Meng Huos with a third player designated as a successor who is still town until he becomes a rebel and Meng Huo.

Your reading skills still suck. Even after all of these years. What that says is that Meng Huo was randomly choosen after all other alts had been passed out. This set up isn't complacated, something similar has been ran before. I just must be the only one who has seen it done.

I shall spell it out for you.

Roles given at the start of the game usually using a random generater to match up. After Drek gives the roles out then she puts all of the names except for the players who drew the finders into another generater and the lucky one that comes out is the first MH. What that means is that the player recieved two messages. The first one saying that he was such and such role and then recieved a second later on saying that he had been incited to rebel and was MH.
Now that player decides who he wants to be his successor in the probable event that he is found and either lynched or killed. His successor does not know that he will be the new MH. They would only be informed that they are now the HM when the previous MH had passed away.

We know that there are other rebel lords who are rebelling who are not MH because the OP said so at the beginning. All of this drivel about there being possibly two MH at the same time is drivel and probably propigated by one of the symps.


As such

VOTE TWELVE

^^ Very nice Vengy, pretty much nailed it

[Path-Shaper]

Vengeance, on 14 July 2011 - 08:04 PM, said:

If the game is anything other then what I have laid out I will be very very surprised. Not sorry about yelling at people...They deserved it. Just surprised.

Right or wrong, you guys are having lots of useful conversation, which is all I could ever ask

Kurt Montandon, on 14 July 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:

What happens if I pick my master as my successor? I think there's a problem there ... unless you just bump down to the next one on my list.

Playing as a symp without knowing at least who my starting master is will be tricky.

You have no master. You are Yong Kai, with Meng Huo in your camp. If you die, Yong Kai and his army will be defeated and Meng Huo will go to the first eligible player on your list, incite them to rebel and hang out in their camp. And so on.

Kurt Montandon, on 14 July 2011 - 08:06 PM, said:

Also, I can't believe that the town will actually lynch anyone in the first few Days. It's insane - all they have to do is keep voting Night, and let the FKs work their way through the list of players repeatedly. It would be boring and time consuming ... but it would work. There's absolutely no reason to lynch anyone yet. Not that I'm going to point that out in-thread, of course.

On the other hand, bringing it up would make you seem extremely town-supportive...

Gust Hubb, on 14 July 2011 - 08:28 PM, said:

Hey P-S, are we interpreting the OP correctly? Can MH only recruit 1 person a day and at max have only 1 recruit at a time? And can he switch recruits at will? And do the recruits know they are recruits? I don't think you will answer all of these questions, but I really want to double check on those things that involve misinterpretation of your wording (cult vs. non-cult game). Thanks!!!

All the necessary information is in the OP, but can evidently be interpreted in many ways.

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Okay, If I'm right about game mechanics then there is no way that scum can win if the generals don't use all of their kills.

Here is how I think roles work.

the Generals have a combined 3 kills but unlimited finds until there has been 3 kills.
Find kills work on both the original Meng Huo and the rebel Meng Huo but not on the successor.
The successor doesn't know who he is until after a Meng Huo dies not just the Meng Huo who selects him as successor.

The only way for scum to win is if they can select the finders or the other Meng Huo rebel as their recuit and upon their death there is no new Meng huo. If there is no Meng Huo then there is nobody to kill off. Scum wins by default.

I've ran through multiple senarios even factoring in the first two Meng Huos forcing the finders to use two of their three kills to prove they are the real finders and even lynching wrong 4 straight times its an almost 100% odds that it gives a win for Town.

I must have something wrong. It can't be that easy. Especially since the finders are not revealing who they are.

You think getting town to agree on things counts as easy???!!!

Tattersail, on 14 July 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

Find Mentalist

It looks like we are voting off twelve, i want to be less suspicious about mentalist if possible.

Duly noted!

[Path-Shaper]

Roldom, on 14 July 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

vengence and khellendros seem very clicky to me at the moment...

Shinrei, on 14 July 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

This is the best game ever.

Forgettable chinese names and war elephants can't go wrong!

Kurt Montandon, on 14 July 2011 - 10:33 PM, said:

Ah, OK, I was completely mis-reading the mechanics.

So there's no-one playing the Role of Meng Huo? The wording of both the OP and my Role PM sort of make it seem as though there's a player in that Role in the game.

There's a bunch of ways of seeing it. You could say that you are Meng Huo, but when you, Kurt, die, the role transfers to someone else and then they are playing the role Meng Huo. Or, you could see Meng Huo as a non-player who incites the rebels, except that the rebel gets to tell Meng Huo who to incite next, that sorta thing.

I think the OP was clear enough, and really no matter what I said there people will always interpret it in a dozen different ways. Your rebel PM could probably have been written a bit more clearly I guess.

twelve, on 14 July 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

Actually no. And now I'm sure there is only one MH. I ran the senerios for a single MH in the game and now I'm convinced that it's 1 MH no symp. Town has to vote for night to have a chance to win otherwise I hope I'm the first one voted out.

