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Half of Americans Getting Government Aid Swear They've Never Used It

#61 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 08:35 AM

View PostShinrei, on 28 July 2011 - 03:45 AM, said:

View Poststone monkey, on 27 July 2011 - 11:04 PM, said:


The interesting, and eye-opening, conclusion we then reach is that 40% of the total US tax take is paid by the people who have only 10% of the wealth... And yet the wealthiest 10% (who have 90% of the total wealth but only pay 60% of the taxes) have still managed to convince the US public that their tax burden is too high.[/size][/font]


Those who pay 60% of the taxes receive benefits in the form of infrastructure spending etc., but are for the most part funding large portions of programs they will never use nor benefit from. So what is fair? Charity is wonderful, and I do not take issue with the rich paying a higher portion in taxes, to a point. But how much is enough? I would argue that those calling for higher taxes on the rich cannot be satisfied.


1. The job providers profit at least as much from infrastructure spending as they are depending on people reaching their job in an efficient way. The same for healthcare. 2.5% reduction in sick leave thanks to better healthcare plans can boost the enterprise's income, ceteris paribus.

2. There is a point where you have more income from the returns of your hard-earned capital than you can spend on food, insurance, healthcare, pension funds, clothing, education, accomodations, transport and luxury (and I'm willing to let alimentation, drugs, prostitutes, jewelry, parties, serving personell, lawyers and accountants fall in this category) for the foreseeable future.
And that's what is going for the top layer of this 10% of the people - i would not be surprised if the division of this wealth bracket showed that there is a small elite of 0.00000003% of the population or so owning 30% of the total wealth. Taxing them more might be small fries compared to taxing the entire 10% top income more heavily, but to these taxed, well, they would not notice the difference in any way.

If you belong to that bracket and your every whim and requirement can be fulfilled, why would you or anyone else care if you are taxed for a stupidly high percentage on your excess income, no matter where it comes from? You're not going to do anything with that excess money anyway. At some point, you simply have enough.

Sure, you may donate a lot of your excess money to charity, and perhaps a great many people do. You may auction your fifth villa in Malibu with swimming pool and yaught dock + yaught for a gazillion to a fellow billionaire for a week to support the poor in San Francisco with that same amount of money.

But instead of that, the government can use it to promote general public safety, economic stimulation and reducing national/ government debt, which will in turn lead to tax cuts as the government needs less money to cover all its bases and run a balanced budget.
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#62 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:58 AM

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But instead of that, the government can use it to promote general public safety, economic stimulation and reducing national/ government debt, which will in turn lead to tax cuts as the government needs less money to cover all its bases and run a balanced budget.



I would say that the government has had the money/opportunity to do what you say right here, but have failed to budget and spend wisely. It should not have become necessary to raise taxes on anyone. This is why so many people, myself included, balk at the idea of giving them more to fritter away. If families ran their books like the US government, they'd be living in a cardboard box or in jail.

You know me, my argument always floats back to government waste and misguided spending. Taxing the rich is a bandaid on a gaping wound.
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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:21 AM

View PostShinrei, on 28 July 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Quote

But instead of that, the government can use it to promote general public safety, economic stimulation and reducing national/ government debt, which will in turn lead to tax cuts as the government needs less money to cover all its bases and run a balanced budget.



I would say that the government has had the money/opportunity to do what you say right here, but have failed to budget and spend wisely. It should not have become necessary to raise taxes on anyone. This is why so many people, myself included, balk at the idea of giving them more to fritter away. If families ran their books like the US government, they'd be living in a cardboard box or in jail.

You know me, my argument always floats back to government waste and misguided spending. Taxing the rich is a bandaid on a gaping wound.

Yes, but the wound has to be dressed or you're heading for amputation, to continue the analogy. The money has to be raised somewhere, somehow. Nationalisation is going to be equally balked at.
Anyway, I can also point at countries with much higher tax percentages and lower govt. debts per capita to prove that more money to govt =/= unwise spending.
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#64 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:32 PM

Other countries situations are not easily applicable to the USA. We do everything bigger, including our problems ;)
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#65 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:26 PM

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If you belong to that bracket and your every whim and requirement can be fulfilled, why would you or anyone else care if you are taxed for a stupidly high percentage on your excess income, no matter where it comes from? You're not going to do anything with that excess money anyway. At some point, you simply have enough.


