[Bonecaster]

Not sure this is going anywhere, but I was thinking...

Hood Ascended and became a god without dying. Much later, death (via Dragnipur), ended his godhood. Or did he die, then give up his godhood?

Death was the final step in Kellanved and Dancer Ascending and becoming gods.

Death was the final step in the Ascension of the Bridgeburners, but it didn't make them gods. (Did they later become the Collective God of Death?)

Treach Ascended without dying, but became a god by dying.

[Bonecaster]

In short, we have: death causing (or being a major ingredient in) Ascension and godhood; death causing Ascension, but not godhood; death causing godhood in one already Ascended; and death (maybe) removing godhood.

[Knowing]

Then there's Dassem, which I think is a whole new subject and one I'm not ready to tackle until after my series re-read.

I believe there was a point in which they mentioned Rake had already ascended, though I can't recall if that's a hypothetical ascention if his people worshiped him so

Spoiler

perhaps we'll see Rake ascend to godhood down the line

.

It also seems like to reach godhood the ascended character needs worshipers. From what I can remember, just about every god has some sort of cult or group of believers.

[Abyss]

The point i take is that in the Malaz world, power requires sacrifice, and one's own death is a major sacrifice. The death could be part of the pursut of power, or something else where the witnessing of the death by others propels the ascension reagrdless of whatever the intention was.

The other thing to bear in mind is that death is only ONE possible route to ascension, but far from the only route.

Also, all gods are ascendents, but not all ascendents are gods.

[worry]

SE just threw in those exceptions to the death rule so kids wouldn't try ascending at home.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 07 July 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

The point i take is that in the Malaz world, power requires sacrifice, and one's own death is a major sacrifice. The death could be part of the pursut of power, or something else where the witnessing of the death by others propels the ascension reagrdless of whatever the intention was.

The other thing to bear in mind is that death is only ONE possible route to ascension, but far from the only route.

Also, all gods are ascendents, but not all ascendents are gods.

Also, not all gods are ascendants. It's complicated.

[Bonecaster]

Abyss, on 07 July 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

The point i take is that in the Malaz world, power requires sacrifice, and one's own death is a major sacrifice. The death could be part of the pursut of power, or something else where the witnessing of the death by others propels the ascension reagrdless of whatever the intention was.

Death doesn't seem to be much of a sacrifice to my eyes. Even your run-of-the-mill inhabitant of the MU knows they're going to one afterlife or another. Most of them Hood's, I suppose. But those who expect to Ascend aren't losing anything by dying. They're just changing some aspect of their nature, and they're trading up.

Abyss, on 07 July 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

The other thing to bear in mind is that death is only ONE possible route to ascension, but far from the only route.

Absolutely true. Heck, even the member's of Capustan's Mask Council are listed as Ascendants.

D, on 07 July 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

Abyss, on 07 July 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

Also, all gods are ascendents, but not all ascendents are gods.

Also, not all gods are ascendants. It's complicated.

So which is it? I'm with Abyss. Is there reason to believe all gods are not Ascendants?

[worry]

Well, is the Crippled God an ascendent? Is Mother Dark? I have no clue.

[Kanese S's]

I'm with Worrywort here. Mother Dark is most definitely a deity, but calling her an "ascendant" would be a bit odd, as did she ever actually ascend? Was she ever something other than either a goddess or an elemental force?

And Kaminsod descended, he didn't ascend. We have no idea what his existence was like in his own realm, but he was already a god when he arrived, messily, on the scene. His home world might have similar systems of ascension, and he might have been something else before being a god, but then again, he might not have been.

[Kanubis]

I was under the impression that to Ascend you had to have been mortal to begin with, which clearly isn't the case for some of the Elder deities (Mother Dark being perhaps the best example.)

I do think that for a mortal Ascension is a necessary step to Godhood.

For some reason I can't help but think that Kaminsod's home world was monotheistic. I have absolutely nothing to support this.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Kanubis, on 08 July 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

For some reason I can't help but think that Kaminsod's home world was monotheistic. I have absolutely nothing to support this.

I don't know, I remember something about the CG being at war with other gods in his world and that he fell in the trap because he thought he had found allies.

