[amphibian]

There's no proper debate until you've seen fifty episodes or so of One Piece.

It's like if I were saying Goodkind is terrible without actually reading a book or two of his (actually three, first two then skipped ahead to the one where Dick the UberMan spent the entire novel doing the Ayn Rand thing of building a marble sculpture that convinced everybody in the evil empire that war was wrong and then he broke it cuz he's Dick the UberMan).

Because I have experienced the awfulness that is Goodkind to a substantial degree, I can criticize it with more accuracy and precision than someone who's just read the evil chicken part.

Still don't get how people can read all that hokum and actually like the man or his books.

At least with Fairy Tale, there's a self aware element of hokey T&A and bffs saving the day against evil villains to prove superiority of friendship and love. Those are actually nice things, as opposed to the values Goodkind pushes readers to stick to.

[Silencer]

That, right there, is an inherent flaw in the series. It is not immune to criticism of its first twenty episodes. That's stupid.

QT has to agree with me here - he's made the point about series having to get things rolling in a reasonable amount of time before.

If you need to watch more episodes of OP than most series have in total to talk about it, it has enough problems to be criticised already.

We accept that some people just don't like GotM and that the series isn't right for them, but they can still criticise what they have read, ffs. XD

[amphibian]

Those people aren't trying to debate Malazan though.

Debate by its very nature requires serious preparation.

[LinearPhilosopher]

amphibian, on 24 June 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Those people aren't trying to debate Malazan though.

Debate by its very nature requires serious preparation.

no it doesn't

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 24 June 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

That, right there, is an inherent flaw in the series. It is not immune to criticism of its first twenty episodes. That's stupid.

QT has to agree with me here - he's made the point about series having to get things rolling in a reasonable amount of time before.

It is certainly not immune to criticism. My throughpoint here is that DESPITE some flaws early on it becomes something very special up to and including things I thought were flaws...were actually not.

[Dolmen 2.0]

BalrogLord, on 24 June 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

amphibian, on 24 June 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Those people aren't trying to debate Malazan though.

Debate by its very nature requires serious preparation.

no it doesn't

I see what you did there.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Silencer, on 24 June 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

That, right there, is an inherent flaw in the series. It is not immune to criticism of its first twenty episodes. That's stupid.

QT has to agree with me here - he's made the point about series having to get things rolling in a reasonable amount of time before.

If you need to watch more episodes of OP than most series have in total to talk about it, it has enough problems to be criticised already.

We accept that some people just don't like GotM and that the series isn't right for them, but they can still criticise what they have read, ffs. XD

Ok firstly I need to ask how many anime series have you watched beyond the 50 episode mark?

Maybe your opinion of anime is naturally skewed towards short succinct series because that sums up the majority of your viewing? The argument you present by itself is suggesting anime of a longer length should be
viewed the same as anime of a more compressed format. Anime of a compressed format strives to impress fast and early. To judge a long running anything on the relatively few opening episodes is a flawed perspective.

If one were to be an established sprinter running 20 100M dashes can one then say one has experienced enough running to judge how Thrilling a 2K marathon run is?

I don't think thats the case. Long anime has a different set of rules you have to accept to appreciate. You need to shift your perspective to get what you want out of it.
Thats why we often encourage new MBotF readers struggling with GotM to power through or try a new tact, the strength of a marathon piece of work is only evident deeper in, often
far deeper in than the short novellas (sprint races) could ever offer.

[D'rek]

@Dolmen - I am going to start my own anime. The first 150 episodes will be utter shit, but I am planning for it to be 20000000 episodes long so as long as it gets good around episode 1000 or so you should not criticize it based solely on the first 999 episodes. If you do, maybe you're just too accustomed to short 25- or 1000-episode animes and don't really "get" that truly long anime has its own set of rules in order to appreciate it.


