[Sheltatha Lore]

Tiamatha, on 03 October 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

Osseric there's not much I can add, to answer your questions there.

It's a team game - It doesn't matter whether I believe it's worth it or not. Am I willing? Well, I had been entertaining the thought, to be honest.
Reading the rules, even if a Factions Emperor is lynched/kill, that Faction still stands a chance to win the game. Are they severely handicapped? Probably yea, but I can't know the extend of the handicap since I don't know what exactly Emperors do, apart from what's written in their role review in the initial Path-Shaper post.

The Usurper though is stated that at SOME point he will start recruiting. Will it be Day 2? Day 3? Night 2 or 3? Day 4?!? Who the hell knows. Since it says 'AT SOME POINT' though, chances are he CAN'T recruit on Day 1.
So, risking a move like the one I was thinking, on day 1, though risky-bold-courageous-stupid or how ever you might want to call it, would have been worth it, in my opinion.

Could it prove disastrous or even costly, for the game? Well, hindsight is 20/20, we can speculate on that all we want, but it's like you're asking me to count the eggs before they hatch.

But like I said, my teammates might not share my opinion on the matter. Had this been a chess game, then I'm not against Queen sacrifices if I can exploit an opening, and eventually win the game.

As far as voting for Serc - I can add my vote now, but people will weight it as 'better him than me' situation.
Will it change anything if I voted for him, right now?

And Telas, I'm not provocative or hostile.
I'm having fun.
But people are currently pointing fingers at me for 'excessive Emperor hunting' , yet they vote for me, based on their believes that I am.. an Empress (Emperor)...
So who's doing the hunting now, my fellow players?

This post is confusing me. It reads as Tiam is admitting a role to me. (underlined parts) Am I being obtuse here?

[Atrahal]

I just read the case on Tiam from start to finish, and I can not say I am impressed. I see many cases of players ignoring answers and strawmaning. But that being said, lynching Tiam, and getting a CF would give a lot of info into the players pushing it, and the players avoiding it. I am going to vote for the known as apposed to the unknown. I think we have a lot more on Serc at this point and I think his play at the end of day yesterday is way to telling to me.

I will be back before end of day to shift my vote to Tiam if Serc comes back with a good defense. But for now I will up the count on Serc.

Vote Serc

[Tiamatha]

Sheltatha Lore, on 03 October 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 03 October 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

Osseric there's not much I can add, to answer your questions there.

It's a team game - It doesn't matter whether I believe it's worth it or not. Am I willing? Well, I had been entertaining the thought, to be honest.
Reading the rules, even if a Factions Emperor is lynched/kill, that Faction still stands a chance to win the game. Are they severely handicapped? Probably yea, but I can't know the extend of the handicap since I don't know what exactly Emperors do, apart from what's written in their role review in the initial Path-Shaper post.

The Usurper though is stated that at SOME point he will start recruiting. Will it be Day 2? Day 3? Night 2 or 3? Day 4?!? Who the hell knows. Since it says 'AT SOME POINT' though, chances are he CAN'T recruit on Day 1.
So, risking a move like the one I was thinking, on day 1, though risky-bold-courageous-stupid or how ever you might want to call it, would have been worth it, in my opinion.

Could it prove disastrous or even costly, for the game? Well, hindsight is 20/20, we can speculate on that all we want, but it's like you're asking me to count the eggs before they hatch.

But like I said, my teammates might not share my opinion on the matter. Had this been a chess game, then I'm not against Queen sacrifices if I can exploit an opening, and eventually win the game.

As far as voting for Serc - I can add my vote now, but people will weight it as 'better him than me' situation.
Will it change anything if I voted for him, right now?

And Telas, I'm not provocative or hostile.
I'm having fun.
But people are currently pointing fingers at me for 'excessive Emperor hunting' , yet they vote for me, based on their believes that I am.. an Empress (Emperor)...
So who's doing the hunting now, my fellow players?

This post is confusing me. It reads as Tiam is admitting a role to me. (underlined parts) Am I being obtuse here?

