[QuickTidal]

Drek is right, I'm usually on CrunchyRoll free and the ads can be annoying, but not overly so and the quality is standard...there is also a big selection on Netflix and iTunes.

I'm doing PSYCHO PASS, KILL LA KILL (which so far is utterly mental!), and STEINS;GATE. All on Netflix.

Considering Checking out DURARARA!!! as you all seem to be crowing about it. Good?

[LinearPhilosopher]

The Hust Legion, on 01 January 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

they remade fate stay night and its just finished this week. the animation is pretty damn cool. although i preferred the sequel fate zero . and i use CHIA anime not HD or anything but does the trick.

actualy fate zero is the prequel

[D'rek]

BalrogLord, on 01 January 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

The Hust Legion, on 01 January 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

they remade fate stay night and its just finished this week. the animation is pretty damn cool. although i preferred the sequel fate zero . and i use CHIA anime not HD or anything but does the trick.

actualy fate zero is the prequel

and it is only the first half of the remake that just finished. The second half will air in April-June.

[D'rek]

QuickTidal, on 01 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Considering Checking out DURARARA!!! as you all seem to be crowing about it. Good?

It is indeed good, though it is probably not everyone's cup of tea. Same writer of the original novels and same studio doing the adaptation as Baccano! if you have seen that, and the style is similar. Like Baccano! the anime has a bit of a problem that it is just one season so they can't cover all the novels, but the novels have lots of things put into the first couple novels that are really more like setup for things much later down the line. So some characters don't end up being as important as they first seem like they will be, and some plotlines get more focus/resolution than others (of course with them finally making a season 2 starting very soon, that's not as much of an issue!).

It also suffers a bit in that the secondary characters are arguably a lot more interesting than three of the four main characters, so it kind of sucks to focus on the high school kids sometimes, especially at the start. But the plotlines get more complex and interesting for everyone if you give it time.

Definitely worth checking out the first couple episodes and seeing how you like it.


Also, the english dub is really good. However, there's a lot of Japanese text, which some sources I was watching it on only subtitled the text in the subbed version and not in the dubs, which was annoying (except all the chatroom parts, which the english dub speak aloud so that part doesn't matter). If you have a dubbed source that subtitles most of the text, then either sub or dub are equally good.

[The Hust Legion]

QuickTidal, on 01 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Drek is right, I'm usually on CrunchyRoll free and the ads can be annoying, but not overly so and the quality is standard...there is also a big selection on Netflix and iTunes.

I'm doing PSYCHO PASS, KILL LA KILL (which so far is utterly mental!), and STEINS;GATE. All on Netflix.

Considering Checking out DURARARA!!! as you all seem to be crowing about it. Good?

how is kill la kill? i wanna watch it but the effort of starting a new series is stopping me.

[QuickTidal]

The Hust Legion, on 01 January 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 01 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Drek is right, I'm usually on CrunchyRoll free and the ads can be annoying, but not overly so and the quality is standard...there is also a big selection on Netflix and iTunes.

I'm doing PSYCHO PASS, KILL LA KILL (which so far is utterly mental!), and STEINS;GATE. All on Netflix.

Considering Checking out DURARARA!!! as you all seem to be crowing about it. Good?

how is kill la kill? i wanna watch it but the effort of starting a new series is stopping me.

So far it's completely insane in a good way. It's got fanservicey nudity (which is actually not fan service as its plot concered)...but yeah it's just bonkers and I can't help but enjoy it!

EDIT: the nudity is also played up for comedy. And it's doll nudity...all smooth.

If you can get past that factor, it's got good world building and a wicked pace.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 02 January 2015 - 12:17 AM

[The Hust Legion]

QuickTidal, on 01 January 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

The Hust Legion, on 01 January 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 01 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Drek is right, I'm usually on CrunchyRoll free and the ads can be annoying, but not overly so and the quality is standard...there is also a big selection on Netflix and iTunes.

I'm doing PSYCHO PASS, KILL LA KILL (which so far is utterly mental!), and STEINS;GATE. All on Netflix.