Look, I'm sure OP is pretty good eventually. Enough people have said so that I believe it (despite the fact that the 20 or so episodes I've seen were all in the 600s and I only liked 1 of them... maybe you really do need to watch it all in order to enjoy it). But enough people have also said that it takes about 50 episodes before it becomes enjoyable. That's fine. But therefore in my mind it is labelled as "show that is 1000 episodes and people say it is good after the first 50 epsiodes or so" rather than just "show that is 1000 episodes and people say it is good". And that's fine, it just means I've got to be really intent on getting into it before I decide to start watching it because I'm still expecting good things, but also expecting it to take a bit of time to get there. I can accept that, and if I ever have that much time for it I'll probably watch it.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 24 June 2014 - 03:22 PM

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 24 June 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

D, on 23 June 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

More random future diary thoughts:

--The censor is weird. Nudity is okay, but getting stabbed in the eye needs to be blurred out?
--I have a serious anime pet peeve of characters repeatedly, whiningly, saying another character's name and only their name. If it just happens a little bit it's okay, but some shows (like this one) do it waaaaaay too much!
--I love characters who have tragic backstories that could believably make them either good or evil, and they seem nice and then turn on the protaganists. They make good mini-boss fights. I sense another one of these coming up though, and I don't think it is going to be as believable.
--She's blind and her parents died in a tragic accident when she was young, you didn't need to randomly add "oh and everyone raped her" to her backstory. Sigh. See above about this being a perverted anime... I guess I shouldn't be surprised it went there.

This anime actually did all those things in the early going? And you don't trust the writing staff to handle it well?

Looks like an easy "NOOOPE" to me.

If Future Diary was a 1000-page book, these things I said above would have happened well past the 20th page

[D'rek]

BalrogLord, on 24 June 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

minus the books which are badly written

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS!!!

[QuickTidal]

D, on 24 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

@Dolmen - I am going to start my own anime. The first 150 episodes will be utter shit, but I am planning for it to be 20000000 episodes long so as long as it gets good around episode 1000 or so you should not criticize it based solely on the first 999 episodes. If you do, maybe you're just too accustomed to short 25- or 1000-episode animes and don't really "get" that truly long anime has its own set of rules in order to appreciate it.


Look, I'm sure OP is pretty good eventually. Enough people have said so that I believe it (despite the fact that the 20 or so episodes I've seen were all in the 600s and I only liked 1 of them... maybe you really do need to watch it all in order to enjoy it). But enough people have also said that it takes about 50 episodes before it becomes enjoyable. That's fine. But therefore in my mind it is labelled as "show that is 1000 episodes and people say it is good after the first 50 epsiodes or so" rather than just "show that is 1000 episodes and people say it is good". And that's fine, it just means I've got to be really intent on getting into it before I decide to start watching it because I'm still expecting good things, but also expecting it to take a bit of time to get there. I can accept that, and if I ever have that much time for it I'll probably watch it.

I think the miscommunication here is the implication (which I don't think anyone made....I could be wrong tho?) that the first 20 eps are crappy.

They are not. They aren't up to snuff with the latter stuff, but this is not the difference between Terry Goodkind and Steven Erikson....this is the difference between STORM FRONT and GRAVE PERIL.

So while there are a number of table setting eps and SOME of it you might think are just ho-hum...that doens't dismiss the stuff that IS good, or the fact that even when it's not great...it's still pretty good/enjoyable.

I never sat there and went "Oh gods, how much of this need I endure?" ....I may have gone "Oh, well this isn't the best, it's only alright."

[Dolmen 2.0]

D, on 24 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

@Dolmen - I am going to start my own anime. The first 150 episodes will be utter shit, but I am planning for it to be 20000000 episodes long so as long as it gets good around episode 1000 or so you should not criticize it based solely on the first 999 episodes. If you do, maybe you're just too accustomed to short 25- or 1000-episode animes and don't really "get" that truly long anime has its own set of rules in order to appreciate it.

If you did do that you'd still have to acknowledge that if the majority vouch for the next 2000 episodes after the 150 then clearly there has been significant change and maybe its worth the 150 because 0.00075 percent of an entire body of work is a smidgeon of the grand scheme. That's what an epic is and it asks for that from its readers without apology. Granting the author room to develop and find the right way to convey this grand idea is par for the course. Rarely would the authors of massive epics have a sure fire approach to introducing their story.

I do agree that an intro is crucial. after 150 episodes of crap I'd also be over it. Lets be honest though, with epics the start is always wobbly, the curve is always steep. GotM, The Black Company, Storm Front. The first books tend to struggle, but then as the author finds the sweet spot and as the readers shift into the right mindset something happens and suddenly the author and the Reader are speaking common. At that point the author worries less about how he's saying things and now can focus on what he actually wants to say.

