[Abyss]

For all we know, Rell's comment could just be context, and there could be other bodies within the Agatii, by example, the 'Top Ten'.

[Whiskey Bass]

Rooster, on 09 June 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:

Abyss, on 09 June 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:

But we know from MoI and elsewhere that to rise in at least the top tier, you have to defeat the person higher than you.

So actually, the strongest fighters ARE the highest ranked, 'strongest' being a general term to describe 'kicked the other person's butt', be it by smarts, speed or just walloping the crap out of them with a sharp object.

Yes. In a duel that we know none of the rules to. It may be judged similarly to high level Japanese fencing where how you fight (honour, attitude, style, whatever) is more important than whether you "won". Rell being forbidden to carry a sword because of his attitude (pretty sure this is why he chose to go into exile, may be remembering wrong) certainly counts in favour of the Seguleh valuing honour above pure fighting prowess, I don't see why that wouldn't be reflected in how they are ranked.

All speculation of course. Either way could be right or wrong, until Steven or ICE go into more detail on the Seguleh we won't know.

at the higher echelons of Kendo 7th, 8th dan, such skills as:-
drawing the sword,
the exact timing of the attack or block,
the technique decided on and
the application of that technique,
correct stances and movement
and correct mental attitude

i saw a 88 year old man attempt to gain 8th dan for the 4th time, he flew through the gruelling grading, but in the final bout failed, due to a strike that wasnt deemed to be quite as clean as his 42 year old opponent,
the other guy trying was a two or three time national kendo champ, he passed because his mental attitude was judged best, he waited for his opponent to lose patience and attack before he executed an aggressive block/strike all in one motion.

This post has been edited by j2tks: 05 August 2011 - 01:27 AM

[tiam]

D, on 11 June 2011 - 03:37 AM, said:

If the Agatii is the "highest martial body of [the Seguleh]", and the term "The Thousand" is an accurate name for it, then there are a thousand members of the Agatii. So, for someone who is 850th in the thousand, there are 849 others with a higher rank. So if the 850th challenges the 849th (though I'm sure they can skip the numbers at the lower Agatii levels if they're confident enough) then there are plenty of much-higher ranked Seguleh to be judges of the duel. This is what I think the level at which "blood was rarely spilled" was. But, for those in the top 20, 30 maybe even top 50, there are not only very few above them in rank, but also those above them might not be that much better than them. So at the very high ranks is where I think the duels are lethal or at least often have blood spilled.

I also believe that duels with those who are not part of the Agatii are handled differently. The Seguleh Iron Bars faced was the lowest-ranked of her whole ship, but Iron Bars killing her got him into the Agatii, so she likely was a low-ranked Agatii. Since he was not of the Agatii, they dueled to the death, but once he won Oru said he was now Iron Bars' mentor/sponsor/thingy, so perhaps it was Oru's job then to explain the rules of the Agatii to Iron Bars, and likewise the Seguleh's argument with Rake is them trying to outline his role within the Agatii and such.

This seems right. One of the problems is age. Say Rell was a teenager during his limited time in the Agatii. Its possible that only those over 20 were usually in the Agatii thus explaining the age comment. If I remember Mok, Thrule and Senu are 3rd, 7th and 11th respectively but Senu is only 14 years old which throws a spanner in the works for the age thing unless Rell was like 8 years old and got into the Agatii. Theres also a quote that now I think about it might be when Envy and Krul are talking in Callows that mentions Krul or Envy thought the Seguleh First would send 400 14th level initiates rather than the Third. If ive remembered this right and I might not have that means that some ranks can be held by multiple people though the top ten may only be held by one person.

This makes sort of sense where you have to defeat A 57th rank rather than THE 57th rank and explains why the Seguleh population seems to be only a few thousand despite their island being quite large. However this means the Agatii has to be read as the top thousand ranks rather than the top 1000 swordsmen which clashes with Iron Bars quote.

Very rambly Ill rephrase it later.

This post has been edited by tiam: 05 August 2011 - 10:33 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

Um, I didn't think Senu was that highly placed. IIRC, Mok says Thurule is the 11th, but no mention is ever made of Senu's rank that I can recall. Is this from another source?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hm,no. Senu said he was an initiate of Eleventh Level not the Eleventh.