[Use Of Weapons]

I don't think you have to be mortal to Ascend. But I do think the nature of Ascendancy varies depending on your starting position. Also, it seems Ascendancy is the first step on the path to fuckloads of power, and so asking if beings like Mother Dark and Hood are Ascendants is like asking if Tiam is a ho, or if space is big. The answer is yes, but just doesn't go far enough with how emphatic that yes is. (ref: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_NI-ltHISNk "How big is it?" "Vast." "Thanks for that -- 'oh, very big. If I was to quantify its bigness it would be doing it a disservice! Bigly big.'")

Thus, my concept of Ascendancy: if you're mortal, it's a long way to Ascendancy, and it requires lots of power-ups. If you're an Elder Race member, it's much closer, and possibly you'll get there just by living your life. Elder Gods get Ascendancy as a bundled package with their god-ness.

[Bonecaster]

Very interesting comments... Yeah, despite the meaning of the word, I'd not been thinking that Ascendants needed to ascend from any state of being that is in any way lesser. I'd been thinking of it as a being who possess certain (very undefined) characteristics. But perhaps not.

[Abyss]

D, on 07 July 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

Abyss, on 07 July 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

The point i take is that in the Malaz world, power requires sacrifice, and one's own death is a major sacrifice. The death could be part of the pursut of power, or something else where the witnessing of the death by others propels the ascension reagrdless of whatever the intention was.

The other thing to bear in mind is that death is only ONE possible route to ascension, but far from the only route.

Also, all gods are ascendents, but not all ascendents are gods.

Also, not all gods are ascendants. It's complicated.

Actually, D'rek (and others downthread) makes a very good point and i stand corrected - beings like Mother Dark, Father Light and arguably at least some of the Elder Gods started out as powerful as they would be, so they aren't in fact 'ascended'.

'Ascension' as a concept means becoming more than you started out as. There are a ton of variations on how this works in the series, but the bottom line is someone starting out as something and becoming something else, generally, but not always, more powerful.

Bonecaster, on 08 July 2011 - 03:54 AM, said:

...Death doesn't seem to be much of a sacrifice to my eyes. Even your run-of-the-mill inhabitant of the MU knows they're going to one afterlife or another. Most of them Hood's, I suppose. But those who expect to Ascend aren't losing anything by dying. They're just changing some aspect of their nature, and they're trading up.

Not quite... for one thing, in dying there is absolutely no certainty of ascension. Anyone who goes that route is taking the risk that it won't work. Kel and Dancer faked their own deaths - they didn't actually stick a knife inside a major organ and think 'here goes nothing!'. But Itkovian, Trake, and various others just died, with no intention of doing anything other than rotting. it was other forces that propelled them to ascension to godhood.

Kanese S, on 08 July 2011 - 06:20 AM, said:

...
And Kaminsod descended, he didn't ascend. We have no idea what his existence was like in his own realm, but he was already a god when he arrived, messily, on the scene. His home world might have similar systems of ascension, and he might have been something else before being a god, but then again, he might not have been.

Bauchelain the Evil, on 08 July 2011 - 08:19 AM, said:

Kanubis, on 08 July 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

For some reason I can't help but think that Kaminsod's home world was monotheistic. I have absolutely nothing to support this.

I don't know, I remember something about the CG being at war with other gods in his world and that he fell in the trap because he thought he had found allies.

Yep. In fact, while immensely powerful, i don't even think he was the strongest god in his own pantheon. A flashback in MT to the Fall with tonnes of falling chunks of temple and penis statues suggests Kaminsod was originally some sort of lust god.

UseOfWeapons, on 08 July 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

...Thus, my concept of Ascendancy: if you're mortal, it's a long way to Ascendancy, and it requires lots of power-ups. ...

Yes and no. Disregard their history with Fener and Stormy and Gesler more or less ascend by being on the wrong ship at the wrong time. Same went for Baudin but that didn't work out so well for him. Whole chunks of the human First Empire ascended just by hanging around doing nothing but most of them went bugnuts. Dessimbelackis ascended himself into a bunch of nasty deragoth who probably don't even remember being Dessimbelackis in the first place. The CG's High Priest/Leper ascended himself into paralysis, insanity and eventually death.

Quote

If you're an Elder Race member, it's much closer, and possibly you'll get there just by living your life. Elder Gods get Ascendancy as a bundled package with their god-ness.

Actually, an EG could ascend by changing their aspect or gaining additional power. Ascending means becoming more. if you start out as an EG, you're not an ascendent unless you ascend, but that doesn't mean someone isn't going to use the term to refer to them as such simply because the EG in question is more than a 'mere mortal'.

