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Anime

#4761 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 24 February 2023 - 08:37 AM

3D animation? What, like Hologra?

Actually pretend I didn't say anything. Nothing to see here. Hmm? Glowsticks? What do you mean?
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#4762 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 24 February 2023 - 12:39 PM

Deeper into BLADE RUNNER BLACK LOTUS, and yeah you know what, aside from some kinky facial animations, it's really lovely to look at. Now this may be down to setting and character designs...but I'd have no problem watching another show animated like this as long as the story was solid. And again, the allowability for REALLY kinetic and flowing fights blows 2D animation out of the water.
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#4763 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 February 2023 - 04:54 PM

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 24 February 2023 - 08:06 AM, said:

View PostD, on 24 February 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 23 February 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

Similarly the recent attack on titan episodes have managed to seamlessly integrate CGI with handrawn animation.


See, I'd consider attack on titan to be a great example of how the majority of CGI in anime is bad, because it's so obvious how much worse it got.

There's a scene in the first season where the lady titan gets its arm ripped off and the arm goes bouncing through the street, blood splattering all over, and winds up gripping a bridge or building or something - all on camera, all looking stylish and detailed. Then there's a scene in the latest season where once again the same titan has its arm blown off and... well they don't show it actually being detached, the camera just awkwardly zooms in on her so you only see her from, like, the neck down, and the arm just falls from the top of the screen to the bottom.

You know i never actually made that comparison before. Your pointing it out makes the difference very clear.

I think I'm more forgiving of it as i've been watching alot of bad cgi anime and i guess Mappas handling of CGI in comparison felt alot less jarring. The quality drop is definately there. Its almost as hard to ignore ad S1 vs S2 of One Punch man. I still enjoy OPM S2 but it pales in comparison.


Yeah, that's just it, there's so much bad CGI in anime that you start to get accustomed to it. You start to think "well it's not nearly as bad as so-and-so absolutely atrocious CGI, so maybe this is actually good?!" even when it's really, like, mediocre at best.


View PostDolmen 2.0, on 24 February 2023 - 08:06 AM, said:

View PostD, on 24 February 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

.... The stuff where they try to use 3D models inside an otherwise-2D show, like attack on titan, have all been a huge annoyance/disappointment for me. They never manage to make it blend in with the 2D parts seamlessly, and every single time I find myself thinking the 3D animation itself is just worse than what I've seen done in similar all-2D shows.



So i guess Solo Leveling might be doing the right thing here and starting us off with a heavy 3D setup?

I know it would be great to watch in 2d animation but like QT says the shows that fully commit to 3d quality and style may actually feel alot better than the mix n match approach we got in AOT and OPM.

I actually really like the dragon prince. I even had a good time with the netflix pacific rim adaptation largely because i bought in early on the approach and by the 3rd episode had my focus solely on the story. It fell of the rails a few times but pacific rim always demands a bit of grace...


I dunno anything about the upcoming solo leveling manhwa nor the adaptation so can't really say, but I assume it is going to be "2D with CGI use" ie not a full-3D show at least?

Has there been any details on what they really meant by that so far? I feel like just saying it will have a big 3D basis could mean all sorts of things. Like, you could say Bocchi the Rock was "reliant on CGI" for its performance scenes in order to make bits like this:

Posted Image

...but what it really meant there was them using 3D CGI to create reference materials and then they still recreated it (or drew over it?) in 2D, they didn't just render the scene from the 3D assets. ufotable has done similar stuff with their action scenes like in Demon Slayer and the Fate stuff. So I could totally see Solo Leveling getting that sort of "using 3D" treatment... or it could be the opposite and ugly 3D models poorly plopped into otherwise-2D scenes.

It also might matter just as much who is making the show. Like, the new Trigun is entirely CGI and the CGI itself is pretty good, but I've seen people complaining/pointing out that apparently the guy directing it has experience *making* CGI animation but not *directing* it, and the show has problems with him not necessarily being very good at directing it. Conversely, the guy who did Night Head has been directing CGI works for a long time so he knows better how to plan out a CGI scene and how to work with the limits of their technology, I guess.