Osseric asked me if I was willing to 'sacrifice' my Emperor if that meant getting the Usurper as well.
I tried to answer that question by comparing an Emperor's worth to that of a Queen in a game of Chess - the difference been that Chess is 1v1 while here is Faction vs Faction (team effort), and opinions differ.

[Korlat]

I'm not sure i'll get back on this evening but i am going to try and pop in.

All things taken into account I think there is more of a chance that serc is a definite to come up as an emperor or a power role of some description, I think him and gamelon were linked and gamelon made a last minute attempt to distance himself from him. With that in mind.

Vote Serc

[Serc]

Mockra, on 01 October 2011 - 11:36 PM, said:

Right, let's get this thread going again!

Erm.....hmmm.

Well, my opinion is that Serc seems the likeliest target once voting resumes. The kind of argument that is being fielded against him - signalled and then distanced from by another player - is little he can do to defend himself against, as the actions weren't his that landed him in this. As I see it, all Serc can do is find another, even more viable, lynch candidate.

As for Tiamatha....I'm less convinced of that option right now, as Tiam has now been accused of being a Warlord, an Emperor, and the Usurper, all by basically the same argument But it's someone to bear in mind anyway.

This sums up pretty much the entire case against me. I have to say, it's pretty unbelievable. Not only has there not been a SINGLE question directed my way or any sort of request for me to "defend" myself, but there is no case against me, because there can't be. That's because nothing I've said can even remotely be used to support the theory that I'm Gamelon's Emperor. For this, Mafia friends, I am sorely disappointed in you all. I realize everyone wants a lynch and it's easy to pick the closest target, but holy fuck if this isn't some of the laziest play of all time. Anyone who actually thinks I'm Gamelon's Emperor should /gquit now and save themselves some shame when you get my CF.

In fact, I can prove that I am not Gamelon's Emperor.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Ok, Tiam's explanations and general vibe are not lynchable for me, and I don't think the power role is going to hang out in front so much for so long, so I will

Vote Serc


for carrying the suspicion as Game's boss

I intend to return before end of day to see developments, and I am open to changing situations, but sometimes things happen

[Sheltatha Lore]

@Serc - please explain your proof

[Barghast]

Tiamatha, on 03 October 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

Korlat, on 03 October 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 03 October 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

Speaking of thoughts then - Here's a curve ball.

Serc is being voted on grounds of being Gamelon's Emperor.
I am being voted on grounds of having a power role, and most people being convinced that I'm an Empress (Emperor).

Barghast initially voted for me, then switches to Serc - showing clear sign of having no issue between the two of us. So out of all the people who are saying that they wouldn't mind voting for me or Serc on the grounds of either of us being an Emperor - Barghast goes on and shows clearly he doesn't care which one of us actually gets lynched, and acts on it.


So Barghasts behavior can be explained as him being a Warlord -OR- Champion... OR surprise surprise, an Emperor himself.

Before this I was thinking he was potentially trying to deflect the vote from serc and therefore possibly of that faction but that vote change with time still left and an apparent abandoning of his supposed plan to pressure tiam made me pause a little, I was thinking emperor but i suppose warlord would also make a lot of sense, he certainly doesn't seem too concerned either way despite the earlier push for you and waiting to see how things develop in accordance to this, I thought his timing was strange.

To be fair, he could also be the Civil/Military Official of Xia or Yan (since Gamelon was the Lu Faction) --- since he knows the alt name of his Emperor already, and it's not one of the current ones under pressure.

Or Champion, I could just as well be a Warlord's underling.

In fact, by voting Serc, and only if he is Emperor, I can be anything but Lu and then any role in any faction, or perhaps even one of the three unmentioned roles, which might even make me Lu. By voting Tiamatha and keeping my vote there, I could even have been Lu if Serc comes up as their Emperor.

Since I firmly believe in faction games being won by keeping your own alignment hidden, not letting it become common knowledge that I'm probably not Lu-affiliated (and if Serc is the Lu Emperor, that probably will change into almost certainly), voting Tiamatha had the pleasant side benefit that I could still belong to any of the factions.