That's when the magic happens. This is where the author is comfortable and they can really pull you in, showing you glimpses of a scheme immeasurably big and yet precise, your Memories of Ices or Summer Knights. But even at that point there is no way you can truly fathom how epic things get. You just get the hints. This is why I think Amph, QT and myself like the One-Piece story line. its got that feel that it knows where true north is and its having alot of fun but it will get to an amazing destination.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Heh Cross post. Quick pretty much said it with far less words.

[LinearPhilosopher]

D, on 24 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

BalrogLord, on 24 June 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

minus the books which are badly written

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS!!!

i just got bored, whenever there was fighting it was always addressed with the vaguest of details. Add to that the fact that pretty much every general can walk out into the enemy army, slay a thousand soldiers and come out unscathed. In real life you'd get stabed in the back, a spear would find your leg etc...

[D'rek]

BalrogLord, on 24 June 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

D, on 24 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

BalrogLord, on 24 June 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

minus the books which are badly written

THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS!!!

i just got bored, whenever there was fighting it was always addressed with the vaguest of details. Add to that the fact that pretty much every general can walk out into the enemy army, slay a thousand soldiers and come out unscathed. In real life you'd get stabed in the back, a spear would find your leg etc...

I remember reading an anthropologist/historian's thesis a while back that was pretty much all about determining how wars really were fought in Three Kingdoms Period China, and though we can never know for sure, his research concluded that yes, that's pretty much exactly how they were fought. In short, the vast majority of the army was comprised of recruited/conscripted peasants with spears who had little combat training and only basic rehearsal of drills and formations. The captains fought at the head of their legions and the generals at the front of the whole army, or else the peasants would just get scared and run away. The captains and generals, of course, had years of professional training so could often fight through a ton of shy, untrained peasants pretty easily. Of course, some would occasionally die by chance or from fighting enemy officers, and hence they would have their personal retinue of elite bodyguards with them - professional soldiers who were also trained combatants. This is why in both the Sanguozhi and Sanguozhi Tongsu Yanyi they talk about generals having "bodyguards" of a thousand troops or whatever crazy number. Basically, they had enough money to keep a thousand professional soldiers on staff and when they did go to war those thousand elite troops would be at the frontlines carving through the 40000-strong peasant army with ease (and of course the enemy's general who has his own 1000 bodyguards is doing the same. Or they meet in the middle and whomever loses has their peasant army turn around and run). It's also why there's so many stories of generals rallying the men's morale (ie Cao Cao hallucinating peach trees), because the peasant armies could pretty easily give up, or a desperate peasasnt army really did fight much better than a non-desperate one (ie Cao Cao's army with a river at its back against Yuan Shao).

tl;dr Dynasty Warriors was right


All of which is besides the point, because reading Rot3K is not about believability or historical accuracy. If you wanted a commitment to historical accuracy and realism, you should have just read the Sanguozhi/Sanguozhi Zhu. Asking that from Sanguozhi Yanyi is like asking it from the Illiad. Guanzhong wasn't trying to write a history, he was uniting a thousand myths, poems, artistic works and historical accounts into a dramatic/heroic epic tale (ie a literary romance) that brought all these tales of past exploits into a single narrative full of themes that would resonate strongly with the current culture he was living in.

[Silencer]

If the episodes of OP I've seen so far are the GotM to a later MoI, then this series is pretty average all around. The first episodes are not above average, or very engaging, imo. Because the characters are one dimensional. Because the powers are boring.

Again, I can see glimmers here and there. But if you guys are seriously calling these first episodes at least comparable to the rest of the series, then I think OP isn't for me.


(Still on phone )

[amphibian]

Then you will miss out on Merry in Water7, Kuma's appearance, the jailbreak ridiculousness and more.

I can't make you do anything, but know that this is you turning down the best manga and anime of the last fifteen years or more.

Mostly because I think you cemented in your own head that the early episodes are bad and won't re watch.

[LinearPhilosopher]

amphibian, on 25 June 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

I can't make you do anything, but know that this is you turning down the best manga and anime of the last fifteen years or more.

i think we've got a fanboy on our hands.

Ill bite, i'll call bullshit. You're saying the greateast anime of all time has severe issues at the start in terms of pacing and, engagement. The OP community commonly admits that OP doesn't get good till 50~eps in so you may as well skip it. For OP to be the best anime ever, things would have to be as such as this is something to be found in every anime series. Well newsflash it isn't. You're saying that OP, even though the start is terrible it's still the best anime ever, despite the fact that there are many anime running for best anime ever, and they have this thing called consistency, IE, they are good throughout.

