[Seatiger]

Just been skimming threads and the mention of WhiskeyJack made me think of him a little being the leader of the bridgeburners and a de ranked veteran of the old gaurd I dont thinks hes given as much recognition as others.

I hope I remember correctly I believe people looked to him when laseen took control of the empire and I think based on my own opinion this guy should be just as good as any of the old gaurd were. Had he not had a bum leg he would of faught of Kallor in my opinion.

Hes also someone I believe Erikson just never game as much story to as I would have liked.

[worry]

Bonecaster, on 04 July 2011 - 11:08 PM, said:

Yes, you're right, worrywort. I just took the title of the thread to mean hand-to-hand, or sword, or spear, or whatever weapon. If you're asking who the best boxer is, you don't include God anywhere in the list. But that's not necessarily what the thread's about. I just jumped to that conclusion.

Haha, well I don't know what exactly the OP's intent was either, I was just taking advantage of the fact that he left the wording vague enough for me to be right.
Also, there's already a "best swordsman" thread somewhere so I was hoping this was a broader subject. Wish fulfillment through will alone!

[Aptorian]

Abberon, on 04 July 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

I don't think that Rake is at the very top of the the list for a couple of reasons. First, he and Shadowthrone muse in GoTM that it would be an even fight between them and Shadowthrone is only a new God in the pantheon. I'm sure they're both freaking badass and whatnot, but I think there are people out there that can best them.

First of all, that was GotM.

Second of all, Rake said that the shadowgods might have a chance if the they both attacked him along with the Hound of Shadows.

Young or Old god, power is power. Shadowthrone had the strength of an entire warren at his disposal, Cots is a very dangerous fighter (as demonstrated in HOC) and the Shadow Hounds are feared creatures for a reason. The fact that their combined strength could, not would, take out Rake says more about Rake than them.

There is a reason why the Elder Gods feared him.

Abberon, on 04 July 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

Next, Karsa Orlong punched Icarium out well before he started keening in rage. Icarium's mind is broken and he sorely underestimated Karsa, but were he actually awakened I think that Karsa would be in a world of trouble.

Unless of course Karsa just thought, that noise is really annoying and broke Iccys neck to make it go away.

From what we see in TCG, Iccy is vulnerable when out cold. The rage seems to be a subconcious trigger but it is not instantaneous (as far as we know).

Abberon, on 04 July 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

If Icarium is such a whirlwind of death and destruction, I can't really understand why the gods wouldn't have stepped in to stop him at some point. We know that Draconus and co. moved in after the Chaining to put an end to Kallor's rule because he killed millions, so wouldn't they, or others, have done the same thing with Icarium?

My answer is that they were either unable to, or were afraid to confront Icarium. Again, we know that the Azath is has captured Gods before, and we know that the Azath is terrified of him and that he's torn them apart before.

In the case of the pantheon, the simple reason why he hasn't been stopped is that they are too afraid to try and stop him and they honestly do not care if he kills a hundred thousand people every couple of centuries. In the case of the more morally sound ascendants like Rake, I think it's a matter of sympathy and practicality.

For the record I think a strong Azath probably could eat him. Just like it could eat a Tyrant Jaghut or a a furious Elder God. It's just dangerous to try. It might get destroyed or it might get a proper hold of him and start siphoning power before he goes nuts... Then again, can an Azath eat chaos, which is what it appears Iccy unleashes?

Seatiger, on 05 July 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

Just been skimming threads and the mention of WhiskeyJack made me think of him a little being the leader of the bridgeburners and a de ranked veteran of the old gaurd I dont thinks hes given as much recognition as others.

I hope I remember correctly I believe people looked to him when laseen took control of the empire and I think based on my own opinion this guy should be just as good as any of the old gaurd were. Had he not had a bum leg he would of faught of Kallor in my opinion.

Hes also someone I believe Erikson just never game as much story to as I would have liked.

WJ was never a part of the Old Guard. I doubt he was ever even a part of the crowd surrounding them. WJ is 40-50 years old... I think... The Old Guard are over a hundred years old. They begain conquering their empire a hundred years ago. Guys like Toc the Elder, Dujek, Duiker, those people were "children" of the Old Guard. WJ has never been mentioned as part of that crowd, he was "just" a commander of the Emperors favorite unit. What ever efficacy he had came from the trip through Raraku, not any prolonged stay in the Deadhouse like the Old Guard.