Considering Checking out DURARARA!!! as you all seem to be crowing about it. Good?

how is kill la kill? i wanna watch it but the effort of starting a new series is stopping me.

So far it's completely insane in a good way. It's got fanservicey nudity (which is actually not fan service as its plot concered)...but yeah it's just bonkers and I can't help but enjoy it!

EDIT: the nudity is also played up for comedy. And it's doll nudity...all smooth.

If you can get past that factor, it's got good world building and a wicked pace.

i took the plunge and just started it and yes at first i was like WOAH WHERE WHAT WHY at that suit and its fan service . but the comedy produced from it is pretty funny. episode 4 atm going good so far its completely different to akame ga kill

[Nicodimas]

Really enjoying the Irregular at Magic High School..been powerwatching this all day!

[Dolmen 2.0]

So I had a talk with another forum member and thought I'd field the question here:

What are the top "must-see" Seinen animes and why? Not judging in terms of popularity but in terms of mind-blowingly raw narrative.

We're talking anime that genuinely engages the higher levels of adult thought.

Berserk for example is quite unique, literally revolving around anti-heroes with hideous personality flaws. I think a fifteen year old would struggle to watch Berserk, not just for the grisly content but also because it demands a very advanced interpretation of morality and ethics, the failures of human nature and our baser instincts. You need a fairly mature perspective to take in what goes on because as a teenager you really haven't explored all the dark and dusty corners of your psyche.

Spoiler

The fact that Guts rises so high and Griffith falls so far so fast hits hard. Their role reversals and inversals set the themes of Good and Evil on their head. Everything moral is explored in gritty detail, humanities ugly side in the face of despair is the most horrific part at the anime ending. If you place yourself in the shoes of either the protagonist or the Antagonist you get consumed by the emotions the characters experience.

Now I can think of precious few anime operating at that level.

Maybe Ghost in the Shell, Code Gaess, Death note, Shinsekai Yori?

I'd hesitate to say Attack on Titan as its ongoing and while scenes are dark the content still feels relatively straight forward. I'm sure they go round the bend later on.

Wolfen Crest Manga kinda over does it almost. Several others come to mind but I'd like to hear from you guys on Seinen in general. Which ones stand out in terms of their effect on you as an individual?

[D'rek]

Dolmen 2.0, on 02 January 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

So I had a talk with another forum member and thought I'd field the question here:

What are the top "must-see" Seinen animes and why? Not judging in terms of popularity but in terms of mind-blowingly raw narrative.

We're talking anime that genuinely engages the higher levels of adult thought.

Berserk for example is quite unique, literally revolving around anti-heroes with hideous personality flaws. I think a fifteen year old would struggle to watch Berserk, not just for the grisly content but also because it demands a very advanced interpretation of morality and ethics, the failures of human nature and our baser instincts. You need a fairly mature perspective to take in what goes on because as a teenager you really haven't explored all the dark and dusty corners of your psyche.

Spoiler

The fact that Guts rises so high and Griffith falls so far so fast hits hard. Their role reversals and inversals set the themes of Good and Evil on their head. Everything moral is explored in gritty detail, humanities ugly side in the face of despair is the most horrific part at the anime ending. If you place yourself in the shoes of either the protagonist or the Antagonist you get consumed by the emotions the characters experience.

Now I can think of precious few anime operating at that level.

Maybe Ghost in the Shell, Code Gaess, Death note, Shinsekai Yori?

I'd hesitate to say Attack on Titan as its ongoing and while scenes are dark the content still feels relatively straight forward. I'm sure they go round the bend later on.

Wolfen Crest Manga kinda over does it almost. Several others come to mind but I'd like to hear from you guys on Seinen in general. Which ones stand out in terms of their effect on you as an individual?

How do you really decide what is and isn't Seinen, though, other than what magazine the original manga was published in, or whatnot? I mean, officially Shonen is for young/teen boys and Seinen is for adult men, right (and Shojo/Josei for girls/women)? But take something like FLCL and while it is about a young boy and silly space robot battles, the subtext and themes are extremely adult and I doubt any young boy would really "get" it.