View PostMaark Abbott, on 24 February 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

3D animation? What, like Hologra?

Actually pretend I didn't say anything. Nothing to see here. Hmm? Glowsticks? What do you mean?


Is Hologra one of those V-tuber things? Some anime studios are totally going to start using that V-tuber tech in shows sometime soon and it's going to look even worse.


View PostQuickTidal, on 24 February 2023 - 12:39 PM, said:

but I'd have no problem watching another show animated like this as long as the story was solid. And again, the allowability for REALLY kinetic and flowing fights blows 2D animation out of the water.


Hard disagree on "blows 2D animation out of the water" (in a "there's good and bad of both, and I still prefer the absolute best 2D over the absolute best 3D" way) but whatever, yeah the fights in Black Lotus look really good. It's just so not-anime-looking that I can't really even think of it as "anime" at all. And since Blade Runner was not an anime franchise to begin with, it works totally fine. Stuff from Sola like SAC_2045 melts my brain though, since it doesn't look nearly as good as Black Lotus does and also can't help but be compared to the original Ghost in the Shell.

But anyways, Sola seems to have become some sort of go-to company for Netflix/Amazon/Crunchyroll/etc to get 'exclusive' shows made for their streaming services, and Kenji Kamiyama seems happy to keep making them with Sola, so it's probably a safe guess that there will be lots more shows just like that still coming.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4764 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 25 February 2023 - 03:39 AM

Oooooh, i took actual damage to my health bar on SAC_2045.

I'm a huge GiTS fan. Possibly the anime most responsible for my love of the genre. I also love most of the artists active on SAC, I follow most of them on social media and love their work.

On paper SAC_2045 should have been a homerun. What I've heard about the core story wasn't all that bad tbh but seeing such iconic characters renderred in that way made the show unwatchable for me.

I really could not get past episode 1.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 25 February 2023 - 03:41 AM

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#4765 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 25 February 2023 - 03:45 AM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 24 February 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

3D animation? What, like Hologra?

Actually pretend I didn't say anything. Nothing to see here. Hmm? Glowsticks? What do you mean?


See now i'm properly worried.
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#4766 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 25 February 2023 - 06:57 AM

View PostD, on 24 February 2023 - 04:54 PM, said:

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 24 February 2023 - 08:06 AM, said:

View PostD, on 24 February 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 23 February 2023 - 07:14 PM, said:

Similarly the recent attack on titan episodes have managed to seamlessly integrate CGI with handrawn animation.


See, I'd consider attack on titan to be a great example of how the majority of CGI in anime is bad, because it's so obvious how much worse it got.

There's a scene in the first season where the lady titan gets its arm ripped off and the arm goes bouncing through the street, blood splattering all over, and winds up gripping a bridge or building or something - all on camera, all looking stylish and detailed. Then there's a scene in the latest season where once again the same titan has its arm blown off and... well they don't show it actually being detached, the camera just awkwardly zooms in on her so you only see her from, like, the neck down, and the arm just falls from the top of the screen to the bottom.

You know i never actually made that comparison before. Your pointing it out makes the difference very clear.

I think I'm more forgiving of it as i've been watching alot of bad cgi anime and i guess Mappas handling of CGI in comparison felt alot less jarring. The quality drop is definately there. Its almost as hard to ignore ad S1 vs S2 of One Punch man. I still enjoy OPM S2 but it pales in comparison.


Yeah, that's just it, there's so much bad CGI in anime that you start to get accustomed to it. You start to think "well it's not nearly as bad as so-and-so absolutely atrocious CGI, so maybe this is actually good?!" even when it's really, like, mediocre at best.


View PostDolmen 2.0, on 24 February 2023 - 08:06 AM, said:

View PostD, on 24 February 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

.... The stuff where they try to use 3D models inside an otherwise-2D show, like attack on titan, have all been a huge annoyance/disappointment for me. They never manage to make it blend in with the 2D parts seamlessly, and every single time I find myself thinking the 3D animation itself is just worse than what I've seen done in similar all-2D shows.



So i guess Solo Leveling might be doing the right thing here and starting us off with a heavy 3D setup?