In all honesty, the only thing you have identified correctly is that I don't really care about being on or off Serc's lynch train, although I freely admit I am curious how he'll CF. Since so many think he is an Emperor he'll go down regardless of what he comes up with. Now, if he is an Emperor, there's one piece of the puzzle I'm not sure about. If Gamelon was distancing from Serc, that is acceptable since the civvie knows his Emperor. But.... why or how did Serc know enough to attack Emurlahn as vicious as he did? Did he want to save Gamelon, or was that a shot in the dark which embroiled him in a bitch fight with his own underling and his underlings mirror elsewhere? If he didn't know Gamelon, then this was one lesson in caution for power roles to not embroil themselves in early day skirmishes....

[Rashan]

Tiamatha, on 29 September 2011 - 04:09 PM, said:

Osseric, on 29 September 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

Anyways, why am I telling you this? You kinda agreed a few posts up. Except you think he freaked out from getting attention because of his awesome nasty role, not for getting his connection to Gamelon picked up.

I seriously doubt there's enough information on thread right now to figure out which (if any) is true.

Civil Official / Military Official is the awesome nasty role? I'd say Emperors and Prime Ministers are quite stronger --- not to mention anything about the two Warlords who command their own factions (and we're not given any info on this apart that they start at the edge of the map) --- and the other three role types that were not reviewed...

Umm... were you being sarcastic btw? Cause my sarcasm-o-meter is kinda malfunctioning right now..

This Tiam. A focus on Emperors, PMs and Warlords. In fact, I would hazard you are the Prime Minister of one of the three larger factions. You spend a lot of the earliest posts speculating on game mechanics, but you keep coming back to Emperors and the Usurper. Now, while you may or may not be a leader, you definitely act like someone who is focused on both protecting (from the Usurper) and attacking leaders (to knock off the "power" roles). Yet, you mention here that the prime minister could be dangerous force, but I fail to see any other comments once bringing this up. Dunno, just a random thought.

But what really caught my attention was your capitalizing early in the game. There are several posts early on (and no more since then) where you have massive posts, with paragraphs heaped on heaped paragraphs. Within these posts are words in all caps. I still am working on analyzing these posts, but here is a string of them from one post:

"THIS OMGUS POINT OUT ALL THAT YOU WHO DOES FIND"

I think that with this being a game with 10 different roles and 25 players, we can confidently assume that some people were signaling early on. Capitalization is a very popular mode of code seen in prior games, which is why it jumped out at me. Moreover, if you look back even earlier, you toy with <Tea Ceremony> and <Flower Arrangement> in one post. Again, I believe this is signaling, but I haven't been able to interpret it (TC FA ?).

Anyways, you have too much information circling around right now, in the form of people picking at you and you picking at them. This coupled with your insistence on certain roles and idiosyncrasies within your posts makes your lynch exceptionally valuable to the rest of us. I am sorry Tiam, but I must vote for you.

Vote TIAM

Edit: bolding vote.

This post has been edited by Rashan: 03 October 2011 - 10:00 PM

[Barghast]

Interesting post there, Rashan.

I'm off to bed, back in 8 or so, but since I start off with a meeting, followed by a first aid skill refreshment course, I may not be on for 12+ hours.

[Emurlahn]

Serc, on 03 October 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:

Mockra, on 01 October 2011 - 11:36 PM, said:

Right, let's get this thread going again!

Erm.....hmmm.

Well, my opinion is that Serc seems the likeliest target once voting resumes. The kind of argument that is being fielded against him - signalled and then distanced from by another player - is little he can do to defend himself against, as the actions weren't his that landed him in this. As I see it, all Serc can do is find another, even more viable, lynch candidate.

As for Tiamatha....I'm less convinced of that option right now, as Tiam has now been accused of being a Warlord, an Emperor, and the Usurper, all by basically the same argument But it's someone to bear in mind anyway.

This sums up pretty much the entire case against me. I have to say, it's pretty unbelievable. Not only has there not been a SINGLE question directed my way or any sort of request for me to "defend" myself, but there is no case against me, because there can't be. That's because nothing I've said can even remotely be used to support the theory that I'm Gamelon's Emperor. For this, Mafia friends, I am sorely disappointed in you all. I realize everyone wants a lynch and it's easy to pick the closest target, but holy fuck if this isn't some of the laziest play of all time. Anyone who actually thinks I'm Gamelon's Emperor should /gquit now and save themselves some shame when you get my CF.