[Path-Shaper]

Kurt Montandon, on 15 July 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

Got it.

Guess it's time to start Symping the hell out of Venge, then, so that if get FK'd I'll take him out with me.

ansible, on 15 July 2011 - 03:03 AM, said:

Provisional:

Find Venge

This whole time I've been thinking it's more important to save the finds until later game when the odds of hitting MH are higher, but the truth is I think this makes sense, because right now my guess is that Venge is the other general. If he is really MH right now...I want him dead. Obviously a lynch can't be risked but since no RI's have "become" MH yet, I need to know if everything he's been saying is bullshit or not. Since last night the other finder either missed or held back like I did, even if we both get extremely lucky tonight I trust he will also save the last finder-kill until late game, both to keep us from being designated and so we can use it to get the advantage back if things go badly.

If he's inno then I lose nothing, and if he dies, then I still benefit from learning how stupid I was to think he was the other general.

Noted.

[Path-Shaper]

Shinrei, on 15 July 2011 - 01:25 AM, said:

I wish to caste imperious gazes upon all my subjects, as well as shake my fist at any passing monkeys.

Do I have mustaches I can twirl?

answering scene (on-thread):

Path-Shaper, on 15 July 2011 - 04:20 AM, said:

Deep in the jungles of Eight Fan, rumours ran wild of Yan armies headed southward to root out Meng Huo. In the Nanman bastion of Tulong Cave, the populace assembled around an ancient tree stump. The stump was twenty spans tall without any sign of a branch ever having extended from it. Legend told that the tree had been cut down to a single span by the famed Nanman warrior Tuhuang and his great blade Wind Tortoise centuries ago but the stump had continued to grow defiantly while the sword eventually rusted and was thrown away. Atop this stump sat the king of Tulong Cave, King Duosi. The assembled populace shouted up to their king asking if he would follow Meng Huo in rebellion or accept Yan rule.

Duosi, a wizened mystic known for his roundabout explanations and love of hallucinogenic mushrooms, cast an imperious gaze over all his subjects, shook his fist at some passing monkeys and said: "The soldiers of the Yan dynasty are accustomed to their plains, fields, mountains, rivers, deserts, crags, mountains, valleys, plains, seas... what? Yes yes, they have things that are sparse! With plants, yes yes yes. We are men and women of the jungle! Especially the women, look how hairy they are! The Yan women aren't hairy at all. Do you think they'd give me one if I surrendered? Oh don't tell my wife that- where was I? Oh yes. They have smooth jungles and we have hairy seas but look I have no moustachios to twirl now do I my people?!" The crowd was confused. With a mighty intake of breath King Duosi roared at the passing monkeys and suddenly a great moustachio grew out of his face in a heartbeat. "And that is that!" he said, then retired.

[Path-Shaper]

Tattersail, on 15 July 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

I changed my avatar in my settings to suit the game but it hasn't changed, do i have to wait for approval?

Do a hard reset/refresh -> Ctrl + f5

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 15 July 2011 - 04:15 PM

[Path-Shaper]

ansible, on 15 July 2011 - 06:02 PM, said:

Order of operations question: If MH is lynched, and I or the other general (unknowingly) target the designated successor for a find on the same night, does the successor become MH before the find and therefore also dies? Or does the find fail because he isn't MH yet but will become MH at the beginning of the next day?

All actions related to Meng Huo dying, such as successor promotion and that stuff happens immediately upon his death (which if he died from a lynch would still be "at the end of Day", then Night would occur with your find), so a find could kill the successor the night immediately after.

[Path-Shaper]

Khellendros, on 15 July 2011 - 11:28 PM, said:

I was just going through the thread trying to decide who to compose a case on (torn between Kurt, HO, or Roldom, probably all wrong), when I noticed that Tattersail, our erstwhile finder, speculated earlier on the identities of the Yang generals (i.e. the finders), and highlighted the names of two in the OP whom he felt encompassed these roles. So I've asked him on thread what name he was given by yourself, and, if he says a name other than one of the two which he highlighted, then that would be mighty suspicious to me.

But I'm probably barking up the wrong tree as usual.

Khellendros, on 15 July 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

Had a look through all of Tattersail's posts, and he talks about almost nothing but finders and finding and their powers and whether they should reveal and how many should reveal....I think this pretty much proves he is a finder in truth, one who's obsessed with his own role

And pardon, I believe I called them Yang dynasty generals rather than Yan.

The Yang dynasty will be so pissed that you associated them together. Tsk tsk.

ansible, on 16 July 2011 - 02:20 AM, said:

Provisional:

Find Tattersail

Noted

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

Find Hidden One

Noted

Khellendros, on 16 July 2011 - 02:00 PM, said:

They want to do finds on people they don't find suspicious. This truly is a novel Mafia game.

