[Aptorian]

Look. All you mindless chimps. I have this ability that grants me the power to look at the parts of a product like a book or a film and evaluate each piece and come to a conclusion about what parts I like and which ones I don't. I do not feel a need to automatically dismiss everything about a product just because there a flaws or because the hive mind says so.

This is not the first time we've had this discussion. Most people will agree that despite it's flaws, some pretty heavy ones, Wizards First Rule is okay. Not great but not horrible either. Like Abyss says, Goodkind can write. His characters are believable. The action scenes hold water. There's some truly awesome fantasy elements in there.

It is his complete lack of fore sight, imagination and integrity that annoys me. That and the rape.

Like I wrote above. WFR is a good stand alone book. It certainly roped me in when I read it. The reason why I would advocate reading the second one is that you need to see the downward slope the series begins at this point. It's an okay book if a bit slow 80% through. Then at 90% you begin to wonder when Goodkind is going to wrap things up. When there's 10% left Goodkind suddenly remembers the book needs and ending an he slaps a lot of shit together to pretend that he had everything figured out.

How ever, book 2 still has some great parts. The "I AM THE BRINGER OF DEATH"/spirit sword skill stuff is absolutely awesome. Those that have read book two will remember that iconic scene where Richard has been dragged to the Sisters monastary and is paraded out in front of the Sisters. Everyone have been looking forward to his coming for 20 years. It has been foretold that he is someone very important. People that arrive usually see the vocation as an honor.

Instead Richard takes a big dump on their parade. He stands before the assembled faculty, draws the Sword of Truthiness drags it across his forearms drawing blood and declares that he is the Bringer of Death, and as long as he wears that color, they are at war. That scene, along with the stuff surrounding the mad prophet, was in my opinion worth reading the book for all alone. It was one of the best fantasy scenes I can recall reading.

As book 2 ended I was disappointed at how shitty Goodkind had wrapped up the book, but I had hopes that he would make amends in book 3. As it turned out it just became shittier and shittier.

This post has been edited by Battle Plaptypus: 13 May 2011 - 06:12 PM

[Illuyankas]

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

JUST BECAUSE THIS PIECE OF CORN WAS TAKEN FROM A PILE OF SHIT, COVERED IN SHIT AND DIGESTED BEFORE BEING SHAT OUT DOESN'T MAKE IT NOT SHIT

YOU'RE ALL SHEEPLE FOR HATING BAD THINGS

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

[Aptorian]

Ah, a compelling argument, Illuyankas, I clearly stand corrected.

[Illuyankas]

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:25 PM, said:

I'm going to continue to pretend calling everyone brainless followers for disliking terrible things I enjoy because I have bad taste isn't a fucking terrible method of arguing and keep being a bitch about it!

Alternatively,

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:25 PM, said:

For people with issues reading.

[Aptorian]

Assuming you read Book 1 and 2, why don't you put forth some arguments on why these two books are awful? That way we could have discussion that doesn't just revolve around people calling my taste in books into question and amusing smilies that don't really add anything to the discussion.

I took the time to write out a couple of paragraphs pointing out some aspects of the books that I enjoyed, why don't you do the same?

[Abyss]

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

... Like Abyss says, Goodkind can write. His characters are believable. The action scenes hold water. There's some truly awesome fantasy elements in there....

Apt and i just agreed on something.
And the something was Goodkind.

Truly, this is the End Time.


- Abyss, wants to point out that 90% of fantasy lit would be vastly improved by the addition of lesbian ninja anti-magic commando bondage assassins...

[QuickTidal]

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

Like I wrote above. WFR is a good stand alone book.

As long as you are aware that he cribbed the plot from STAR WARS....magic sword, baby daddy and all.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 May 2011 - 07:23 PM

[Illuyankas]

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:52 PM, said:

Assuming you read Book 1 and 2, why don't you put forth some arguments on why these two books are awful? That way we could have discussion that doesn't just revolve around people calling my taste in books into question and amusing smilies that don't really add anything to the discussion.

I took the time to write out a couple of paragraphs pointing out some aspects of the books that I enjoyed, why don't you do the same?

That would imply there were any enjoyable aspects of the books in the first place (also stop overreacting man jeez)

As for the books, I'm going to go all analogy on you for a moment.

There's a chef, who has prepared an enormous banquet. Multiple courses, various different kinds of servings, the whole works. He's even so generous as to let you pay up to whichever course you want to stop at! Now, this deal sounds too good to be true, so you speak to the people leaving the restaurant after trying it. It's not good at all. Most people suffered through the first few courses, and are perfectly willing to tell you what kind of ingredients the chef used. Excrement. His own, boiling hot excrement, served fresh from his behind, mixed in with incredibly boring side dishes that were bulk-ordered from the nearest supermarket, the same kind that are in every single massproduced diner nowadays. Others enjoyed the first few handfuls - perhaps they really like even the most overused dishes if there's a different 'sauce' on them - only stopping when they were served live scorpions and ebola cocktails along with supersized versions of the chef's liquid foulness. You don't believe them. Surely no one would eat enough shit to fund this madman's multiple defecations? They see your disbelief, written on your face, and decide they have to show you what you've missed. One of them, pale and unsteady on his feet, gives you a bag. He tells you, "For proof." You open it, and recoil from the stench. It's appalling! There's no redeeming factors to this, it smells worse than a septic tank! Because you're committed now, your trembling hand dips a finger into the sordid morass of gunk and faeces in the bag, then, arm quivering so hard drops fall off the globule of horror staining your finger and hit the ground, smoking, you touch your tongue to it.