I know it would be great to watch in 2d animation but like QT says the shows that fully commit to 3d quality and style may actually feel alot better than the mix n match approach we got in AOT and OPM.

I actually really like the dragon prince. I even had a good time with the netflix pacific rim adaptation largely because i bought in early on the approach and by the 3rd episode had my focus solely on the story. It fell of the rails a few times but pacific rim always demands a bit of grace...


I dunno anything about the upcoming solo leveling manhwa nor the adaptation so can't really say, but I assume it is going to be "2D with CGI use" ie not a full-3D show at least?

Has there been any details on what they really meant by that so far? I feel like just saying it will have a big 3D basis could mean all sorts of things. Like, you could say Bocchi the Rock was "reliant on CGI" for its performance scenes in order to make bits like this:

Posted Image

...but what it really meant there was them using 3D CGI to create reference materials and then they still recreated it (or drew over it?) in 2D, they didn't just render the scene from the 3D assets. ufotable has done similar stuff with their action scenes like in Demon Slayer and the Fate stuff. So I could totally see Solo Leveling getting that sort of "using 3D" treatment... or it could be the opposite and ugly 3D models poorly plopped into otherwise-2D scenes.

It also might matter just as much who is making the show. Like, the new Trigun is entirely CGI and the CGI itself is pretty good, but I've seen people complaining/pointing out that apparently the guy directing it has experience *making* CGI animation but not *directing* it, and the show has problems with him not necessarily being very good at directing it. Conversely, the guy who did Night Head has been directing CGI works for a long time so he knows better how to plan out a CGI scene and how to work with the limits of their technology, I guess.



View PostMaark Abbott, on 24 February 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

3D animation? What, like Hologra?

Actually pretend I didn't say anything. Nothing to see here. Hmm? Glowsticks? What do you mean?


Is Hologra one of those V-tuber things? Some anime studios are totally going to start using that V-tuber tech in shows sometime soon and it's going to look even worse.


View PostQuickTidal, on 24 February 2023 - 12:39 PM, said:

but I'd have no problem watching another show animated like this as long as the story was solid. And again, the allowability for REALLY kinetic and flowing fights blows 2D animation out of the water.


Hard disagree on "blows 2D animation out of the water" (in a "there's good and bad of both, and I still prefer the absolute best 2D over the absolute best 3D" way) but whatever, yeah the fights in Black Lotus look really good. It's just so not-anime-looking that I can't really even think of it as "anime" at all. And since Blade Runner was not an anime franchise to begin with, it works totally fine. Stuff from Sola like SAC_2045 melts my brain though, since it doesn't look nearly as good as Black Lotus does and also can't help but be compared to the original Ghost in the Shell.

But anyways, Sola seems to have become some sort of go-to company for Netflix/Amazon/Crunchyroll/etc to get 'exclusive' shows made for their streaming services, and Kenji Kamiyama seems happy to keep making them with Sola, so it's probably a safe guess that there will be lots more shows just like that still coming.


RE Bocchi, I appreciated the performance CGI because Bocchi made the effort to make the playing look believable which is actually really hard to do.

RE Live2D, most Vtuber stuff isn't 3D but Hologra uses the 3D models. Live2D is not really useful to animate with outside of video games (see: Neptunia, Fairy Fencer, which both use simplified L2D character models for cutscenes) because it's limited, quite static. To say more would forever damn myself so I'll just shut up. (Ginto I swear to god if you come back now then :Gumble:)
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#4767 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 25 February 2023 - 05:00 PM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 25 February 2023 - 06:57 AM, said:

Live2D is not really useful to animate with outside of video games (see: Neptunia, Fairy Fencer, which both use simplified L2D character models for cutscenes) because it's limited, quite static.


You're right, but I dunno I have a feeling that common sense like that isn't going to stop them.

Someone looked at early digital painting/editing animation tech when it was first becoming available and was like "This is way uglier than what we currently do, but it's high tech so let's start making a bunch of anime with it" and we got a million ugly brown shows for a while. Same for the really early CGI, so many shows in the 90s were like "Oh we have a hacking scene? Let's render some single color cubes floating around instead of 2D-animating something detailed!"