How do you decide what counts as 'adult' and what does not? As you said, Attack on Titan gets pretty dark and gory at times... threats of mass extinction are no light matter. But other than that it is basically Shonen and most people would call it as such. Future Diary is a super tropey Shonen plot - teenage boy gets special powers and enters deathmatch with at least one high school classmate - but it is not only very gory but also very sinister at times and probably wouldn't be all that appropriate for young people. And then on the flip side something like Terror in Resonance, Death Note, GitS, Evangelion, etc don't have tons of 'adult' content like gore/nudity/etc, but their topics are probably too complex for most 12 year-olds.

So what are you really after here? Or is it more that you don't care why it's Seinen, as long as something (anything) makes it more adult-oriented and you want the ones of those that make the most lasting impressions?

[Dolmen 2.0]

D, on 02 January 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Dolmen 2.0, on 02 January 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

So I had a talk with another forum member and thought I'd field the question here:

What are the top "must-see" Seinen animes and why? Not judging in terms of popularity but in terms of mind-blowingly raw narrative.

We're talking anime that genuinely engages the higher levels of adult thought.

Berserk for example is quite unique, literally revolving around anti-heroes with hideous personality flaws. I think a fifteen year old would struggle to watch Berserk, not just for the grisly content but also because it demands a very advanced interpretation of morality and ethics, the failures of human nature and our baser instincts. You need a fairly mature perspective to take in what goes on because as a teenager you really haven't explored all the dark and dusty corners of your psyche.

Spoiler

The fact that Guts rises so high and Griffith falls so far so fast hits hard. Their role reversals and inversals set the themes of Good and Evil on their head. Everything moral is explored in gritty detail, humanities ugly side in the face of despair is the most horrific part at the anime ending. If you place yourself in the shoes of either the protagonist or the Antagonist you get consumed by the emotions the characters experience.

Now I can think of precious few anime operating at that level.

Maybe Ghost in the Shell, Code Gaess, Death note, Shinsekai Yori?

I'd hesitate to say Attack on Titan as its ongoing and while scenes are dark the content still feels relatively straight forward. I'm sure they go round the bend later on.

Wolfen Crest Manga kinda over does it almost. Several others come to mind but I'd like to hear from you guys on Seinen in general. Which ones stand out in terms of their effect on you as an individual?

How do you really decide what is and isn't Seinen, though, other than what magazine the original manga was published in, or whatnot? I mean, officially Shonen is for young/teen boys and Seinen is for adult men, right (and Shojo/Josei for girls/women)? But take something like FLCL and while it is about a young boy and silly space robot battles, the subtext and themes are extremely adult and I doubt any young boy would really "get" it.

How do you decide what counts as 'adult' and what does not? As you said, Attack on Titan gets pretty dark and gory at times... threats of mass extinction are no light matter. But other than that it is basically Shonen and most people would call it as such. Future Diary is a super tropey Shonen plot - teenage boy gets special powers and enters deathmatch with at least one high school classmate - but it is not only very gory but also very sinister at times and probably wouldn't be all that appropriate for young people. And then on the flip side something like Terror in Resonance, Death Note, GitS, Evangelion, etc don't have tons of 'adult' content like gore/nudity/etc, but their topics are probably too complex for most 12 year-olds.

So what are you really after here? Or is it more that you don't care why it's Seinen, as long as something (anything) makes it more adult-oriented and you want the ones of those that make the most lasting impressions?

Yep, I agree. Seinen/Josei are hard to pin down. Official description is based on target market. If the writers set the plot aimed at kids theres a lighthearted aspect to it, usually its colours and voice exaggeration. Culturally Japanese teenage boys and girls are quite candid about issues of sex and violence (or so I am informed, I could be wrong). Shows like FLCL and Attack on Titan definitely fall into the Boy against the world Trope regardless of the dark theme but that really doesn't matter to me. If theres a seinenesque quality to the story then I think it qualifies.

