[Osseric]

Well, read it again, and I will second and triple the "WTF?" at the coincidence that, of all people, Serc "investigated" Tiam.

As I am trying to think, here is what is hovering between my ears:

<off-thread>
Serc : Dude, we're fucked
Tiam: Dude, I know. They're not even arguing which to lynch, only in what order to do it.
Serc: I have an idea

<on-thread>
Serc: I'm not dangerous, I'm just a finder! And I investigated Tiam, she's not dangerous either, she's Fu Fu the Flower Girl!
Tiam: Gasp!


I'll go take my pills now

[Okaros]

Well I am off to bed. I will check in before class tomorrow to see whats what.

[Osseric]

Okaros, on 04 October 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Osseric, on 04 October 2011 - 05:35 AM, said:

I have to think about that reveal. I'm not sure what would be the point of a fake reveal, specially considering that Tiam doesn't seem to contradict him (I might be wrong, I read the last pages quick, I'll go back to read them again)

But just one thing: when Serc put out his reveal to prove he was not an Emperor, I don't think he actually did. Because of the find, people assume now he's the Prime Minister of Lu, but then how would Gamelon know to symp him on page 1? But look at the Prime Minister role from the OP:

Prime Minister
Each middle kingdom also has a Prime Minister. Prime Ministers can use the standard heal, guard and find night actions, as well as special abilities that can assist other players in their dynasty and provide their Emperor with extra information.

edit: removed some strange html tag from copy/pasting

Not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that the "extra information" bit implies that an emperor would have a find ability as well? Or that a PM can communicate off thread with an emperor?

I don't know the mechanics, but if the PM can find, and provide information to the Emperor, there's a chance that the Emperor could be kept aware of finds not made by himself.

i.e. it doesn't add to the case that Serc might be an Emperor, but it doesn't invalidate it completely either.

[Osseric]

Well, paranoid dementia aside, the solution is clear.

They're both lying, we'll find out by lynching one of them.

Serc gave a real find, it still doesn't mean he's not Gamelon's Emperor. We'll find out by lynching him.

remove vote

vote Serc


One more question I have: If Serc is a real finder, why didn't he reveal Tiam as a powerful role, even as a lie? If he's honest on thread, he knows her faction, so unless he has reasons to keep her alive he can just lie and say "she's the Usurper!". We might lynch him first, see he's a finder from the CF, then go for Tiam after, and later find out he was lying about her. Serc can snigger in spoiler heaven that he brought an opponent down with him. As of now, he's basically defending her.

[Thyrllan]

Sorry, something came up IRL.

So we've got Serc, who's looking like a prime minister of Lu or Wan, and Tiam whose name we probably know but not their role (if they have one?), but that they're not an emperor.
It kinda looks to me like Serc could be the bigger player here.
That said, we really don't know whether the Usurper would come up during a find.

The Mockra thing is interesting, but it could just be that they're getting progressively more convinced in one direction than another, no?

[Tiamatha]

Path-Shaper, on 04 October 2011 - 04:48 AM, said:

It is 226 AD. 6 hours and 6 minutes remaining
24 Players still alive: Atrahal, Barghast, Emurlahn, Galain, Hood's Path, Karosis, Kaschan, Kessobahn, Korlat, Meanas, Mockra, Okaros, Omtose, Osseric, Rashan, Ruse, Serc, Sheltatha Lore, Silanah, Sorritt, Telas, Tennes, Thyrllan, Tiamatha

13 votes to lynch, 12 votes to go to night.

7 Votes for Tiamatha ( Ruse, Karosis, Osseric, Rashan, Serc, Silanah, Mockra )
11 Votes for Serc ( Sorritt, Sheltatha Lore, Omtose, Meanas, Okaros, Emurlahn, Tennes, Telas, Barghast, Atrahal, Korlat )

Players not voted: Galain, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Kessobahn, Thyrllan, Tiamatha

At 9:48 PM there were 6 hours 6 minutes left.

Now it's 12:50am, so that leaves us at 3 hours 4 minutes.
Serc stands at L-1 , with Osseric switching his vote from myself to Serc.

Three hours left.
More discussion, people.