In fact, I can prove that I am not Gamelon's Emperor.

please elaborate


edited, b/c it posted after I underlined Game's quote, but before I had a chance to write anyhting.

This post has been edited by Emurlahn: 03 October 2011 - 10:28 PM

[Serc]

First, I'll

Vote Tiamatha

and now I will explain why.

I am a finder, and like any finder reveal, the proof will lie in the outcome of a lynch; namely, Tiam's. I know that Tiam is in the Xia faction. I don't know what role he is. (Personally, I think it's likely that he's the Usurper due to how often he mentions that role, but that is just opinion.) I've debated the value of revealing this information but with my lynch imminent, I don't see how this can hurt me. It will also force those of the Xia faction who may have voted for Tiam without knowing he was on their team to reconsider their votes if Tiam's lynch train picks up steam. They will be forced to either vote one of their own players or risk being identified as possible Xia members. Already we have the common (yet erroneous) assumption that I am the Lu Emperor, so anyone voting for me has already declared themselves non-Lu or they already know that I'm not the Lu Emperor and intend to remain quiet about that fact.

There are only a few possibilities concerning this reveal -

Option 1) I'm telling the truth about Tiam's faction. This means I cannot be the Lu Emperor which so many people seem to think I am. The OP states that Emperors know many of the locations of their faction members but not their alts, and although they have "special abilities that can affect numerous players", I'm guessing that one of those abilities isn't a simple find. However, I wouldn't know for sure, since I'm not an Emperor. So, what faction am I? Hard to say, and I'm not telling you. I could be Xia and now I'm throwing Tiam under the bus to save myself but that's unlikely; however, all other options are viable. I think many people forget that there are a total of six factions in this game, not three (with five currently active - Xia, Lu, Yan, and both Warlord factions), as well as roles that are not listed in the OP - not to mention seven players who haven't even posted ten times yet. There are a lot of possibilities out there.

Option 2) I'm lying about Tiam to avoid getting lynched. If you really, really think I'm the Lu Emperor then you haven't listened or paid attention to anything I've said all game anyway, so I don't expect this to change your mind. However, if you are an intrepid player who could see themselves voting for me or Tiam, try me. Test my claim and see if I'm lying; if so, lynch me tomorrow, it's not like I can prevent it.

If I do get hammered before I get another chance to respond or before others get a chance to switch their votes, be wary of these players, as they clearly are trying to avoid the possibility of Tiam's lynch and that makes them probable Xia members.

The bottom line is, if you're voting for me because you think I'm an Emperor, I don't see any reason that you would lynch me before testing my claim, because if I'm not the Lu Emperor, I may be on your team.

[Rashan]

This also means that you have to be proximal to Xia territory, which means most likely you are Lu or Yan, and less likely Gongsun Zan or Lin Yao. I actually think you are probably Gongsun Zan (see aforementioned comment about your signaling and high likelihood of being a White Rider), which would fit into the paradigm of you being able to find someone in the Xia Empire.

[Rashan]

I would find it interesting to see what you are Serc, since if you do turn out to be in one of the minor factions, it would give us more information (beyond the Warlord and Champion roles) on the capabilities of those factions. However, I would also like to confirm your finder status and Tiamatha's role simultaneously, and thus I will hold my vote on Tiam so I can get two reveals for the price of one (in the best case scenario that you are telling the truth).

That's my 2 cents.

[Ruse]

Exactly, for that find to have worked you would have to be in the same vicinity and not have been blocked.

One thing that is interesting in watching the votes fall is how people voting Tiam don't dismiss the case on Serc, but neither do they really question it. People voting Serc also are not bothering to really question Serc's emperor-hood but they do question the Tiam case.

The theory that Serc is Gamelon's emperor is not a bad one per se - but there's an appearance that it has become a hard and fast truth in people's minds. With no one even really questioning the case on Serc, I was beginning to wonder if he could actually be an emperor with that lack of support.