I think another problem is that anime evolves over time. Characters grow up and deal with heavier issues the further an anime goes. Kid characters tend to grow into adults, carrying traumas both physical and psychological. I think the Genres do tend to blend together even further because of this, that's why I think it's too early to say on shows like Shingeki no Kyojin.

So to return to your question, What am I after? I'd say I'm after favourable opinions on Anime that deal with Adult-oriented issues and a complex character development and story(preferably Seinen but not exclusively). Grey plots are key with real consequences that don't Have clear Good-guys vs Bad-guys ALA Tokyo Ghoul. Plots that don't simply revolve around simple overarching solutions but end with you questioning aspects of yourself as an adult individual afterwards.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 02 January 2015 - 10:19 PM

[D'rek]

Quote

but end with you questioning aspects of yourself as an adult individual afterwards.

Certainly ^^this is no easy feat. Some of these may fit the bill for that sort of thing, but on the other hand just because a character has to re-evaluate their personality/beliefs doesn't mean that the viewer will.



Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (you mentioned GitS up-thread, but there's lots of GitS so just double-checking)


Baccano!
Durarara!!
Both of these shows are done by the same author and anime studio. They both feature a big cast of characters, each with their own weird personalities. There's not really any "good guys" amongst the bunch - it's usually just lots of bad or morally ambiguous people getting into conflict with others. Baccano's cast, especially, is pretty much 100% gangsters/thieves/assassins/mafiosa, some are just nicer or more honourable than others (and then they go ahead and do a dishonourable thing!). These are the kind of shows where thugs can have Malazan-esque philosophical monologues spoken aloud explaining why they feel detached from morality while they kill someone. Durarara!! is a bit of a flip on Baccano in that most of the characters seem pretty nice when you first meet them but everyone is hiding their own secrets.


Hellgirl - it's an episodic show, so you won't get any major moral development, but each episode is basically showcasing some terrible people, and asking you if you would sentence them to hell or if you could resist and keep trying (and failing) deal with things mundanely.


FLCL - metaphoric teenage puberty subtext exploration


Paranoia Agent (Mousou Dairinin) - not entirely sure on this one, might be more of a surreal experience than a moral questioning

For that matter, anything else by Satoshi Kon might fit (Paprika, Perfect Blue, Tokyo Godfathers)


Terror in Resonance (Zankyou no Terror) - It's about two government-experiment child survivors who escaped becoming good-natured terrorists who blow up buildings. Sounds more morally ambiguous than it really is though, the protaganists are essentially good guys (risking exposing themselves when their plans to blow up empty buildings risk hurting someone) and after a few episodes a new antagonist comes in until near the end that makes things a bit too close to good-vs-bad.


Fate/Zero
Future Diary (Mirai Nikki)
Both of these are "people in a magic deathmatch" tropey shonen setups. Both of them have protagonists that are not exactly pure of heart, and some of their competition is arguably better. (In Future Diary, the main protaganist is {unfortunately} a tropey shy high school boy {who eventually grows out of it a bit, thankfully} but his accomplice-blackmail-girlfriend is a psychopath. In Fate/Zero two of the main-est characters {it's hard to say who exactly is the true protagonist of F/Z} are essentially career assassins.) It's hard to say if these are really adult enough... let's just say they are more complex/adult takes on the shonen deathmatch trope, as well as good shows in their own right. F/Z especially has a nice ethical question posed at the climax of the show that can resonate with the audience quite a bit.



Others I haven't personally watched but heard that they would fit what you are looking for:

Monster
Cat Soup
Eden of the East
House of Five Leaves
Wolf Brigade

[Kaamos]

Hi guys, I'm the "other forum member" Dolmen refers to. :-D Thanks for the recs! While far outside the perimeter of the target audience, I've just noticed that most of my anime favorites apart from Miyazaki fall within the seinen genre, such as Hellsing, Ghost in the Shell, Gankutsuou, and Satoshi Kon productions. Someone enjoying gritty fantasy/sf is bound to search for similar aspects in other media (flawed characters, exploring the gray areas of humanity...).
I'm also looking for grown-up oriented anime featuring strong female characters. Is it just me, or does finding these require an army of sniffer dogs and a metal detector? O_o

[D'rek]

Kaamos, on 02 January 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'm also looking for grown-up oriented anime featuring strong female characters. Is it just me, or does finding these require an army of sniffer dogs and a metal detector? O_o

Well said, a minefiled is just about the perfect analogy. You never know when a seemingly-alright show will suddenly drop all the clothes off all its women

And of course, strong/well-portrayed female characters isn't the same as female protagonists... I can think of a lot of shows where the female characters are just as human, 3-dimensional and varied as the men, but the focus, character development and plot progression still be on the part of the men.