Afaik, Osseric, seriously, I don't know if it's dementia-paranoia or something deeper, but I'll have what you are smoking because it has to be good.
Are you proposing that Serc and me are sneaky/intelligent/manipulative enough to pull a stunt like that, but not realize that this entire 'operation' is built upon something that a simple CF can easily clear out?



EDIT: Corrected the time.

This post has been edited by Tiamatha: 04 October 2011 - 07:52 AM

[Meanas]

Wow, lots has been happening since I last posted I see. But...I think I'll keep my vote where it is. I don't doubt Serc's reveal of Tiamatha's identity actually, but Tiam at least becomes a known quantity then, and we can even roughly guess where they are on the map. Serc, however, is still an unknown. No, I no longer think that Serc is an Emperor, so the case on him pretty much goes out of the window, but there is the possibility that they are a more powerful role than Tiam.

The voters on Serc are in a somewhat impossible situation themselves. There is the risk that Serc is in my faction, of course, but to switch now would get others guessing on what faction I am in, and I don't want that so early in the game.

This new case of Tiam's on Mockra....I bet when Mockra was asking for other suspects, they weren't expecting Tiam to pull them out However, it strikes me that the case is built on Mockra's interaction with Tiamatha and not a lot else - it just makes it seem as if Tiam got aggravated by Mockra's calls for other suspects (and it is a little annoying, if Mockra is so unsure about the two in front of them, then why not say who they themselves are suspicious of?) and decided that 'aggravating' and 'suspicious' amount to the same thing. It's something to keep in mind, but the CF of whoever is lynched may throw up other leads also.

[Osseric]

@TiamI know, hence my vote.Then again, if Serc comes out finder-sounding upon CF, does that "clear" that his revealed find on you was honest?Like i said, both of you being on the block might cause some extreme, nothing-to-lose plan to save at least one. I've seen worse in this game

[Tiamatha]

Osseric, on 04 October 2011 - 06:59 AM, said:

One more question I have: If Serc is a real finder, why didn't he reveal Tiam as a powerful role, even as a lie? If he's honest on thread, he knows her faction, so unless he has reasons to keep her alive he can just lie and say "she's the Usurper!". We might lynch him first, see he's a finder from the CF, then go for Tiam after, and later find out he was lying about her. Serc can snigger in spoiler heaven that he brought an opponent down with him. As of now, he's basically defending her.

Go back, please.
Read the thread.
More carefully, this time.

That's all.

[Osseric]

Are you disagreeing that you look like someone people are less eager to lynch after his reveal? The theories about where worse than what Serc said IMHO. If he's honest, what does he have to gain? If he's lying, what does he have to gain? With both, i struggle with. But maybe I'm just lost to the tinfoil hat territory, let's see what others say.

[Osseric]

It is also possible that Serc was so eager to come out clean and save his skin that he revealed honest information about Tiam not realizing he had more to gain by lying.Anyways.

[Telas]

Holy mother of zombie jesus.

First, let me remove my vote for a little
remove vote
Just so there's no hammer while I'm writing this.

Serc, on 03 October 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

First, I'll

Vote Tiamatha

and now I will explain why.

I am a finder, and like any finder reveal, the proof will lie in the outcome of a lynch; namely, Tiam's. I know that Tiam is in the Xia faction. I don't know what role he is. (Personally, I think it's likely that he's the Usurper due to how often he mentions that role, but that is just opinion.) I've debated the value of revealing this information but with my lynch imminent, I don't see how this can hurt me. It will also force those of the Xia faction who may have voted for Tiam without knowing he was on their team to reconsider their votes if Tiam's lynch train picks up steam. They will be forced to either vote one of their own players or risk being identified as possible Xia members. Already we have the common (yet erroneous) assumption that I am the Lu Emperor, so anyone voting for me has already declared themselves non-Lu or they already know that I'm not the Lu Emperor and intend to remain quiet about that fact.

There are only a few possibilities concerning this reveal -

Option 1) I'm telling the truth about Tiam's faction. This means I cannot be the Lu Emperor which so many people seem to think I am. The OP states that Emperors know many of the locations of their faction members but not their alts, and although they have "special abilities that can affect numerous players", I'm guessing that one of those abilities isn't a simple find. However, I wouldn't know for sure, since I'm not an Emperor. So, what faction am I? Hard to say, and I'm not telling you. I could be Xia and now I'm throwing Tiam under the bus to save myself but that's unlikely; however, all other options are viable. I think many people forget that there are a total of six factions in this game, not three (with five currently active - Xia, Lu, Yan, and both Warlord factions), as well as roles that are not listed in the OP - not to mention seven players who haven't even posted ten times yet. There are a lot of possibilities out there.