I believe Mok was the only one ranked.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 05 August 2011 - 03:33 PM

[tiam]

Sorry I was just about to comment that I was wrong. Senu was an 11th level initiate. We can safely assume then that there are ranks below the Agatii and above the status of Blackmasks which explains how Rell could be the same age as Senu yet still be in the Agatii. Im rereading MOI but havnt come across Thurules rank yet but 11th only rings a bell with Senu. In any case the quote I was looking for p.326 of the MMPB is as I thought Krul and Envy in Callows and reads

Krul- 'I had expected the First to send three or four hundred 11th level initiates'

So we can assume that 11th level initiates are reasonably close to entering the Agatii but far enough away that Rell considered it a great honour for him to be part of it. Also it was quite rare according to Rell. My original idea of people holding the same ranks seems to only apply for those ranked outside the Agatii. This also explains the Seguleh population as initiates can hold the same ranks but the Agatii cannot though im sure you can leap frog positions otherwise everyone would be stuck at 7th because of Rake.

From this I can assume that Rell was in the 900s rather than some people believing he was a top ten Seguleh. This doesnt necessarily clash with the extent of his prowess as Senu is a force in MOI.

[D'rek]

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 08 August 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

Sorry I was just about to comment that I was wrong. Senu was an 11th level initiate. We can safely assume then that there are ranks below the Agatii and above the status of Blackmasks which explains how Rell could be the same age as Senu yet still be in the Agatii. Im rereading MOI but havnt come across Thurules rank yet but 11th only rings a bell with Senu. In any case the quote I was looking for p.326 of the MMPB is as I thought Krul and Envy in Callows and reads

Krul- 'I had expected the First to send three or four hundred 11th level initiates'

So we can assume that 11th level initiates are reasonably close to entering the Agatii but far enough away that Rell considered it a great honour for him to be part of it. Also it was quite rare according to Rell. My original idea of people holding the same ranks seems to only apply for those ranked outside the Agatii. This also explains the Seguleh population as initiates can hold the same ranks but the Agatii cannot though im sure you can leap frog positions otherwise everyone would be stuck at 7th because of Rake.

From this I can assume that Rell was in the 900s rather than some people believing he was a top ten Seguleh. This doesnt necessarily clash with the extent of his prowess as Senu is a force in MOI.

IMO, I would expect that the Initiate levels are part of an overall schooling in the martial arts. As such, it generally takes time to go through all the education of all the levels, unless exceptions are made for an extremely talented student. Rell was probably such a case and went through the Initiate levels faster than usual, so he was young when he passed the highest Initiate level and was able to enter the Agatii.

That's how I see it anyways.

I don't think it is ever said what rank/level/etc Thurulu had, but there might've been a description of his mask, which might give us an idea. Then again, the lower-leveled Agatii (assuming there's really 1000 of them) would have a mask with up to 999 marks on them... no reason those marks might not be stylized into a pattern so if Thurule has a patterned mask that doesn't necessarily mean he's not Agatii, either. There's also mention of his age somewhere, I think, and if he's more than a couple years older than Senu I'd expect Thurule has surpassed the Initiate levels - Senu was damn good, therefore Initiate XXI is probably pretty close to graduation.

[sting01]

Abyss, on 08 June 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:

When Rell tells Hurl how he was exiled, it's maybe hinted that he was part of the top 1000, but his ranking is never stated and he never wore a mask.

My reflex is to think he's top 20 based on fighting Ryllandaras repeatedly and not ending up as Jackal-poo, but in MoI we saw an 'initiate so not even ranked, keep up with his ranked brother and the two of them support the Third, so it appears even low ranked Seguleh are pretty impressive.

in my youth, in the 70', I had the honor to be sparing partner of several top ranked french judoka (Rouget, Coche, Albertini, Pourchet).

While the first 2 of them were on top 5 at that time, the third was simply an honest international judoka, the fourth and last being a 'mere' top 10 national and main coach for the french team.

That to say, to me and as sparring partner of those guys, it was no difference at all! I could not dream to stand more than 20 secs when confronting any one of them.

So maybe that is the same with seguleh, they are that good for the servum pecus that their own ranking is irrelevant when confronted with normal swordman