WJ was never known as a great swordsman or fighter. He was known and loved as a great leader, probably not as brilliant as Dujek, but rather a man who inspired true devotion and pride in his soldiers. People put too much emphasis on the fact that he sparred with Dassem. In my opinion anyway.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

@Apt: Actually TCG implies that Icarium can go in rage mode even while inconscious. Calm was pissing herself at the though that she had wounded him too much.

Also, Icarium isn't a wimp rageless. He moves so fast that Karsa barely intercepts it with his sword and he cuts Karsa's sword like it's not even there. He throws boulders that even a Toblakai stronger than Karsa would have had trouble lifting. he carries arrows that can kill dragons,etc.

[Bonecaster]

Dujek:

Quote

'Whiskeyjack was a superb swordsman...used to spar with Dassem Ultor and it'd take a while for Dassem to get past his guard.'

But, more important than that... If this is not a "Best Swordsman" kind of thread, and we wouldn't take God's powers away, then we have to include Whiskeyjack's greatest weapon. His charisma. People loved him; followed him; died for him. Take him on, and none less than the Bridgeburners, Annomander Rake, and a significant part of the Malazan armed forces are at his side. Unless things are stacked against him, Whiskeyjack can take out Icarium no problem.

Alas, those who did not love him were also pretty powerful. Through betrayal, Kallor took him out, not realizing Hood was intentionally keeping Whiskeyjack weak for just such a moment.

[Abberon]

Pennyapt, on 05 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

First of all, that was GotM.

Second of all, Rake said that the shadowgods might have a chance if the they both attacked him along with the Hound of Shadows.

I take the information as it's given I guess. It doesn't matter to me that it's GotM to me. Cotillon was pre-occupied and maybe he could or maybe he couldn't come back in time to help Shadowthrone. Given how easily Rake dismissed two of the Hounds, you almost have to believe that they'd have negligible impact in a fight.

Pennyapt, on 05 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

Young or Old god, power is power. Shadowthrone had the strength of an entire warren at his disposal, Cots is a very dangerous fighter (as demonstrated in HOC) and the Shadow Hounds are feared creatures for a reason. The fact that their combined strength could, not would, take out Rake says more about Rake than them.

Well Rake is the Son of Darkness and has draconian blood, the warren of darkness and Dragnipur at his disposal. Take away Dragnipur and where is he? We don't really know. All I know is that he made two Hounds of Shadow look like baby rabbits but then felt threatened by Shadowthrone himself.

Pennyapt, on 05 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

There is a reason why the Elder Gods feared him.

Also his sword...

Pennyapt, on 05 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

In the case of the pantheon, the simple reason why he hasn't been stopped is that they are too afraid to try and stop him and they honestly do not care if he kills a hundred thousand people every couple of centuries. In the case of the more morally sound ascendants like Rake, I think it's a matter of sympathy and practicality.

Well the fact that they are too scared to try and stop him says something. The Gods have to care at least somewhat when their worshippers are getting wiped out. If Icarium was laying waste to a whole continent of worshippers, that would affect them would it not, considering how they draw their power from that worship?

Pennyapt, on 05 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

For the record I think a strong Azath probably could eat him. Just like it could eat a Tyrant Jaghut or a a furious Elder God. It's just dangerous to try. It might get destroyed or it might get a proper hold of him and start siphoning power before he goes nuts... Then again, can an Azath eat chaos, which is what it appears Iccy unleashes?

We can't really say. All we know is the Azath fear him and that he's torn at least one apart before that tried and failed to take him.

[Daemonwolf]

Whiskeyjack is a superb swordsman by admission from Dujek. Seeing as Karsa claimed that only a fool would step between rake and traveller, and that traveller and Whiskeyjack used to spar, with Whiskeyjack being able to stand his own ground, I always assumed that whiskeyjack was a far more capable person than some people give credit to.

He back-handed Kallor with a metal gauntlet in MOI and had no worries about standing his ground and being able to put him down, which shows a lot of confidence in his own personal skill with a blade.

Also under his Iskar Jarak personification, he now rules the realms of the dead, and while being a relatively new god he did stare down Olar Ethil. I seem to recall she asked him in TCG or DOD, "you think you can stand against me?" and he merely replied along the lines of "anytime, anyplace" without a single tic of doubt that he could destroy her.

Also he is a member of the old guard, as he remembers surly before even she was a member of the emperor's people, as he states in GOTM "he's not the only one who remembers you as a serving-wench in the old quarter" that's in the prologue.