I think some idiot producers or directors or something is going to think Vtuber tech is the way of the future for animation, or maybe just let them make a show more easily/cheaply, and it's totally gonna happen way before the technology is even ready for that, despite all common and obvious sense showing how dumb that is.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4768 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 27 February 2023 - 08:36 AM

For the tech to work for animation it needs to be 3D avatars which involves basically what Andy Serkis wore for Gollum if you ever saw the making of LOTR. And there's still a LOT of capacity for uncanny valley stuff in that.

You -COULD- make it work with formats like Max Headroom, I guess. But beyond that a director trying to use it for much else will get reamed.
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#4769 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 27 February 2023 - 03:13 PM

Berserk 2016 exists... and yes, it got absolutely reamed. And then they made a sequel anyway. I don't know why, but getting reamed is not a deterrent to some of these people.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4770 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 27 February 2023 - 04:24 PM

View PostD, on 27 February 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

Berserk 2016 exists... and yes, it got absolutely reamed. And then they made a sequel anyway. I don't know why, but getting reamed is not a deterrent to some of these people.



I think they gain quite a bit of profit off the process even if they bomb. Motion capture is a relatively cheap production process and I guess a title like Berserk would sell on tissue paper. The studio behind Berserk 2016 probably took the risk knowing that.
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#4771 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 28 February 2023 - 12:14 AM

A friend reminded me that the last arc of the Bleach manga has been made into anime at some point when I wasn't looking, so I'm rewatching the entire thing :) Guilty pleasures...
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#4772 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 28 February 2023 - 07:02 AM

View PostDolmen 2.0, on 27 February 2023 - 04:24 PM, said:

View PostD, on 27 February 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

Berserk 2016 exists... and yes, it got absolutely reamed. And then they made a sequel anyway. I don't know why, but getting reamed is not a deterrent to some of these people.



I think they gain quite a bit of profit off the process even if they bomb. Motion capture is a relatively cheap production process and I guess a title like Berserk would sell on tissue paper. The studio behind Berserk 2016 probably took the risk knowing that.


I'm still unconvinced that L2D would be used to animate stuff. A top of the line L2D model runs to thousands of dollars to make - less expressive ones are fine to stream with but they lack the range of animation and expression to do much more that with.
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#4773 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 06 March 2023 - 11:05 PM

Funnily enough using it as a reference in the 3D talk finally got me to watch the rest of Bocchi the Rock this weekend and the second half was just as great as the first half, it really is an incredible show.

Finished DIY, too, which kinda never really came together all that well story-wise, but still had really good vibes and cutesyness the whole way through, overall I still enjoyed it.

I don't think I'm going to go back to the 80,000 gold show or Endo & Kobayashi live, I tried 1 more episode of each but they were mostly boring to me. So time to go hunting for something new!

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4774 User is offline   LinearPhilosopher 

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 01:49 AM

View PostGothos, on 28 February 2023 - 12:14 AM, said:

A friend reminded me that the last arc of the Bleach manga has been made into anime at some point when I wasn't looking, so I'm rewatching the entire thing :) Guilty pleasures...



And its on disney plus of all places... weird that one.
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#4775 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 07:40 AM

View PostD, on 06 March 2023 - 11:05 PM, said:

Funnily enough using it as a reference in the 3D talk finally got me to watch the rest of Bocchi the Rock this weekend and the second half was just as great as the first half, it really is an incredible show.

Finished DIY, too, which kinda never really came together all that well story-wise, but still had really good vibes and cutesyness the whole way through, overall I still enjoyed it.

I don't think I'm going to go back to the 80,000 gold show or Endo & Kobayashi live, I tried 1 more episode of each but they were mostly boring to me. So time to go hunting for something new!


Bocchi and DIY were great. Low to no stakes comfy time.

I think I saw rumours of Bocchi season 2 somewhere...
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#4776 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July
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#4777 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 07 March 2023 - 06:19 PM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM, said:

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July


What a weird concept. Looks interesting, but the amount of fan service in the teaser is extreme. LOL
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#4778 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 08 March 2023 - 02:47 AM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM, said:

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July


Let me guess, he's a slime sword spider skeleton vending machine for all of 10 minutes before he unlocks magic possession or shapeshifting spells or whatever and becomes just another isekai wizard?