When you come to, you're covered in your own vomit and you've been dragged to a corner. You can taste blood, which you're overjoyed by, because it means you can still taste. The figure who gave you the bag, vindication shining in his ruined features, tells you, "That was course five. Not even halfway through." Your stomach, aching and distraught, clenches reflexively and you wince in pain. From behind the people surrounding your prostrate form, you hear a shout, "The side dishes are delicious, you philistines!" before a series of bloody-sounding coughs drowns out his painfilled cries. Another sits in a corner, curled into the fetal position, whimpering to himself, "The first weren't so bad, the first weren't so bad, the first weren't so bad..." Someone asks you, "So, want to try the first course? It's good. Kind of." You punch him in the face.



THERE WAS THAT SUBTLE ENOUGH FOR YOU GUYS I THINK I COULD BE SUBTLER IF I TRIED

[HoosierDaddy]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

Like I wrote above. WFR is a good stand alone book.

As long as you are aware that he cribbed the plot from STAR WARS....magic sword, baby daddy and all.

Hero of a thousand faces?

Plus, being the Star Wars addict that I am, I think I would have remembered (quite fondly) Luke being abducted by Imperial Sex-Torturers in the Death Star (or on Tatooine, Yavin IV, Hoth, Dagobah, Endor or Death Star: The Sequel.)

Zedd is about as useful as Obi-Wan and Yoda were, though.

[Astra]

I have all the books besides the last one in hardback edition.

Will I read it? I don't think I live long enough.

[Kanese S's]

Abyss, on 13 May 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

Notwithstanding my innate 'must finish series' habit, made it through FAITH and then the nonsense philosphizing along with Richard's magically appearing stonecutter skills and the entire syphillis thing just finally drove me away for good and nothing i;ve heard re later books tempted me back even slightly.

What kills me about the series is that Goodkind [eyes bleed] is not a horrible writer. There are worse writers out there. he can do a decent action scene. His characters are fine most of the time... And he had some really cool ideas... the Confessors, the Quads, the Sylph, the way the Old World deals with Prophets... even the Dreamwalker (if we ignore the whole 'i'm so evil that i have witches blowing me all the time just to prove how evil i am' thing...)... and fundamentally the utter rip off concepts like the Sisters don't bother me that much... Jordan didn't pioneer that concept after all... even the Mord Sith lesbian ninja anti-magic commando bondage assassins were actually a neat idea...

But then there's the stupid... Richard magically becomes a master stonecutter... the Sword of Truth makes its own decisions whether to kill or not 'because it sense the truth!'... teenagers being fake trained as border guards... an entire plotline dedicated to useless characters giving each other venereal disease...

And when he goes all preachy, which he does with alarming regularity, starting with post-rape abortion in the 3rd or 4th book, it becomes irritating. Really, really irritating.

And then there's the Chicken. I have nightmares about that Chicken. [/eyes bleed]

I pretty much agree with this. Except I wasted my time on finishing the series.

I also found a lot of the world ideas (most of the same ones you mentioned) pretty cool, but the execution was so poor. Also Dick Rahl was insufferable, and pretty much an obnoxious Gary Stu. As you mentioned, wtf was with his suddenly skill at sculpture? That shit takes years of practice. I almost always found it more fun reading about the other characters.

And yeah, as the series went on, it just got more pretentious and preachy. It's damn irritating reading something and feeling that you're being talked down to. And it's so irritating reading stuff by someone who comes off as so damn self-righteous. Of course, it also doesn't help that I find his ideology contemptible.

I realize that yeah, Erikson puts a ton of philosophy into his books, too. But he's not douchebaggy about it and writes it in an interesting way.

[Aptorian]

No, no. This was no chicken. This was evil manifest. Shooo.

[pat5150]

Got through Faith of the Fallen, which put me down for the count...

Patrick

[The Tyrant Lizard]

In defence of the chicken it wasnt just a random evil chicken - or even random evil personified, there is a loosely available magical reason for it's existence.

I think the reason WFR stands up as a stand alone novel and the others dont is because it is presented as such while the others are all made as part of the ten book series. Although the lack of foresight by Goodkind is laughable. Aside from Jagang he doesnt make the slightest effort to introduce any of the super baddies before the current book they appear in.

There are quite a lot of things I liked about the books (characters, fight scenes, death scenes, even some of the plot twists) although almost everyone of them had an overwhelmingly annoying plot line involved where we the reader knew about something that was going on, but the protagonists didnt. This would have been quite acceptable in one or two books, but by book ten it became insufferably annoying. I was left feeling that TG is something of a saddist and enjoys making people suffer. (not just the characters, but also the readers too.)