But isn't that at the core of the issue? That the wealthy will never get enough? Some rich people like Bill Gates is the exception, but greed seems to be an all-consuming mentality, especially once you move up the social ladder. From what I've seen (and yes, I do not have any empirical evidence to support the validity of this claim), money is the center of a lot of rich families.

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#66 User is offline   RaRugged 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:47 PM

Greed is such a trite word. What are we, if not seeking self-profit?
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#67 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 05:24 PM

View PostRaRugged, on 28 July 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Greed is such a trite word. What are we, if not seeking self-profit?


I should hope that there's a little more to us than that.
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#68 User is offline   Daemonwolf 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 05:39 PM

View PostHiddenOne, on 28 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostRaRugged, on 28 July 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Greed is such a trite word. What are we, if not seeking self-profit?


I should hope that there's a little more to us than that.


How about betterment? We are all seeking betterment to our lives. That betterment depends on your own personal and societal relationships to determine what exactly would make your life better. Most people in capitalist societies fall into the pitfall early in life that having more money will make their life better.

Say your a minimum-wage burger flipper at McDonald's, youve now got a pay-check and can go do more things without looking to mom n dad for money. Except you realize eventually that the minimum wage isn't letting you do as much as you like, so you look for a better paying job, you get it and are happy with your new paycheck for a time, till you decide there's more you'd like to do, and this new check isn't working out anymore, so you go for a better paying position or job, and you continue that trend until your satisfied, or cant seem to go any further.

Some people get where they want to be early, some get where they want to be later, some never get where they want to be. The whole thing is driven by how each individual perceives the question of "what would make my life better?"
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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:58 PM

View PostHiddenOne, on 28 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

View PostRaRugged, on 28 July 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Greed is such a trite word. What are we, if not seeking self-profit?


I should hope that there's a little more to us than that.


Hoping is going to get you nowhere. You should be out there getting yours because if you don't do it, somebody else will. And if you have to crawl over the corpse of your fellow man to do so, I say kick them while their down because fuck them for slowing you down to a crawl in the first place.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#70 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:08 PM

The problems with our government have little to do with actual progressivism. Lobbyists are a problem. Fickle, impatient voters who go back and forth between the parties every election cycle are a problem. Inefficiency is indeed a huge a problem (but not a partisan issue no matter how often Fox News correspondents are directed via memo by Roger Ailes to say it is). So's corruption, and money = free speech is perhaps going to be the nail in the coffin. You know the old saying: conservatives run on the platform that government doesn't work, then they get elected and prove it. The Tea Party is pretty much epitomizing this idiom as we speak. The notion that the "government" has had many opportunities to enact daily life improvements for people and has failed to do so ignores 1) the very stuff mentioned in the chart that opened this thread and 2) the fact that in the past few decades moneyed interests have shifted the dialogue so far to the right that a moderate by any reasonable standard like Obama can be painted not just a leftist, but a socialist! He has to quote Ronald Reagan regularly to even get his foot in the door, though even Reagan was to the left of plenty of these congressmen. Congress (including conservative Dems) has stymied him every step of the way, and he's barely even left of the center (the real center, not the manufactured news-scape center).

All that is to say, you can't talk about the "government" as if it's a monolith that's gotten its way, its one way, the entire time and every American problem is its fault. The chart in the OP is itself evidence that the government does plenty to help that people don't even know about. The GI Bill is a success. Head Start and Americorps are success stories. Food Stamps are a success (and keeping ~6 million people afloat right now). I love the military, the post office, the FDA, social security, and medicare. Their flaws can be hammered out without striking the whole thing out. And of course what we're talking about in terms of revenue increases has more to do with removing Bush's disastrous tax cuts and closing corporate tax loopholes (and I believe actually lowering the corporate tax rate, but just forcing corporations to actually pay it at all).