There's a whole ton of Josei-romance out there, of course, but I can't think of any I've seen that I actually *liked* all that much (maybe it is just the adaptations, but I always seem to find Josei-romance so boring, mostly because they'll take like 20 episodes to cover what could have been done in 5 and/or desperately need more twists/challenges/interaction/etc... basically I find Josei-romance anime to all be like Japanese Pride and Prejudice... hmm I wonder if there exists a P&P anime yet...).

Anyways, two recommendations I can offer that might interest you in this category are Aria (pseudo-episodic Slice of Life stuff about "gondoling" on Mars) and Read or Die (basically a minor-superpower shonen with a big book theme, with 2 out of 3 of the OVA main characters being well-depicted women and 5 out of 7 or so of the main characters in the TV series {watch the OVA first, and if you like it give the TV a try after}).

[Dolmen 2.0]

@Kaamos: Keep telling you Claymore is the be all and end all of that subject! Theres also:

Caanan; Black Lagoon: Robertas Blood Trial and ofcourse Jormungand. All of which are Seinen with strong female leads/Support characters. Ghost in the Shell would be the benchmark on all of them and as D'rek has already mentioned its had several approaches giving The Major a new layer of agency the further they go along with the core plot.

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Quote

but end with you questioning aspects of yourself as an adult individual afterwards.

Certainly ^^this is no easy feat. Some of these may fit the bill for that sort of thing, but on the other hand just because a character has to re-evaluate their personality/beliefs doesn't mean that the viewer will.

Quote

Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (you mentioned GitS up-thread, but there's lots of GitS so just double-checking)

Tripple Check, definitive Seinen with some of the most complex plot structures I've ever viewed. Like the Malazan books, each rewatch kinda broadens your understanding of goings on and gives you a better idea of what the Major actually is, Which is to say a majorly abstract personality. At the end of each series I've sat and wondered about all things existential. definately a Seinen worth watching.

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Baccano!
Durarara!!
Both of these shows are done by the same author and anime studio. They both feature a big cast of characters, each with their own weird personalities. There's not really any "good guys" amongst the bunch - it's usually just lots of bad or morally ambiguous people getting into conflict with others. Baccano's cast, especially, is pretty much 100% gangsters/thieves/assassins/mafiosa, some are just nicer or more honourable than others (and then they go ahead and do a dishonourable thing!). These are the kind of shows where thugs can have Malazan-esque philosophical monologues spoken aloud explaining why they feel detached from morality while they kill someone. Durarara!! is a bit of a flip on Baccano in that most of the characters seem pretty nice when you first meet them but everyone is hiding their own secrets.

I Love both of these. When I explain the two "biggest personalities" I talk about "Railtracer" and "Saika". Both are really extreme and kind of terrifying. Despite this You cant help root for them and their twisted agenda because at the heart of it all we all want Railtracers ridiculous self confidence and Saikas ridiculous self control. and these two just represent a fraction of the interest both casts have to offer. Good Seinen and personal favourites of mine aswell, more Durrara than Baccano plot-wise.

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Hellgirl - it's an episodic show, so you won't get any major moral development, but each episode is basically showcasing some terrible people, and asking you if you would sentence them to hell or if you could resist and keep trying (and failing) deal with things mundanely.

Sadly have not Watched This. Sounds excellent.

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

FLCL - metaphoric teenage puberty subtext exploration

Lol Yes, because the horn is a metaphor for his...Horn. Metaphor gets a bit fuzzy towards the ending but I think I get where you're coming from. Am I the only one that found it too brief?