[Migol]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 05 July 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

@Apt: Actually TCG implies that Icarium can go in rage mode even while unconscious.

This was my impression as well, that while you could plot device eres him into sleep, or knock him out or such, that's just delaying it; any further violence to his unconscious form would re-ignite destruction mode. That seemed to be the case when Icarium was unconscious while they were travelling through the Azath, but suddenly (still unconscious) jerked up and started keening...It's worth noting that many people of power would have probably killed him millennia ago if it was as simple as "catching him while he's sleeping".

With that said, here's my list:

1) Icarium-Again, chaos manifested in an indestructible form.

2) T'iam-Mountain dwarfing dragon goddesses tend to win.

3) Tie: Korabas/Draconus/Rake-It seemed like the overall thought among everyone was that Draconus could -probably- kill Korabas, but might die in the process. I figure him and Rake are tied since their duel went on for over a week; moreover it's hinted that Draconus could have intentionally gone into Dragnipur to slip Kallor's curse eventually (Mael's speech), so Rake may even be a step below.

4) Dassem/Traveler, Brood-Both are "unstoppable" in their particular way, unless they meet up with one of the above (and even then it's not a sure thing).

5) Tie:Silchas, Seguleh 1-3, Cotillon, Kallor...there's just not enough data for any of these guys, but they're known to be supernaturally good at fighting, and aside from the seguleh (who essentially have super speed) have actual supernatural powers (veering, immortal, god, etc).

6) Tie: Gruntle, Cowl, Apsalar, Vorcan, Blues, Topper, Quick Ben-About the same as #5s in that they all have extra-special fighting skills with some supernatural powers thrown in, but decidedly less powerful than the #5s in general.

7) Trull, Spinnok, Iron Bars, Kalam, assorted others-These guys rank with the #6s in terms of combat ability but don't possess magic (Bars aside, and his "hard to kill" isn't so big an advantage as say, warren jumping or veering)

This post has been edited by Migol: 01 August 2011 - 03:34 PM

[Vaddon Ra]

The Darklord, on 27 June 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

this list is based upon my opinion only, so u guys are free to suggestions and your own lists.
and yeah, i forgot yedan derryg.....and kilmandaros.

arranged in descending order of awesomeness and unbeatableness

TOP 25 FIGHTERS IN THE MALAZAN WORLD

1. ICARIUM-------------------------

2. DASSEM ULTOR--------------------

3. ANOMANDER RAKE------------------

4. KARSA ORLONG--------------------

5. COTILLION-----------------------

6. SKINNER-------------------------

7. SEGULEH SECOND------------------

8. COWL----------------------------

9. APSALAR-------------------------

10.SILCHAS RUIN-------------------

11.SHI'GALL GU'RULL---------------

12.KALLOR-------------------------

13.GRUNTLE------------------------

14.MOK----------------------------

15.ONOS TOOL'AN-------------------

16.VORCAN-------------------------

17.BLUES--------------------------

18.BRYS BEDDICT-------------------

19.KALAM MEKHAR-------------------

20.MAPPO RUNT---------------------

21.TRULL SENGAR-------------------

22.IRON BARS----------------------

23.SPINNOCK DURAV-----------------

24.TOPPER-------------------------

25.POSSUM-------------------------




Honorable mentions....

osric......didn't include him becuz we don't see much of his POV in the books.

pust.......halted dejim nebrahl..yeah but with magic.

kilava onass......i forgot her.

the manask fellow

Just a couple of things to add. Trull Sengar? He beat Silchas Ruin and Icarium to a standstill...why is the Knight of Shadow not higher up? Also Topper is better than Cowl, Cowl ran away XD where is Greymane? Greymane only lost to Skinner because to quote, 'That Bastard Cheated. Poisoned his weapons'
Also where's Urko? Damn knocked out Karsa with a fist to the ribs...THE RIBS...and nearly choked Ryllandaras to death
where's Rell? The baddest Renegade Seguleh we've seen yet.

oh and Arguably Mok should be higher. We get the impression that perhaps he was sent on his quest because he was too dangerous to the First. And seeing as the only real level of skill we can compare him to is Tool....and we've not seen Tool against say, Rake or Dassem...well...is it not too much to think that perhaps Tool could be Rake and Dassem's equal? And therefore perhaps Mok is better...just a thought. It seems that SE likes to play with the idea that the time of the Immortals is passing...make way for this mortal generation and look how hard they are. That's what it seemed to me that Tool was saying to Kaliva at the end of MOI

oh and where is Yeddan Deryg? he killed a Forkrul Assail pure without breaking a sweat...something that none of the above have been seen to do at all he should be there...the maniac hust weilding dragon killer )

[Baaljagg]

I'll simply add that I think I'd put Draconus at the top of the list. The reason is that Kilmandaros and Knuckles have a certain conversation

Spoiler

after Draconus is released "There is only one man one man who can kill Draconus, and that man is dead. Anomander" So lets not forget that Draconus killed Kilmandaros in a heartbeat.