In other words, we got a fallacy of composition. Also im getting annoyed at the frequent comparisons to malazan. Debate the issue, not the comparison. Comparisons is not the same as saying two things are equal, which is why when you end up debating the comparison, and not the issue your argumentation gets sidetracked into tangents that don't relate to the original topic of discussion. If OP is great, you shouldn't need to constantly go back to malazan to make your point. Because what we end up being left with is the following

X is malazan
malazan is great
therefore x is great

But, x is not malazan because of Y
Therefore x is not great.


Let me tell you something. I think malazan is great, nay i Think malazan is the greatest piece of fantasy ever written. Whenever i read a piece of fantasy Malazan is my benchmark, it's what i compare things to. Now for my own purposes this is fine. But is it adequate if im talking to someone whose a fan of tolkien, or a fan of GRM? No it isn't, because what im left with is a circular arugment predicated upon my onw subjective tastes. Yes there are elements in malazan that are great, but because im taken by malazan, the elements found in malazan are the ones ill use in an argument, which will only end up in my justificying malazan through malazan. Other series may have other endearing elements, and because they aren't as prevalent in malazan, they fall by the wayside which only serves to skew my own standard. Now my standard of fantasy has evolved , from Rowling to tolkien, to Pierre Bottero (french guy who wrote one of my favourite fantasy series, i doubt it was translated into english)to salvatore to finally erikson. But it doesn't make my argument less circular.

It's like when a christian tells you Jesus Christ was the greatest man to have ever lived. The standard of behavior used to judged him is the christian one, in other words we're juding Jesus Christ by means of Jesus Christ.

Which is why, if we are genuinely interested in having a discussion about greatest anime ever, as opposed to merely circle jerking each other and vainly trying to justify our own opinions to others to validate our viewpoints, let's actually try and construct a series of standards that can be used to compare animes to each other. These standards are something that must be developed independentely of our preference in anime. Which is why if you're using you own favourite seires as a starting point, you're going to fail. Let's ask ourselves some fundamental questions. Why do we enjoy anime? What make anime great? What makes a great anime?

From answering these question we can start our discussion

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 25 June 2014 - 02:03 PM

[amphibian]

Well written characters beyond the main group, complex storylines, kinetic and enjoyable action sequences and a dedication to exploring themes beyond that of "let's have fun" or "need to find a romantic partner/secret of my inherited superpowers".

One Piece does all of that. I say that the early episodes stutter a little because it's a staff new to the anime format of television. It gets good at roughly the introduction of Usopp, becomes gripping once Nami shows up and once they are into the Grand Line, it's full fledged genius. It is inventive, yet adheres even after 600+ episodes to a set of rules and above all, it respects the audience to pick up callbacks and hints.

I've watched a fair amount of anime over the years and tried stuff outside my wheelhouse quite a few times. One Piece is the cash cow of the industry, but it's also the best. It's the one example of $ not ruining or preventing the story being great that I can come up with.

[LinearPhilosopher]

amphibian, on 25 June 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Well written characters beyond the main group, complex storylines, kinetic and enjoyable action sequences and a dedication to exploring themes beyond that of "let's have fun" or "need to find a romantic partner/secret of my inherited superpowers".

By your standards i could easily put in GITS, its main cast were well developed, side characters well developed (saitou, pazu, gouda, kuze, "laughing man"), story lines were complex with good inclusions of intrigue as well as other things such as imagery (crows in the conversation between batou and Gouda near end of s2). In terms of exploring themes it's one of the greatest in the cyberpunk genre. ON top of that want to know what else it has? It's consistent throughout, has an AMAZING soundtrack, and a unique blend of CGI and animation that does it right. The CGI is there to enhance the animation and not there to cover up for it (like in C for example).

recall what i said earlier about using elements in X to justify X. Even by using your own standards all i had to do was bring in one other show that had additional elements and voila GiTS is now the greatest anime of all time. DO i think that is the case? No i don't , its amazing but i don't think best is a title i can attribute.

Which is why rather than you trying to vindicate your fanboyism, we all get together, (d'rek, QT, Silencer,yourself etc..) and come up with an answers to my earlier questions before even getting into picking which anime is the best. What im proposing might actually yield an interesting discussion, rather than this giant OP argument that has not progressed one bit since it was introduced many years ago. This op argument is stale and is going nowhere.