I just read an interesting article about the racial wealth gap. It uses color lines for historical and statistical purposes (no whites vs. minorities rhetoric, if that's a fear), but it really gets to the heart of what a lack of even minuscule tangible wealth means to families/individuals. The comments also features some legit criticism of leaving out Native Americans (as usual) as well as some helpful implosion of the model minority myth for Asians. Some of these conclusions, though, I think can be drawn out to the wealth gap in general:


The Racial Wealth Gap’s Larger Than Ever. Here’s How It Will Destroy Us

This morning features two large and frustrating pieces of economic news. One: Washington’s silly fight over a fake debt crisis (rather than the real debt crisis) isn’t likely to resolve itself in time to avoid a manufactured catastrophe. Two: When measured by wealth, racial inequality in the U.S. is greater than it’s been since 1984. Anybody truly concerned about the country’s future solvency should be most alarmed by the latter news. The racial wealth gap has been enormous ever since the Census Bureau began measuring it 25 years ago. But it has never been larger than today. The median wealth of a white family is now at least 20 times higher than that of a black family and 18 times that of a Latino family, according to an analysis by the Pew Research Center.

Pew looked at wealth numbers between 2005 and the technical end of the U.S. recession in 2009. It found that the racial wealth gap exploded in that time period, as blacks and Latinos suffered dramatic blows from the collapsed housing market. Median wealth—the net value of your assets versus your debts—fell by 66 percent among Latino households and 53 percent among black households, while it fell just 16 percent among white households. By 2009, median black and Latino families each held less than $7,000 in wealth; the median white family held $113,149.

Posted Image

That’s a lot of numbers. But they all add up to something quite simple: When the economy struggles, those who are least secure get crushed. That’s nothing new, and neither is Washington’s refusal to deal with it. With the exception of the aggressive efforts to create a white middle class following World War II, U.S. economic policy has never encouraged economic equality. What’s new today is how much economic policy actually facilitates inequality.

Certainly the recent explosion in the wealth gap is owing to the fact that the little wealth black and Latino families hold is disproportionately locked up in homes. White families are far more likely to have jobs with retirement accounts and investments in the stock market. Those black and Latino families that have wealth depend on the housing market for it.

But that’s still more symptom than root cause. Black and Latino families are also far more likely to live in places crawling with expensive, deceptive consumer lending of all sorts, from car loans to refinance mortgages. They are more likely to turn to that lending because they make less money and because they already hold less wealth to cushion themselves in tough times. It’s an ugly cycle: inequality across the economy creates demand for predatory credit to bridge the gap, which in turn worsens inequality.

So things are right now growing dire in communities of color—with home wealth evaporating, joblessness lingering and wages falling, people have never been more vulnerable to predation. That’s a problem for people of color, yes, but it’s also a problem for the entire economy. After all, we already know what happens when we leave huge segments of our economy open to predatory credit—see under: subprime mortgages and global economic collapse. And with blacks and Latinos already accounting for roughly a third of the people whose labor and spending create the economy—a share that will increase dramatically in the next generation—this sort of deep inequality is simply untenable.

Which means today’s Pew study is more of a benchmark than a final tally of the damage done in the past decade. Unless Washington intervenes to get people living-wage jobs and stop banks from preying on their wages with deceptive products, these numbers will grow more dramatic. That’s a problem for everyone.
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#71 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:40 PM

Sure there are government programs that work - and largely because of apathy and ignorance we have mostly gotten the 'government we deserve'.