This post has been edited by Baaljagg: 26 August 2011 - 05:01 PM

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

1) Anomander Rake is the most dangerous entity in MBotF see his feats here http://forum.malazan...ndpost&p=897231




2) Osserc/Olar Ethil/Icarium/Draconus/Kilmandaros/Mael/Ruin/K'rul/Raest and other Tyrants/Tiam/Brood(with hammer)/Scabandri/Eres'al/Galain Lord/Hood/Gothos/Burn/Fenner/KCCM Matrons/Powerful Eleint




3) Menandore/Lore/Sukul/Spite/Envy/Tays/QB/Silannah/Errant/Eleint/Shadowthrone/Cotillion/Other Gods




4) Rud/Ceda Quru Kan/Sinn/Beak/Loic/Degaroth/Hounds/Karsa/Dassem Ultor/Seguleh 1st/Skinner/Brys Beddict/T'riss/Togg/Fanderay/Forkul Assail/KCCM

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Rake was not cowered by ST/Cot + hounds - it was more the other way round. He was just not underestimating his enemies.

[Blueiron]

Man, I think Icarium should just be left out of these sorts of lists altogether. No one can agree just what he can do, and so we never end up spending enough time talking about how badass other characters are. I for one would like to see more mention of how awesome of Gruntle, Sag'Churok, Apsalar, Cotillion, Iron Bars, or Leoman (admit it, he's a badasshole) are. Just to name a few

Badasshole: n. a person whom one can respect as a badass, yet despise as an asshole

[Azathmaster]

The Darklord, on 27 June 2011 - 10:50 AM, said:

this list is based upon my opinion only, so u guys are free to suggestions and your own lists.
and yeah, i forgot yedan derryg.....and kilmandaros.

arranged in descending order of awesomeness and unbeatableness

TOP 25 FIGHTERS IN THE MALAZAN WORLD

1. ICARIUM-------------------------

2. DASSEM ULTOR--------------------

3. ANOMANDER RAKE------------------

4. KARSA ORLONG--------------------

5. COTILLION-----------------------

6. SKINNER-------------------------

7. SEGULEH SECOND------------------

8. COWL----------------------------

9. APSALAR-------------------------

10.SILCHAS RUIN-------------------

11.SHI'GALL GU'RULL---------------

12.KALLOR-------------------------

13.GRUNTLE------------------------

14.MOK----------------------------

15.ONOS TOOL'AN-------------------

16.VORCAN-------------------------

17.BLUES--------------------------

18.BRYS BEDDICT-------------------

19.KALAM MEKHAR-------------------

20.MAPPO RUNT---------------------

21.TRULL SENGAR-------------------

22.IRON BARS----------------------

23.SPINNOCK DURAV-----------------

24.TOPPER-------------------------

25.POSSUM-------------------------




Honorable mentions....

osric......didn't include him becuz we don't see much of his POV in the books.

pust.......halted dejim nebrahl..yeah but with magic.

kilava onass......i forgot her.

the manask fellow

Temper and Greymane should be in there too... Temper at 13 and greymane at 6

[Vaddon Ra]

in very variable orders

Anomander Rake
Dessembrae
Seguleh 1st/2nd/3rd
Karsa orlong
Icarium
Trull Sengar
Greymane
Silchas Ruin
Cotillion
Laseen
Topper
Cowl
Skinner
Iron Bars
Blues
Stormy
Gesler
Coltaine
Tool
Gruntle
Urko Crust
The First Sword
Yeddan Derryg
Brys Beddict
& HOOD!!!!!!! :DDDD

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Just wanna address one thing because I was randomly thinking about it the other day. TtH spoilers:

Spoiler

Just an alternate possibility as to what happened in the duel between Rake and Dassem that I haven't seen here before that could affect these rankings. Rake had always intended to stab himself after Hood to send himself into the warren. He didn't do it immediately after because he knew the armies of chaos were close to the wagon, and he needed to give Hood and his legions of the dead time to hold them at bay so that he would have time to do what needed to be done.

