[D'rek]

TCG, hardcover, page 58:

Quote

Ruthan Gudd: "Carrying you? What am I, a Toblakai? No, there's a travois... behind you. Dragging's easier than carrying. Somewhat. Wish I had a dog. When I was a child... well, let's just say what wishing I had a dog has been an unfamiliar experience. But yesterday I'd have cut a god's throat for one single dog."

So, we already know Ruthan Gudd is an Elder Ascendant. From the above quote, it would appear he is one that has had a bad experience with (a) dog(s) as a child. The way he says "for one single dog" makes me think his bad experience was with multiple dogs. So, any ideas of Elder Ascendants who might've encountered or been associated with the Hounds of [Shadow/Light/Darkness] as a child?

[HoosierDaddy]

It strikes me as probably the Deragoth. He was in a Azath around the Kallorian Empire, right? Roughly equal to Dessembelackis' period of time. That's my thought.

[Gust Hubb]

What about that scene at the beginning of TotH where we have those two unnamed characters discussing that dead dog? Any relation to you're query?

[HoosierDaddy]

Gust Hubb, on 18 June 2011 - 03:50 AM, said:

What about that scene at the beginning of TotH where we have those two unnamed characters discussing that dead dog? Any relation to you're query?

1. They were dead, and it was setting the scene for the later convergence. And they were dead.
2. SE has said those two people didn't matter, I'm pretty sure. Just random viewers to a meeting between Rake, Hood, and I think Shadowthrone.

[Ceda Cicero]

D, on 18 June 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

TCG, hardcover, page 58:

Quote

Ruthan Gudd: "Carrying you? What am I, a Toblakai? No, there's a travois... behind you. Dragging's easier than carrying. Somewhat. Wish I had a dog. When I was a child... well, let's just say what wishing I had a dog has been an unfamiliar experience. But yesterday I'd have cut a god's throat for one single dog."

So, we already know Ruthan Gudd is an Elder Ascendant. From the above quote, it would appear he is one that has had a bad experience with (a) dog(s) as a child. The way he says "for one single dog" makes me think his bad experience was with multiple dogs. So, any ideas of Elder Ascendants who might've encountered or been associated with the Hounds of [Shadow/Light/Darkness] as a child?

Deragoth would seem most likely to me as well, but other than that, I have absolutely no idea. If there is some connection between Ruthan and the Deragoth, then hopefully that will mean if he gets revisited in later SE/ICE books (I think ICE is more probable at this point) then maybe the Deragoth will as well. Which would be nice, since I've always thought they were way too front and center for a while there - and more, their histories way too tied up in way too many other things (Dark, the Eres, Dessimbelackis) - to just vanish the way they did for good.

Also, repped D'rek for a cool little find I never would've picked up on.

[LordofTheFallen]

As mentioned the only known "dogs" would be the Hounds. That said, he could have had a run in with Dessimbelackis and the Deragoth, (can't remember if he became them or was just their master) Tulas Shorn and the Hounds of Shadow, (Shorn was around at the same time as Silchas Ruin so he would fit into the timeline, hell, maybe it was Gudd who killed him...) Or the hounds of light and their unknown master, which was probably some Tiste Liosan or another, since they commanded them in the battle of the First Shore.

[worry]

Well, there's also just regular dogs. Maybe he wanted a chihuahua, but those things can be pretty vicious. Not as bad as Roach perhaps, but some approach it.

[LordofTheFallen]

I have to say, I can't picture him walking into his home sheethed in his armor and being greeted by a cowering chihuahua sitting next to a piss-stained carpet. I don't know, it just doesn't seem to fit the lifestyle of an ascendant. (then again, raest wanted an undead cat so I guess anything is possible.

[nacht]

Quote

As one, the undead warriors bowed to the captain. One spoke. ‘We greet you, Elder.’ Gudd’s second curse was in a language Masan Gilani had never heard before.

He is an elder god, so he predates the Deragoth and Dissembelackis

[nacht]

D'rek mgiht be onto something here.

From HoC

Quote

Osric halted and faced his son once more. ‘The Hounds of Darkness. The seven beasts that Dessimbelackis made pact with—and oh, weren’t the Nameless Ones shaken by that unholy alliance? The seven beasts, L’oric, that gave the name to Seven Cities, although no memory survives of that particular truth. The Seven Holy Cities of our time are not the original ones, of course. Only the number has survived.’ L’oric closed his eyes and leaned his head back against the damp stone wall. ‘Deragoth. What happened to them? Why are they here and not there?’ ‘I don’t know. Probably it had something to do with the violent collapse of the First Empire.’