Am I missing something here, or am I wandering round in crazyland?

Well, it being mafia, there is always a fair amount of crazy involved...

[Path-Shaper]

As Khell has pointed out aplenty, the town gains the most from finding almost everyone except Meng Huo but then lynching the last couple subjects, hopefully getting MH first. That way they don't actually lose a finder-kill but have a fair chance of not lynching wrong too many times. If they pull it off, they'll have enough people alive at the end with some kills still remaining so the finders are CI.

I don't think the finders are consciously following that plan, but they're on the right track for it so far anyways.

[Path-Shaper]

ansible, on 16 July 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

Amendment:

Find Grief, if he's lynched, Find Tattersail

I think tatts just fucked up by pointing out the names early on...from what he posted it looks just like what I got, and he has a tendency to be honest when he reveals (I'm thinking the BC game here). The only crazy possibility is if he somehow is a symp who got some info about the finders, and the other general is sitting out there like me thinking that tatts is his partner. So only two reveals would alert the other general that something was wrong. I'm probably over thinking that though.

Noted

Khellendros, on 16 July 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 16 July 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 16 July 2011 - 02:00 PM, said:

They want to do finds on people they don't find suspicious. This truly is a novel Mafia game.

Am I missing something here, or am I wandering round in crazyland?

Well, it being mafia, there is always a fair amount of crazy involved...

True true, I suppose I am enjoying my return to Mafia, I'm just a little frustrated it hasn't progressed all that quickly at the moment. And it's not like we're being cautios and deliberative, there's just too much bickering going on at present.

We've got twelve, Gust, and Roldom being vocal on one side, and ansible, Grief, and myself shouting right back on the other. Then we've got others who don't speak up at all in HO, Shinrei, and Kurt. I'm sure Venge would be shouting but he appears to have gone AWOL. And I wonder if I've made a big mistake by pointing the finger at Tattersail - it's not like we need more confusion.

I think Gust is a confused inno, but I've begun to wonder about Roldom - he always seems to pop in and stir the cauldron and then pop out again. Him, HO, and Shinrei are my favourites for MH at the moment. If I choose to stop believed Tattersail, then he and Ment also go on the list. As you can see, the problem is it's a long list. I think in the end I'll put down a vote on one of the quiet people, say it's no big loss if we lynch them as they're not contributing anyway, and push hard on that.

[Path-Shaper]

Kurt Montandon, on 18 July 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

Actually, town's gotten smart. It really would be the best strategy to hold on to FKs until later in the game, when they can be more carefully targeted than lynches.

I'd actually prefer if town didn't lynch, but they're catching on that it's a good idea to do so based on the numbers game. Although really, no matter what happens, it's going to be a wifom cluster-fuck at the end-game no matter what, far more than usual. I really hope someone wastes a Find on me tonight, to chip away at their three - I need to act just scummy enough to get Found, but not enough to get lynched ... tricky.

I really missed an opportunity - I should've fake revealed as a Finder earlier, so that when I got FK'd by the other Finder, it totally wifomed the entire town. Damn. I mean, I definitely know who's Inno (everyone but me).

[Path-Shaper]

twelve, on 18 July 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

I'm so bleeding frustrated right now. This game isn't rocket science. Even if there is a symp who will become MH then a failed find on them isn't the end of the world. It just clears them of being MH right now but it saves a kill. What is so bad about that? We need a lynch but why force one when you don't have to.

MH doesn't have a kill so voting night doesn't put town farther behind scum it actually puts them ahead of them. If they accidentally hit MH big deal. You still have another find while also keeping yourself from being able to be recruited. It's when they use that second kill when the town is getting vunerable.

It's boring!!! It's not how mafia is play!!!! BOO HOO!!!!!! To me this could actually speed up the game. Since we have to start over after every kill this game could take forever the way it's going. Vote night to eliminate people from being scum through finds until the probability of hitting MH is greater than hitting town with a find then start to put pressure on the remaining players and start to lynch them. I still think the balance favors scum still even narrowing down the suspect pool before lynches.

If Shin happens to be Meng Huo I'm going to look like an idiot but I still stand by my strategy. I would much rather get rid of ansible or Khell at this point or maybe even Vengy

[Path-Shaper]

Day 4 and no lynch... I'm kinda regretting not giving Meng Huo a kill, now...

Oh well, with Vengeance, Grief, GH, Ment and HO found, and the two finders can reveal and VPI, they could narrow the suspect pool to 5 today, which imho is good enough that they should take the risk and lynch to try and avoid losing a FK. We'll see, though.