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Paranoia Agent (Mousou Dairinin) - not entirely sure on this one, might be more of a surreal experience than a moral questioning

For that matter, anything else by Satoshi Kon might fit (Paprika, Perfect Blue, Tokyo Godfathers)

Huge Trip. I watched it on Animax and the Dub was extra surreal as faces and voice emotion didn't quite mesh at times. While its definitely Seinen. I didn't take to the story that much. felt like they could have taken an easier route to the conclusion and certain parts were purely a commentary on the life of a Mangaka/ Anime Production team.

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Terror in Resonance (Zankyou no Terror) - It's about two government-experiment child survivors who escaped becoming good-natured terrorists who blow up buildings. Sounds more morally ambiguous than it really is though, the protaganists are essentially good guys (risking exposing themselves when their plans to blow up empty buildings risk hurting someone) and after a few episodes a new antagonist comes in until near the end that makes things a bit too close to good-vs-bad.

On my watch list. I hear it echoes Requiem for phantom so I want to get back onto watching that first.

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Fate/Zero
Future Diary (Mirai Nikki)
Both of these are "people in a magic deathmatch" tropey shonen setups. Both of them have protagonists that are not exactly pure of heart, and some of their competition is arguably better. (In Future Diary, the main protaganist is {unfortunately} a tropey shy high school boy {who eventually grows out of it a bit, thankfully} but his accomplice-blackmail-girlfriend is a psychopath. In Fate/Zero two of the main-est characters {it's hard to say who exactly is the true protagonist of F/Z} are essentially career assassins.) It's hard to say if these are really adult enough... let's just say they are more complex/adult takes on the shonen deathmatch trope, as well as good shows in their own right. F/Z especially has a nice ethical question posed at the climax of the show that can resonate with the audience quite a bit.

All things Fate Zero I leave to Silencer. I just think Fate/Stay the Night delivered a stronger ethical quandary.

Have yet to watch Mirai Nekki. Not sure if anyone else reccomends it?

D, on 02 January 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Others I haven't personally watched but heard that they would fit what you are looking for:

Monster
Cat Soup
Eden of the East
House of Five Leaves
Wolf Brigade

Still Picking up episodes of monster and Eden of the East at irregular intervals but I loved Monsters premise. The Doctor killer interaction/relationship is goooood.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 02 January 2015 - 11:03 PM

[Silencer]

Psycho-Pass deserves a mention for psychological/morality questioning Seinen, surely? XD

Shin Sekai Yori I see has already been duly noted.

Noir is decent for female characters (as are the less realistic/more straightforward Madlax and El Cazador de la Brujah, same company) and rounding out the "girls with guns" offerings we get Requiem for the Phantom...which has nothing to do with Zankyou and you'll not mention them together ever again, thank you very much...(from now on I think I'm just going to stop acknowledging the plot of ZnT beyond episode 4 or so...). Not that I hold the above up as great examples of female characters exactly, but they are decent at it and entertaining to boot. At least imo.

Alas, there is a shortage of other recommendations not already covered that spring to mind. I should probably scroll through my MAL list to see if there's anything else but the cream of the crop is a pretty short list, just like every other medium. XD

[Silencer]

*incidentally, I disagree about F/SN having an ethical quandary...assuming we're talking about the "main" character in each, then F/SN had no quandary...because the main character is so utterly unrealistic and his morals so ridiculous that there could never be an actual conflict there. It's so extreme as to be farcical.


But maybe that's just me...Heaven's Feel at least did better on that front. XD

[Cause]

I need your advice

Bleach has finished
Naruto is Finishing
One Piece for me is just not worth it

What Anime exists that is hundreds of of episodes long and worth watching

[D'rek]

Cause, on 03 January 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

I need your advice

Bleach has finished
Naruto is Finishing
One Piece for me is just not worth it

What Anime exists that is hundreds of of episodes long and worth watching

I've heard Gintama is supposed to be really good, and it's like 200+ episodes

[Nicodimas]

kill la kill..perfect. by far the most realistic anime released highly recommended. ENJOY!!!