But look at this shit, wtfnoway and tell me that we need to add more spending and not reform our liabilities in any way? Also, good luck rich people in taking care of all of this for us.
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#72 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:36 AM

We need to add spending that directly stimulates the economy AND we need to raise revenue AND we need to eliminate inefficiency AND we need to tighten the belt (but I like Obama's scalpal vs. chainsaw analogy during the election). I'm not saying it's raise taxes only, my way or the highway. There is no binary in terms of choices, that's a false dichotomy. That kind of thinking belongs to Grover Norquist types: “There are two solutions to a deficit problem: spend less or raise taxes." It's over-simplistic in the guise of practicality. And no surprise, the obstructionists in office right now are largely of that ilk: "The pledge not to raise taxes, penned by Norquist in 1986, has ensnared more than two hundred and fifty members of the current House and Senate..." (emphasis mine, article here: http://www.newyorker...tax-pledge.html). Progressives simply aren't the ones who've handcuffed themselves to ideology at all costs in this situation. It's not a hypothetical. Add the Tea Party to that equation, and you have far right ideologues, not conservative governors, who would sacrifice any number of human beings to their sour, mean-spirited, greed-worshiping personal principles.
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#73 User is offline   Daemonwolf 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:45 AM


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#74 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:14 AM

I agree cutting spending is not enough, but I'm not sure a scalpel is going to do enough. If by scalpel we mean to target things accurately and efficiently yes - but we have a lot of fat that needs amputating so the tools might need be bigger.
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#75 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:35 AM

I really was gonna give that an honest shot, and did for a couple minutes, but I just can't listen to another analogy comparing the national budget to a household budget. If there are some salient points within I wouldn't mind you summarizing them, but if you don't feel like it that's cool too.

In the mean time, this is the kind of stuff that is actually bothering far right legislators that actually hold power right now as we speak -- this isn't hyperbole, supervillainizing, or hypothetical: http://thehill.com/h...ehner-debt-bill

Conservatives angry over Pell Grant funding in Boehner debt bill
By Alexander Bolton -
07/28/11 06:13 PM ET
House conservatives who have stalled legislation to raise the national debt limit are angry that it includes $17 billion in supplemental spending for Pell Grants, which some compare to welfare.
Legislation crafted by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) to raise the debt limit by $900 billion would directly appropriate $9 billion for Pell Grants in 2012 and another $8 billion in 2013.
This has shocked some conservative House freshmen who say they were elected to cut spending, not increase it. Some House Republicans think of it as being akin to welfare.

Boehner's plan is dumb for many other reasons (as a byproduct of the manufactured controversy surround the debt ceiling it pretty much has to be), but setting aside relatively small amounts of direct financial aid to students in need should be among the least controversial uses of public funds possible. And yet for some it isn't. Rest assured, "House freshman" is a euphemism for Tea Party. They'd rather do long-lasting harm to most Americans, against their will, than support even the government programs that work the best. Fiscal responsibility might be the talking point, but the reality is spiteful, punitive, finger-wagging scorn for anyone who ever needs help with anything. Talk about scapegoating.

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#76 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:48 AM

View PostShinrei, on 29 July 2011 - 03:14 AM, said:

I agree cutting spending is not enough, but I'm not sure a scalpel is going to do enough. If by scalpel we mean to target things accurately and efficiently yes - but we have a lot of fat that needs amputating so the tools might need be bigger.


Indeed. And I'd wager we could come to a reasonable compromise. I don't even doubt that conservatives and progressives could come to a compromise, if that's what congress were made up with. But neo-con and Tea Party ideologues (in the House at least) won't even budge with a moderate president. Traditional conservatives embraced them to get the majority, helped get them elected, and now it's biting them in the nuts. John McCain even had a lucid moment yesterday and chastised the Tea Party reps. Republicans should be crucifying Grover Norquist, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity but they can't, they've shook hands with those particular devils already, and the power transfer was completed pre-Obama anyway. John Boehner actually briefed his plan to Rush Limbaugh before he presented it to his peers in the House, not that it did him any good.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 29 July 2011 - 03:49 AM

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#77 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:58 AM

Even the moderates are playing politics though. One of the things Obama didn`t like about the plan was that it brings the debt ceiling and spending up for debate again in the Spring, and the reason he doesnt like it is fairly obvious - he doesnt want that issue to be on the table that close to the 2012 elections.