Well, it's very easy to test to see if Serc is lying - we test the reveal.

2 thoughts though

A) Damn convenient he searched Tiam
He could be Tiam's emperor as well, sacrificing Tiam in order to seem legit. That might explain Tiam's lack of Serc vote.

[Mockra]

And here I was all set to just believe Serc's find...but luckily smarter players than I are on the ball and have suggested various other possible intentions. As has been said, investigating Tiam seems mighty convenient. I find the argument that Serc is an Emperor and Tiam is one of his lackeys who knows him quite convincing at present, strengthened by Tiam's non-vote on Serc. Tiam has said they haven't done this because people would just say "oh, only doing it to deflect away from their own lynch", but on reflection, so what? Wouldn't most in the same situation vote for the other candidate in order to rack up their vote count? They would, unless there's more going on beneath the surface.

Of course, if this is correct, then the theory that Gamelon and Serc are connected (which started all this) is wrong. So I'm not sure how we reconcile that. Because if the above theory is correct, then that seems mighty unlucky for the Xia faction, having two of their members up against the wall, no?

[Silanah]

Serc, on 03 October 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

First, I'll

Vote Tiamatha

and now I will explain why.

I am a finder, and like any finder reveal, the proof will lie in the outcome of a lynch; namely, Tiam's. I know that Tiam is in the Xia faction. I don't know what role he is. (Personally, I think it's likely that he's the Usurper due to how often he mentions that role, but that is just opinion.) I've debated the value of revealing this information but with my lynch imminent, I don't see how this can hurt me. It will also force those of the Xia faction who may have voted for Tiam without knowing he was on their team to reconsider their votes if Tiam's lynch train picks up steam. They will be forced to either vote one of their own players or risk being identified as possible Xia members. Already we have the common (yet erroneous) assumption that I am the Lu Emperor, so anyone voting for me has already declared themselves non-Lu or they already know that I'm not the Lu Emperor and intend to remain quiet about that fact.

There are only a few possibilities concerning this reveal -

Option 1) I'm telling the truth about Tiam's faction. This means I cannot be the Lu Emperor which so many people seem to think I am. The OP states that Emperors know many of the locations of their faction members but not their alts, and although they have "special abilities that can affect numerous players", I'm guessing that one of those abilities isn't a simple find. However, I wouldn't know for sure, since I'm not an Emperor. So, what faction am I? Hard to say, and I'm not telling you. I could be Xia and now I'm throwing Tiam under the bus to save myself but that's unlikely; however, all other options are viable. I think many people forget that there are a total of six factions in this game, not three (with five currently active - Xia, Lu, Yan, and both Warlord factions), as well as roles that are not listed in the OP - not to mention seven players who haven't even posted ten times yet. There are a lot of possibilities out there.

Option 2) I'm lying about Tiam to avoid getting lynched. If you really, really think I'm the Lu Emperor then you haven't listened or paid attention to anything I've said all game anyway, so I don't expect this to change your mind. However, if you are an intrepid player who could see themselves voting for me or Tiam, try me. Test my claim and see if I'm lying; if so, lynch me tomorrow, it's not like I can prevent it.

If I do get hammered before I get another chance to respond or before others get a chance to switch their votes, be wary of these players, as they clearly are trying to avoid the possibility of Tiam's lynch and that makes them probable Xia members.

The bottom line is, if you're voting for me because you think I'm an Emperor, I don't see any reason that you would lynch me before testing my claim, because if I'm not the Lu Emperor, I may be on your team.

I was unimpressed by either case up until this point. Now we have a reason to vote one way or the other, and test two hypothesis.

Mockra, on 03 October 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

And here I was all set to just believe Serc's find...but luckily smarter players than I are on the ball and have suggested various other possible intentions. As has been said, investigating Tiam seems mighty convenient. I find the argument that Serc is an Emperor and Tiam is one of his lackeys who knows him quite convincing at present, strengthened by Tiam's non-vote on Serc. Tiam has said they haven't done this because people would just say "oh, only doing it to deflect away from their own lynch", but on reflection, so what? Wouldn't most in the same situation vote for the other candidate in order to rack up their vote count? They would, unless there's more going on beneath the surface.