Option 2) I'm lying about Tiam to avoid getting lynched. If you really, really think I'm the Lu Emperor then you haven't listened or paid attention to anything I've said all game anyway, so I don't expect this to change your mind. However, if you are an intrepid player who could see themselves voting for me or Tiam, try me. Test my claim and see if I'm lying; if so, lynch me tomorrow, it's not like I can prevent it.

If I do get hammered before I get another chance to respond or before others get a chance to switch their votes, be wary of these players, as they clearly are trying to avoid the possibility of Tiam's lynch and that makes them probable Xia members.

The bottom line is, if you're voting for me because you think I'm an Emperor, I don't see any reason that you would lynch me before testing my claim, because if I'm not the Lu Emperor, I may be on your team.

First and foremost, though I appreciate extra information appearing in the thread as much as the next bloke, I am not so convinced that revealing finder in a faction game like this is all that good of an idea. Or, to be clear, I doubt anyone would be daft enough to fake reveal as a finder considering that they'd then fall just bellow the Jester role (there's no jester and I'm not implying that there is) in how much most people would want them lynched.

Still, though Tiamatha's monster post about factions is good (the best faction theory so far imo), they're not entirely convincing. Not to mention that Serc could not have foreseen Tiam's caffeine high at the time he revealed. So, it is not too unlikely that Serc simply hoped that enough players would be worried about losing their faction's finder and thus gamble that the numbers would be enough to save him. To an extent it worked, but Tiam's narrowing of his possible factions seemed to have guaranteed a lynch at this point.

Mockra, on 04 October 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

I think we can pretty safely assume that Tiam is indeed Xia, because if they turned out not to be, then Serc knows their own lynch would only have been temporarily postponed.

I think we can also pretty safely assume that the vast majority/all the people who've so far voted Serc are - unless they didn't understand the case - of any faction except Lu.

What else? If we end up lynching Tiam and they are, say, the Xia emperor, do we then go and lynch Emur after (if you all remember the old case that Emur as civil official may have been signalling Tiam) in a culture hunt?

If we'd be playing a killer vs inno game all this would make sense.

Serc, on 04 October 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

Kaschan, on 04 October 2011 - 01:01 AM, said:

Hmm, finally caught up and somewhat undecided.

From a quick google search, if the name Serc has given is correct then Tiam is likely a military officer, ie. killer/healer. At the same time, there are two roles that can make finds, Civil Officials and PMs. With Gamelon a civil official and Emu a possible one, that makes it more likely that Serc is a PM and the more powerful role IMO.

And I guess maybe it's just me but, aside from the off chance that Serc finds the Usurper, why do we particularly care about confirming finders in a faction game? So that when he points out your leader, everyone else will believe him? I thought standard practice was to off them as quick as you could.

I'll be around for a bit, so not dropping a vote yet.

It's interesting that you don't understand the point of confirming the find and that you somehow still believe that the case for me being Gamelon's emperor has merit....actually, wait, you don't think I'm an emperor at all, but somehow you're undecided on whether to vote for me? You realize the entire train on me is based on me being the Lu Emperor...right? Why exactly are you considering a vote for me? Just because you think I have a "more powerful role"? Um...how do you know I'm not in your faction?

I smell a Xia member trying to avoid voting for Tiam. Lynch the finder pointing out your teammates so he doesn't find your leader? Yeah....right... It also doesn't help that this post you just made brings you from the lowest poster in the game to....tied for the lowest poster in the game.

This makes me less convinced of my above speculation of Serc though. It would almost seem that he simply does not understand why a finder would be an unpopular role in a faction game. That makes his motivation more opaque to my mind.

[Emurlahn]

very true. the meat of faction games is hiding your allegiance to throw the other factions off-balance. Finders ruin that.


why Serc thought finders would be welcome here is beyond me.