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4779 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 08 March 2023 - 08:51 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 07 March 2023 - 06:19 PM, said:

View PostMaark Abbott, on 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM, said:

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July


What a weird concept. Looks interesting, but the amount of fan service in the teaser is extreme. LOL



View PostD, on 08 March 2023 - 02:47 AM, said:

View PostMaark Abbott, on 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM, said:

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July


Let me guess, he's a slime sword spider skeleton vending machine for all of 10 minutes before he unlocks magic possession or shapeshifting spells or whatever and becomes just another isekai wizard?


Nope, he stays a vending machine throughout and has to communicate through pre-programmed phrases. His special ability is being able to change form between different types of vending machines that dispense different products - in the third book I think he does get some barrier magic but it's very much a buddy system - he has powerful defensive magic, the girl who carries him around is accidentally too strong for her own good and punches stuff super hard.

It's ridiculous and corny as fuck, but it's that delightful sort of isekai where it knows it's fucking STUPID and dumb and has a lot of fun with it.

On an unrelated, D - if you're looking for another comfydumb show to watch, have you tried the Campfire Cooking isekai? Literally guy isekais with one skill which is to buy from an online supermarket and have it deliver to his item box, and cooks food for his dog who is also a god of destruction. Ludicrous, comfy fun.
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#4780 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 08 March 2023 - 01:30 PM

View PostMaark Abbott, on 08 March 2023 - 08:51 AM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 07 March 2023 - 06:19 PM, said:

View PostMaark Abbott, on 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM, said:

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July


What a weird concept. Looks interesting, but the amount of fan service in the teaser is extreme. LOL



View PostD, on 08 March 2023 - 02:47 AM, said:

View PostMaark Abbott, on 07 March 2023 - 04:09 PM, said:

Stop the fuckin' presses, Reborn as a Vending Machine drops in July


Let me guess, he's a slime sword spider skeleton vending machine for all of 10 minutes before he unlocks magic possession or shapeshifting spells or whatever and becomes just another isekai wizard?


Nope, he stays a vending machine throughout and has to communicate through pre-programmed phrases. His special ability is being able to change form between different types of vending machines that dispense different products - in the third book I think he does get some barrier magic but it's very much a buddy system - he has powerful defensive magic, the girl who carries him around is accidentally too strong for her own good and punches stuff super hard.

It's ridiculous and corny as fuck, but it's that delightful sort of isekai where it knows it's fucking STUPID and dumb and has a lot of fun with it.

On an unrelated, D - if you're looking for another comfydumb show to watch, have you tried the Campfire Cooking isekai? Literally guy isekais with one skill which is to buy from an online supermarket and have it deliver to his item box, and cooks food for his dog who is also a god of destruction. Ludicrous, comfy fun.


I like that Isekai authors have started to compete over which uncanny object from today would actually be great in a fantasy setting.
'Why not come back as an electric kettle? Yeah, human bodies are for newbs!'
It's a nice step away from the now common changing of protagonist class to healer or changing the weapon type to nunchucks.


In a sidenote I recently started reading 'Hero has returned'. It's the Boys meets Isekai but in a way that elevates both story concepts. The premise is pretty interesting. It drives a ridiculous pace, alot happens in the first 4 chapters and I feel like a bunch of story gets lost in the frenzy.

The core questions asked: What happens when you win and head back? What trauma do you live out dying and trying to get back home? Life doesn't stop for Isekai heroes and for all intents and purposes an Isekai looks,sounds and feels like abandonment. To the society these heroes come from the 'return' is seen as a delusional escape from responsibilities, they get pushed down the social order, no longer fitting with family and friends. The catch is, when these heroes return, they keep the demon god killing powers they amassed while away and quickly realise they can push back. It gets DARK.

But also lowkey amazing. The ideological battles are super interesting. And the villains are magnifiscent and utterly insane.
“Behind this mask there is more than just flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea... and ideas are bulletproof Gas-Fireproof.”
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