Bonecaster, on 08 July 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Very interesting comments... Yeah, despite the meaning of the word, I'd not been thinking that Ascendants needed to ascend from any state of being that is in any way lesser. I'd been thinking of it as a being who possess certain (very undefined) characteristics. But perhaps not.

And you would be right. Except where you're not. And then only to a certain degree. Sort of. kinda. Almost. Maybe. WheeEEEeeeeee....

- Abyss, so very certain.

[Use Of Weapons]

Abyss, on 08 July 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

UseOfWeapons, on 08 July 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

...Thus, my concept of Ascendancy: if you're mortal, it's a long way to Ascendancy, and it requires lots of power-ups. ...

Yes and no. Disregard their history with Fener and Stormy and Gesler more or less ascend by being on the wrong ship at the wrong time. Same went for Baudin but that didn't work out so well for him. Whole chunks of the human First Empire ascended just by hanging around doing nothing but most of them went bugnuts. Dessimbelackis ascended himself into a bunch of nasty deragoth who probably don't even remember being Dessimbelackis in the first place. The CG's High Priest/Leper ascended himself into paralysis, insanity and eventually death.

I didn't say those pwer-ups were necessarily either sought after, welcome, or even accepted Some are born great, some choose greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them. Hmm, I wonder if being raped would confer Ascendancy to some particular unfortunate? Wonder if that was actually the path to Ascendancy for Felisin Younger, and possibly even coloured the aspect (Salvation) she took afterwards.

Abyss, on 08 July 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

Quote

If you're an Elder Race member, it's much closer, and possibly you'll get there just by living your life. Elder Gods get Ascendancy as a bundled package with their god-ness.

Actually, an EG could ascend by changing their aspect or gaining additional power. Ascending means becoming more. if you start out as an EG, you're not an ascendent unless you ascend, but that doesn't mean someone isn't going to use the term to refer to them as such simply because the EG in question is more than a 'mere mortal'.

I think here is where we disagree, really. To me, ascendancy (small-a) is just a word that means levelling up, which is how you seem to be using it. But big-A Ascendancy, as a process, has an upper limit, and once that limit is passed (however it is passed), it makes no sense to consider future, er, upgrades, as changes on the same fundamental level as it seems Ascendancy is. e.g. Hood's gaining of the throne of Ice ensured his Ascendancy. His subsequent claim to the Throne of Death, and rise to godhood, are not then further Ascensions, but merely changes in the nature of his fundamentally Ascended person. That's how I conceptualise it, anyway.

[Abyss]

UseOfWeapons, on 08 July 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

...
I think here is where we disagree, really. To me, ascendancy (small-a) is just a word that means levelling up, which is how you seem to be using it. But big-A Ascendancy, as a process, has an upper limit, and once that limit is passed (however it is passed), it makes no sense to consider future, er, upgrades, as changes on the same fundamental level as it seems Ascendancy is. e.g. Hood's gaining of the throne of Ice ensured his Ascendancy. His subsequent claim to the Throne of Death, and rise to godhood, are not then further Ascensions, but merely changes in the nature of his fundamentally Ascended person. That's how I conceptualise it, anyway.

We don't know what the power-level difference is between 'Hood the Jaghut God of Death' and 'Hood the post God of Death Jaghut who may or may not still be sitting on the Throne of Ice in the newly human aspected and re-awakened Omtose Phellack warren which may or may not still connect to death in some way'.

TCG suggests that Hood lost power overall but gained the ability to act directly. My point is that he didn't simply change his aspect, he changed his entire nature, and this is more complicated than a lateral to another god-slot in the pantheon.

Trake went from being a bugnuts ascendent trapped in his shapeshifter form but still worshipped as a god, to a dead shapeshifter ascended to primary but unestablished God of War, to a god of war 'demoted' to 'Hunter' of the House of War below the Wolves who were always ascended animals but in limbo for ages before taking or retaking the Beast Thrones that didn't exist for a few thousand years and weren't aspected to War in the first place but then became that and now my head hurts.

Point being even amongst ascendents and gods who were never mortal to begin with, ascension is not a straight line up or down in terms of aspect or power level.

[Use Of Weapons]

I never said it was, but now I'm confused about what your point with Hood is above. It's clear, and I agree, that stepping down from the role of god of Death is a status change for him. But it's also clear to me, and this is where I'm confused about your position, that this status change is not of the same degree as the one that occurred when he originally took up the role. You said yourself (at least, I think it was you who said) that he still retains some attachment to the role. It's probable that his occupancy of the role changed the nature of his essentially Ascended person to some degree. But I'm maintaining that that change is a change in degree, not a change in kind, which is what a mortal gaining their first Ascendancy seems to undergo.