[Path-Shaper]

Khellendros, on 18 July 2011 - 11:22 PM, said:

When I was playing Mafia regularly many moons ago, I remember Grief used to spam the thread with posts like there was no tomorrow, and consistently had about twice as many posts as the next highest poster at the end of the game. Not so this time. Cool, calm, sensible, intelligent posts. Has he mellowed out, or is this how he plays when he's EVIL SCUM?!

I suppose you could go read other games from while you've been gone to find out, but I'm assuming you're too lazy for that, right?

[Path-Shaper]

Shinrei, on 19 July 2011 - 01:29 AM, said:

I want to pee on people from the vantage point of my elephant. Aim for Gust Hubb.

If you get lynched I'll be sure to work it into the scene

Tattersail, on 19 July 2011 - 08:10 AM, said:

Find Vengey if lynched Find Khell

Noted

Khellendros, on 19 July 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 19 July 2011 - 01:23 AM, said:

Khellendros, on 18 July 2011 - 11:22 PM, said:

When I was playing Mafia regularly many moons ago, I remember Grief used to spam the thread with posts like there was no tomorrow, and consistently had about twice as many posts as the next highest poster at the end of the game. Not so this time. Cool, calm, sensible, intelligent posts. Has he mellowed out, or is this how he plays when he's EVIL SCUM?!

I suppose you could go read other games from while you've been gone to find out, but I'm assuming you're too lazy for that, right?

The issue isn't laziness, the issue is preserving my sanity

twelve, on 19 July 2011 - 02:40 PM, said:

I'm thankful that they will finally get around to lynch me. Nothing but a bunch of idiots. The only regret is that MH is going to win and I'm going to lose because people are too stupid to realize they have to lynch him 3 times to win the game. That is no more than 1 2/3 rds failed lynches per correct lynch. How are you going to do that with a sample size of 12 fucking people? I've seen games where there were 2-3 scum in the whole game where it took 5 lynches before they killed even 1. They can't be afraid to accidentally hit MH with a find to help narrow the lynch pool.

Idoits, idiots, idiots.

twelve, on 19 July 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

Before you spoiler me I think that there is a good chance that Meng Huo is either ansible, Grief or Khell. They were my biggest haters and I think the real MH would see the validitly of what I was trying to convince everyone else of and tried to get me gone. The rest were just being idiots. I wouldn't be surprised if Vengeance or Kurt is MH either.

I think Roldom is the possible other finder as well.

My prediction. Meng Huo in a landslide victory.

Well, come see in SH - password is yyz

[Path-Shaper]

ansible missed getting in a provisional for his find-kill... not good play but might be beneficial for town at this point since this the lynch pool is now down to 3 or so.

[twelve]

ansible!?!?

ansible!?!?

ansible is the finder!?!?

Town is doomed. He was one of my biggest haters.

[twelve]

Path-Shaper, on 16 July 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

As Khell has pointed out aplenty, the town gains the most from finding almost everyone except Meng Huo but then lynching the last couple subjects, hopefully getting MH first. That way they don't actually lose a finder-kill but have a fair chance of not lynching wrong too many times. If they pull it off, they'll have enough people alive at the end with some kills still remaining so the finders are CI.

I don't think the finders are consciously following that plan, but they're on the right track for it so far anyways.

......... Don't know how I should take this? But whoever gets credit, this strategy has been what I've been pushing and ansible was all up in my face saying it's a horrible stategy. I worry for town with one of their own finders not willing to share their info with the rest of the group.

[twelve]

Path-Shaper, on 18 July 2011 - 01:57 AM, said:

Kurt Montandon, on 18 July 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

Actually, town's gotten smart. It really would be the best strategy to hold on to FKs until later in the game, when they can be more carefully targeted than lynches.

I'd actually prefer if town didn't lynch, but they're catching on that it's a good idea to do so based on the numbers game. Although really, no matter what happens, it's going to be a wifom cluster-fuck at the end-game no matter what, far more than usual. I really hope someone wastes a Find on me tonight, to chip away at their three - I need to act just scummy enough to get Found, but not enough to get lynched ... tricky.

I really missed an opportunity - I should've fake revealed as a Finder earlier, so that when I got FK'd by the other Finder, it totally wifomed the entire town. Damn. I mean, I definitely know who's Inno (everyone but me).

This was my biggest concern as town that the FK would have to use their first kill just to straighten out who was the true finders. But after that it was two players in the clear and everyone else who would be suspect. That would be the case if ansible would just reveal. Ha I was right. There is no symp.

[twelve]

Path-Shaper, on 19 July 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

ansible missed getting in a provisional for his find-kill... not good play but might be beneficial for town at this point since this the lynch pool is now down to 3 or so.

And since Ansible isn't revealing who he is Tat is wasting a find on someone that was already cleared.

Edit:

How do you say that the lynch pool is down to 3? From your perspective or town's?

This post has been edited by twelve: 19 July 2011 - 04:33 PM