One thing I believe about most of us here (nico?), we are at least level-headed enough to realize that compromise is necessary and actually desirable. Lets hope congress gets its act together.
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#78 User is offline   Daemonwolf 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 04:22 AM

@worrywort - the part to catch in the video was around the 6:15 mark, which is when he points out that if we fund welfare/medicare/social security/defense and shut down every other aspect of the government, we still can't balance our budget.

@shinrei - Capitol hill is all sorts of backwards on priorities, the whole group. They are always worried about the next election, and keeping 'power'. Even right now, I watch them scream about how this side, that side is risking a closing of the government and a default. I've yet to see one person stand up and say "we have failed"... Reminds me of the line "if progress means to move forward, what does Congress mean?"

@ everyone - I honestly don't care what side of the aisle, or which side of the country, any of these politicians are on.
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#79 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:26 AM

View PostShinrei, on 29 July 2011 - 03:14 AM, said:

I agree cutting spending is not enough, but I'm not sure a scalpel is going to do enough. If by scalpel we mean to target things accurately and efficiently yes - but we have a lot of fat that needs amputating so the tools might need be bigger.

As ill-conceived as it was, the Boehner plan was a plan at the least. I'm sure something will be concocted before August 1, but it may be an equally undesired solution finance/ economical-wise and it is going to piss off a whole lot of people who do not support it on both left and right wings, not to mention that everyone who nominally supports it will know it is an uneasy last-minute compromise that could have been so much better if only there had been more agreeing on necessities early on. This is a real dangerous game of chicken that's being played - first amongst the Republicans themselves, and if they had achieved unity, then between democrats and republicans.

If it actually comes to a default, well... It is clear no-one in US politics really considers the international backlash important at this stage, but I think it will do a major amount of harm. Even with the euro-zone doing as badly as it does right now, the Chinese have already said out loud several times that they're considering transferring their own wealth from dollars to euros and this will strengthen their beliefs. Seeing how much they hold of the US debts, that would be very, very bad news for you guys as they'
d be less interested in granting further loans/ buying US debts.

Also, Shin, sadly the reactions to that wtfnoway thing you posted speak volumes. The graph may be an illustration of what amount of money we're talking about, but it does not illustrate A. what the government can handle, B. what caused it, C. how to solve it intelligently.

Instead, such figures just lead to the following reasoning:
DEBT = BAD (correct),
CUT SPENDING = GOOD (perhaps, but not always).
GOVERNMENT SPENDS => GOVERNMENT = BAD (here it gets really faulty),
GOVERNMENT TAXES ME = GOVERNMENT IS TWICE AS BAD (and here, we arrive at a real faulty conclusion. Without a government, some gangster or warlord would take 75% of your income just because he can).

I won't go into the FB reactions people give to the graphs apart from saying that they are a perfect representation of why we actually have experts to deal with things and should restrict the unwashed masses to voting once every while for someone else who is equally ignorant but has two real abilities (wash themselves and convincingly pretend they can be experts/representatives of the unwashed), leaving it up to them to listen to the experts and twist their proposed solutions enough to their own political beliefs to make it look like there's actually a decision involved.
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#80 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 10:27 PM

View PostShinrei, on 29 July 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

Even the moderates are playing politics though. One of the things Obama didn`t like about the plan was that it brings the debt ceiling and spending up for debate again in the Spring, and the reason he doesnt like it is fairly obvious - he doesnt want that issue to be on the table that close to the 2012 elections.

One thing I believe about most of us here (nico?), we are at least level-headed enough to realize that compromise is necessary and actually desirable. Lets hope congress gets its act together.


Or, perhaps, it is just an even worse idea to play this game every 6 months. Do we want to set the precedent that we'll give half a year's worth of time before we come to this, again and again and again? Eventually playing that chicken (if it isn't right now which it very well could be) will result in a head-on collision. I'll give your idea credit up until the point Obama caved and was going to give 4-1 cuts to increase in taxes (through whatever means he could get), and was obviously playing ball that is killing him in the progressive wing of his party.

Re: China. From what I've heard priority spending of the (.60 we actually have for every 1.00 we owe) will be to US bond holders in the case of a default (whether that be legal or not, it's practical for the sake of the economy to prioritize it.)
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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