It may be that we're describing the same, or similar, processes, but using the term for different parts of it. Or that our thresholds for when a change in degree becomes a change in kind have different values. My threshold for that would be when the individual so changed becomes aware of ramifications to the change beyond just the change in power/effect.

[Abyss]

Hmmm... we seem to be dancing around just what 'ascension' is...

Okay, let's look at Hood as our example...

Hood starts out as a Jaghut. He turns out to be an immensely powerful Jaghut and charismatic leader who gathers his people and leads them in a war against the concept of Death. Just baseline Jaghut, no more ascended than a talented human mage who becomes Emperor. So far no ascension.

At some point Hood the Jaghut sits on the Throne of Ice and takes control, to whatever extent, of the entire Omtose Phellack warren. At this point he ascends at least to some degree, so let's say he moves from Jaghut to Ascended Jaghut. So he's ascended.

In the course of the war his Jaghut peeps start believing in him, so much so that their belief takes a form of worship. So Hood the Ascended Jaghut gains more power. He's not a god, because the Jaghut don't have gods and are generally as powerful as the average god themselves, but he 'ascends' beyond the baseline Jaghut, even as exceptional one. So more ascension.

The War on Death goes horribly horribly wrong. The Jaghut people are shattered. Their armies are broken. Hood the Ascneded Jaghut Leader and thronesitter loses almost all his worshippers, his Elder OP warren loses massive chunks of power, and Hood himself essentially loses a lot of the power he gained to this point. So ass-ended as opposed to ascended.

BUT... somehow Hood gains control of the gateway to the Warren of Death. Not Death itself, but the path to it, whatever it is. He gives up his body, and then his powerful soul, which Jaghuts can do all sorts of stuff with, takes on the job nobody wanted. He starts 'managing' death. He starts guiding mortal souls to 'holding spaces' between their lives and actual oblivion. He starts allowing mortals and others to access the power his warren of death provides. And then over time, millions and millions of mortals start to affiliate the jaghut, with his silly hoood on his head, with Death. So he gains all the power that comes with it, along with the vulnerabilities. Before he was a powerful Jaghut. Now he's the God Of Death, and big heaping black gobs of power come with that. And also some other things like vulnerabilty via humans linked closely to him, limitations on how active he can be without attracting the attention of other gods. The distasteful impact of worshippers whose motives are anything but nice. and so on. And that's Hood the God we see for most of the series. Serious powerhouse. Ascended again, possibly mutiple times.

Then Rake cuts his head off. Hood brings his entire physical manifestation in the totality of his God-power to Darujhistan and gets his ass killed by Dragnipur. Deliberately if not reluctantly. When Hood arrives in Dragnipur he retains sufficient power to shove Chaos back, and enough link to Death to bring the armies in and order his pantheon and so on, but that's it, he's back to being a very very powerful Jaghut. So not a god, but still an ascendent.

And from Deadsmell in TCG we learn that a link still exists between Death and OP, but we also know that the Bridgeburners have taken on Hood's role as gatekeeper.

So Hood's power goes up and up, and down, and up again, and his aspect changes at least twice and to various degrees. And SOME of those steps are 'ascension' however you capitalize it and others are loss of power while still ramining a badass.

And THAT's how ascension which works, which is to say, any which way.

[champ]

Hood...

Quote

'Abyss! A Jaghut, yes, but not just any Jaghut! Calm - can you hear me? Through this now? Can you hear me? An ally stands before me - an ally of ancient - so ancient - power! This one could have been an Elder God. This one could have been... anything!

Badass #1

This post has been edited by champ: 08 July 2011 - 06:23 PM

[Abyss]

Excellent quote fu.

Which also brings to mind that when Rake sacrificed himself to save Mommy D and the Andii, he ensured that Hood would be available to step into the 'massively powerful asskicker on the side of the good guys more or less' role (possibly Draconus too, but Hood was a direct negotiation)., in essence guaranteeing that, like Rake, Hood would be another ascendent who could be a god but would remain active in the world instead...

Which raises that whole category of 'could be a god but isn't' that Rake and Dassem fit in to, further complicated by the scene in TCG where we saw a dickhead Dessembrae who apparently exists separately from Traveller/Dassem.