...
‘What of those half-humans that ran with these Deragoth?’ ‘A quaint reversal, wouldn’t you say? The Deragoth’s only act of domestication. Most scholars, in their species-bound arrogance, believe that humans domesticated dogs, but it may well have been the other way round, at least to start. Who ran with whom?’ ‘But those creatures aren’t humans. They’re not even Imass.’ ‘No, but they will be, one day. I’ve seen others, scampering on the edges of wolf packs. Standing upright gives them better vision, a valuable asset to complement the wolves’ superior hearing and sense of smell. A formidable combination, but the wolves are the ones in charge. That will eventually change…but not for those serving the Deragoth, I suspect.’ ‘Why?’ ‘Because something is about to happen. Here, in this trapped memory. I only hope that I will be privileged to witness it before the world fades entirely.’ ‘You called the Deragoth “Hounds of Darkness”. Are they children of Mother Dark, then?’ ‘They are no-one’s children,’ Osric growled, then he shook his head. ‘They have that stench about them, but in truth I have no idea. It just seemed an appropriate name. “Deragoth” in the Tiste Andii tongue.’ ‘Well,’ L’oric muttered, ‘actually, it would be Dera’tin’jeragoth.’

Maybe Ruthan was one of these early sub-humans, who escaped from the Wolves domestication.

[Abyss]

As a starting point, aboriginal tribes around the world used dogs to pull travois', long before horses or other beasts of burden were domesticated, iirc, so this could just be a ref to Gudd's beinbg way way old.

nacht, on 12 July 2011 - 01:54 AM, said:

Quote

As one, the undead warriors bowed to the captain. One spoke. 'We greet you, Elder.' Gudd's second curse was in a language Masan Gilani had never heard before.

He is an elder god, so he predates the Deragoth and Dissembelackis

Not that i'm suggesting we should believe him, but he later says he's just the unfortunate child of an Elder God, not one himself.
Point being, while he's clearly old, and may have been interred at some point in the Azath that Iccy shattered or the other one Osserc broke, he's not necessarily THAT old.

Tho he could be.

nacht, on 12 July 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

...Maybe Ruthan was one of these early sub-humans, who escaped from the Wolves domestication.

Cool theory, and doesn't necessarily contradict the 'child of an EG' theory.

[LordofTheFallen]

If he is an Elder God, or the son of one, it may be pretty hard to stick a lable on him.
First, we all think he is most likely associated with the Stormriders, on account of their armor. But we know nothing of their society and beliefs, so if he is a stormrider god/ascendant then he won't really be explainable unless a book is written about the SR.

Second, in terms of a son of an elder god, he's deffinately aspected to ice or something, and Hood sat on the Throne of Ice, but Gudd is definately not Jaghut. Since we don't know the timeline of the Ice Throne and Hood (at best we know that it went downhill when Hood had it and had something to do with the war on death) Gudd may very well be the son of whoever held the Throne of Ice before Hood. Or even after, if it was still around when Hood ditched it for the Throne of Death. It may have been Gudd himself who held it, but that would have made him ancient.

[Silk]

and he is seemingly still trying to come to turns with his new body..... so who knows... he could be anyone and anything.... well maybe not wolverine.....Chuck maybe

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ruthan Gudd was friend and serving officer with Greymane who led the Korel campaign and at one point made a treaty with the Stormriders. It's probable that's when Gudd got his sword and armor. So,he's not naturally linked with ice.

[LordofTheFallen]

That could make sense. Greymane got the Sword and Gudd got the armor. But it still doesn't explain who or what he is.

[Abyss]

correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Gudd's ice armour come from his sword?

[LordofTheFallen]

You may very well be right.
What I meant from my comment was that Greymane gets the huge sword that can destroy everything and seemingly disapear and reapear at GM's whim.
Gudd got the one that equiped him with the full armor set.

[Ceda Cicero]

Re: Gudd's sword, he also implies that it's at least partially sentient. When the KCNR show up it starts going all apeshit and, IIRC, he looks at the sword and says "She answers" or something along those lines.

[worry]

If the Stormriders are Liosan in origin -- or any kind of Tiste I guess -- and they have a semi-sentient magical sword of some sort, it could be a related magic-technology to that of the Hust swords. SE has done a pretty good job of not making too big a deal out of magic swords and stuff, but they're in there, and there's bound to be some ancient types we haven't much seen.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 12 July 2011 - 09:43 PM

[Sanctume]

Gudd mentioned that his ice armor was borrowed. It's possible Greymane gave/indefinite loan him the armor.

I'm imagining in a gaming session.
GM: Ok Greymane, you receive an uber stone sword, and a Storm Rider armor.
Gudd: I want loot!
Greymane: I want the sword, it's uber. You can borrow the ice armor.

Gudd: Cool!

This post has been edited by Sanctume: 12 July 2011 - 11:12 PM