Killing Dassem would have helped him in this goal because his will is so strong that the armies of chaos would have been pushed even further back. Perhaps ideally Raked had hoped that Dassem would understand why he had to kill Hood, and help guard Dragnipur from the HoL, Dragon Ladies, and whoever else until Brood would be able to get there. Who knows, maybe Rake even thought getting Hood and Dassem to have to work together inside the sword might end Dassem's mad quest for vengeance and stop both Hood and Dassem from eventually destroying each other (Rake did like to think of the big picture).

So Rake starts to fight Dassem. They duel for a little while. At some point, Rake realizes "Holy shit, I can't kill Dassem Ultor while he's wielding Vengeance he's too good!" and then a second later, "Holy shit, if he kills me before I'm able to Dragnipur myself I won't be able to make it to the wagon and free Mother Dark!" (Or at least he won't be able to get from Hood's realm to the battle and the wagon until its too late).

Now he isn't really totally outmatched, just not good enough to win. So he sets up an opportunity for Dassem to knock Dragnipur back into him.

Thus, completing his plan, even thought it wasn't what he had planned originally.

Just wanted to type that up since I had just thought of it, and this seemed like a good thread.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 November 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

Just wanna address one thing because I was randomly thinking about it the other day. TtH spoilers:

Spoiler

Just an alternate possibility as to what happened in the duel between Rake and Dassem that I haven't seen here before that could affect these rankings. Rake had always intended to stab himself after Hood to send himself into the warren. He didn't do it immediately after because he knew the armies of chaos were close to the wagon, and he needed to give Hood and his legions of the dead time to hold them at bay so that he would have time to do what needed to be done.

Killing Dassem would have helped him in this goal because his will is so strong that the armies of chaos would have been pushed even further back. Perhaps ideally Raked had hoped that Dassem would understand why he had to kill Hood, and help guard Dragnipur from the HoL, Dragon Ladies, and whoever else until Brood would be able to get there. Who knows, maybe Rake even thought getting Hood and Dassem to have to work together inside the sword might end Dassem's mad quest for vengeance and stop both Hood and Dassem from eventually destroying each other (Rake did like to think of the big picture).

So Rake starts to fight Dassem. They duel for a little while. At some point, Rake realizes "Holy shit, I can't kill Dassem Ultor while he's wielding Vengeance he's too good!" and then a second later, "Holy shit, if he kills me before I'm able to Dragnipur myself I won't be able to make it to the wagon and free Mother Dark!" (Or at least he won't be able to get from Hood's realm to the battle and the wagon until its too late).

Now he isn't really totally outmatched, just not good enough to win. So he sets up an opportunity for Dassem to knock Dragnipur back into him.

Thus, completing his plan, even thought it wasn't what he had planned originally.

Just wanted to type that up since I had just thought of it, and this seemed like a good thread.

That is one of the weakest theories i've read on the topic. Doesn't make much sense. Sorry.

TTH spoiler

Spoiler

As for why Rake allowed himself to be killed by Dassem -- well for numerous other reasons its obvious -- but he also wanted to break Dassem's desire for vengeance by breaking Dassem's heart. Dassem realised the significance of Rake's sacrifice , and he put things into perspective - he drops his old desire to kill Hood - something Rake wanted him to do. Rake knew of Hoods future significance. Stepping into Rake's shoes along with Draconus as the world's protectors.

That is the reality.

Cheers

[Silk]

ok the last two comments are really flip sides of the same coin to be honest...... one for and one against..... and unless we were actually in both their heads the true answer will always be a matter of personal perspective.

[Use Of Weapons]

Silk, on 19 November 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

ok the last two comments are really flip sides of the same coin to be honest...... one for and one against..... and unless we were actually in both their heads the true answer will always be a matter of personal perspective.

I think not. The comment from ARSoD is far more consistent with the portrayal of Rake in the books up to the end of TTH, and the characterisation of Rake from WJD bears no resemblance to any of the thinking we've seen when we've had a Rake POV. Hardly 'two sides of the same coin.' Just because there is an equal number of people arguing positions doesn't mean that the two positions are equally valid -- that's a logical fallacy.

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

After reading the forums, I'd say, most people support the view that Rake planned things to happen as they happened. There is just far too much evidence to suggest otherwise. I can understand the intent behind fanboy theories, but the conclusions are usually suspect. It's generally a reshaping of the way things are presented to suit their own views.

Cheers