[Telas]

Thinking about this, I still find myself more willing to vote for Serc than Tiam. Especially as Serc claims finder which seems a little dangerous to keep around. I'd rather not have faction members thrown to the buss left and right.

Vote Serc

[Osseric]

Telas, on 04 October 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Holy mother of zombie jesus.

First, let me remove my vote for a little
remove vote
Just so there's no hammer while I'm writing this.

Lol, that usually works better when you make 2 separate posts

[Telas]

Osseric, on 04 October 2011 - 08:49 AM, said:

Telas, on 04 October 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Holy mother of zombie jesus.

First, let me remove my vote for a little
remove vote
Just so there's no hammer while I'm writing this.

Lol, that usually works better when you make 2 separate posts

Yes.. well... I have coffee now.

[Emurlahn]

and i'm going to bed.

I will probably be awake in roughly 6 hours

[Sorrit]

I'm around but I have a vote down already, not long to go now so I don't think changing is a viable option

[Tiamatha]

Osseric, on 04 October 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

@TiamI know, hence my vote.Then again, if Serc comes out finder-sounding upon CF, does that "clear" that his revealed find on you was honest?Like i said, both of you being on the block might cause some extreme, nothing-to-lose plan to save at least one. I've seen worse in this game

Are you asking me?

My answer will be :: No it doesn't. Not 100%.

Since Serc decided his defense strategy will be a finder reveal, then he had to decide which 'faction' he will attach me with. He couldn't come out and say that I belong to a Warlord Faction, since that would clearly and inevitably lead people to find out who he is, based on tile locations ---- If he claims I'm Ma Chao Faction, then that makes him the last remaining Lu Finder, hence their Prime Minister (since Xia and Yan finders will fail if they try to find a Ma Chao player due to tile distance). If he claims I'm Gongsun Zan Faction, then that makes him the Civil/Military Official of Xia or the Prime Minister of Xia (since Lu and Yan finders will fail if they try to find a Gongsun Zan player due to tile distance)

So he decided to go with one of the Chinese Factions. It's a safer bet, plus it reveals a lot let information about himself to the rest of us. His reveal was cryptic. Full of "I could be this, and that, and the other".

It's a 50% chance, Osseric.

Serc could be telling the truth about himself, but that still doesn't prove the legitimacy of his claims (ie the info he released about me). The only thing that will prove that beyond any reasonable doubt, is my CF. Even if Serc comes out with a finder-type CF, that doesn't back up his claim that he did a successful find on me, on day one. It might as well mean that he tossed a coin, and let it decide which faction I could possibly be.


Osseric, I wasn't being sarcastic earlier on.

Serc revealed finder by releasing a 'possible' faction for me, then clearly stated that according to his opinion I'm the Usurper.
When I called him out on withholding information, he released a supposed role name for me, as well.
Others picked up the fact that the name he released doesn't match up with the name that the Usurper has, in his initial role review - and removed the votes they had on me at that time.


So, your question is already answered. You still don't believe me? Again go back and look into the thread, at the middle of page 12.

Telas, on 04 October 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Still, though Tiamatha's monster post about factions is good (the best faction theory so far imo), they're not entirely convincing. Not to mention that Serc could not have foreseen Tiam's caffeine high at the time he revealed. So, it is not too unlikely that Serc simply hoped that enough players would be worried about losing their faction's finder and thus gamble that the numbers would be enough to save him. To an extent it worked, but Tiam's narrowing of his possible factions seemed to have guaranteed a lynch at this point.

I pointed that out as well, on my post.

Here it is :::

Tiamatha, on 04 October 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

You prey on the fact that Lu Faction members won't vote for you and risk losing their Prime Minister, and Yan Faction members won't vote for you and risk losing their Prime Minister / Civil-Military Officer.
So, you're building up something, on grounds that only a CF will resolve, based on the fact that the already 'hurt' faction will follow suit, and the other faction will think it over and switch.

And that's all structured on the hopes that people will show good faith and 'test' your claim. Hoping for what, exactly? That based on what you say, I am Xia Faction, with a possible chance of actually being the Emperor. Again, something that only a CF will clear out.

[Karosis]

holy crap....what happened here?


REMOVE VOTE


Just going to take a step back here for a second and think....