Of course, if this is correct, then the theory that Gamelon and Serc are connected (which started all this) is wrong. So I'm not sure how we reconcile that. Because if the above theory is correct, then that seems mighty unlucky for the Xia faction, having two of their members up against the wall, no?

Tiam was very much an interesting character of day 1. A night 1 find seems reasonable to me.

Vote Tiam

[Serc]

Mockra, on 03 October 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

And here I was all set to just believe Serc's find...but luckily smarter players than I are on the ball and have suggested various other possible intentions. As has been said, investigating Tiam seems mighty convenient. I find the argument that Serc is an Emperor and Tiam is one of his lackeys who knows him quite convincing at present, strengthened by Tiam's non-vote on Serc. Tiam has said they haven't done this because people would just say "oh, only doing it to deflect away from their own lynch", but on reflection, so what? Wouldn't most in the same situation vote for the other candidate in order to rack up their vote count? They would, unless there's more going on beneath the surface.

Of course, if this is correct, then the theory that Gamelon and Serc are connected (which started all this) is wrong. So I'm not sure how we reconcile that. Because if the above theory is correct, then that seems mighty unlucky for the Xia faction, having two of their members up against the wall, no?

You can't have it both ways - the only possible evidence for me being an emperor, weak though it may be, is the Gamelon connection. If I'm not connected to Gamelon, there is no reason to suggest that I'm an emperor at all. Zero. Except whatever someone wants to pull out of their ass.

Yes, I was lucky that my Find on Tiam succeeded, but I'm not an idiot. I clashed with Tiam on day one and he was one of the few players I went back and forth with while defending myself; Tiam's been pretty active anyway, so investigating him made a lot of sense. It was a good play that turns out to have worked in my favor more than I thought it would.

As for the location problem, no matter where you assume I started on the map, a single Move could always put me adjacent to at least one Xia territory. Assuming I could Move successfully, there is no possible starting location that would prevent me from being able to Find a Xia player.

[Omtose]

Hmmm well what a interesting day. I love it when people reveal. It spices everything up. To believe you or not.

Even if a player believes you then does it server that players factions purpose to let you live. If they don't believe you then obviously they can't let you go on as other people will use you as camouflage. By revealing you force people who are in your faction to either out themselves or to vote a faction mate out in order to hide and avoid the culture hunt that is going on. Yep nothing like a reveal to increase the amount of (already large) WIFOM going on.

[Rashan]

Serc, on 04 October 2011 - 12:05 AM, said:

Mockra, on 03 October 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

And here I was all set to just believe Serc's find...but luckily smarter players than I are on the ball and have suggested various other possible intentions. As has been said, investigating Tiam seems mighty convenient. I find the argument that Serc is an Emperor and Tiam is one of his lackeys who knows him quite convincing at present, strengthened by Tiam's non-vote on Serc. Tiam has said they haven't done this because people would just say "oh, only doing it to deflect away from their own lynch", but on reflection, so what? Wouldn't most in the same situation vote for the other candidate in order to rack up their vote count? They would, unless there's more going on beneath the surface.

Of course, if this is correct, then the theory that Gamelon and Serc are connected (which started all this) is wrong. So I'm not sure how we reconcile that. Because if the above theory is correct, then that seems mighty unlucky for the Xia faction, having two of their members up against the wall, no?

You can't have it both ways - the only possible evidence for me being an emperor, weak though it may be, is the Gamelon connection. If I'm not connected to Gamelon, there is no reason to suggest that I'm an emperor at all. Zero. Except whatever someone wants to pull out of their ass.

Yes, I was lucky that my Find on Tiam succeeded, but I'm not an idiot. I clashed with Tiam on day one and he was one of the few players I went back and forth with while defending myself; Tiam's been pretty active anyway, so investigating him made a lot of sense. It was a good play that turns out to have worked in my favor more than I thought it would.

As for the location problem, no matter where you assume I started on the map, a single Move could always put me adjacent to at least one Xia territory. Assuming I could Move successfully, there is no possible starting location that would prevent me from being able to Find a Xia player.

Not if you were Ma Teng. Just saying.