Further more, the eventual end to the ten book series was a total let down. While I did like some parts, I fairly waded through others, and the reward at the end wasnt really worth it.

And one last thing just to stick the boot into TG, there is a Author's Foreword at the start of one of the later books where he urges the reader not to rush through this book that has taken him so long to write, but to carefully read and acknowledge every word in case you rush and miss some of the multi layered detail presented.

[Rhand]

I'm gonna win this contest hands down, for I've not read the entire series only once but TWICE.

Disliked the endless repeating (even in books 7 and 8 he's repeating things about book 1), the massive preachy shitstorm he unleashes every book, his wordvomit that seems to turn him on* and the horribly flawed argument that spending time to kill Jagang was useless because they're fighting an idea, not a man. Apart from those things I like his books and he has written some of the most awesome scenes in fantasy that I've read to this day.

Edit: after reading the previous post I have to add: the end SUCKS. Seriously, that was utter crap. Felt like reading a fairytale where good trumps bad without breaking a sweat, or as we say it in Belgium: 'between the soup and the potatoes (between the first course and the main course).




*Example: "Zedd droned on about overlapping transpositional forks and triple duplexes bound to conjugated roots compromised by precession and sequential, proportional, binary inversions shrouding flawed bifurcations that the formulas revealed which could only be detected through Subtractive levorotatory."

This post has been edited by Rhand: 14 May 2011 - 09:40 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

TWICE?????

Goodkind may be a sadist but you, my friend, are clearly a masochist.

Good grief. to answer the topic, I think either 4th or 5th book for me.

[MTS]

I got through Wizard's First Rule, didn't get any farther. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be, but some parts still annoyed me enough to not bother going for the second. Also, collective opinion stated it's probably the highlight of the series, so I figured I'd get out while I still had eyes left to bleed.

[Aptorian]

Briar King, on 14 May 2011 - 10:06 PM, said:

Ive got a Debt of Bones paperback when I was working as a Manager at BAM and we had to recall these because on the copyrights page instead of Goodkind it had Robert Jordan listed as the author....lol I wonder if these books will be worth anything good?

Oh the irony. I wonder if some intern was trolling.

[Tsundoku]

Illuyankas, on 13 May 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

Battle Plaptypus, on 13 May 2011 - 06:52 PM, said:

Assuming you read Book 1 and 2, why don't you put forth some arguments on why these two books are awful? That way we could have discussion that doesn't just revolve around people calling my taste in books into question and amusing smilies that don't really add anything to the discussion.

I took the time to write out a couple of paragraphs pointing out some aspects of the books that I enjoyed, why don't you do the same?

That would imply there were any enjoyable aspects of the books in the first place (also stop overreacting man jeez)

As for the books, I'm going to go all analogy on you for a moment.

There's a chef, who has prepared an enormous banquet. Multiple courses, various different kinds of servings, the whole works. He's even so generous as to let you pay up to whichever course you want to stop at! Now, this deal sounds too good to be true, so you speak to the people leaving the restaurant after trying it. It's not good at all. Most people suffered through the first few courses, and are perfectly willing to tell you what kind of ingredients the chef used. Excrement. His own, boiling hot excrement, served fresh from his behind, mixed in with incredibly boring side dishes that were bulk-ordered from the nearest supermarket, the same kind that are in every single massproduced diner nowadays. Others enjoyed the first few handfuls - perhaps they really like even the most overused dishes if there's a different 'sauce' on them - only stopping when they were served live scorpions and ebola cocktails along with supersized versions of the chef's liquid foulness. You don't believe them. Surely no one would eat enough shit to fund this madman's multiple defecations? They see your disbelief, written on your face, and decide they have to show you what you've missed. One of them, pale and unsteady on his feet, gives you a bag. He tells you, "For proof." You open it, and recoil from the stench. It's appalling! There's no redeeming factors to this, it smells worse than a septic tank! Because you're committed now, your trembling hand dips a finger into the sordid morass of gunk and faeces in the bag, then, arm quivering so hard drops fall off the globule of horror staining your finger and hit the ground, smoking, you touch your tongue to it.

When you come to, you're covered in your own vomit and you've been dragged to a corner. You can taste blood, which you're overjoyed by, because it means you can still taste. The figure who gave you the bag, vindication shining in his ruined features, tells you, "That was course five. Not even halfway through." Your stomach, aching and distraught, clenches reflexively and you wince in pain. From behind the people surrounding your prostrate form, you hear a shout, "The side dishes are delicious, you philistines!" before a series of bloody-sounding coughs drowns out his painfilled cries. Another sits in a corner, curled into the fetal position, whimpering to himself, "The first weren't so bad, the first weren't so bad, the first weren't so bad..." Someone asks you, "So, want to try the first course? It's good. Kind of." You punch him in the face.

THERE WAS THAT SUBTLE ENOUGH FOR YOU GUYS I THINK I COULD BE SUBTLER IF I TRIED

Sounds more like my experience of Chapter 1 of "Twilight".

I read WFR (secondhand, thankfully) and went "Meh".

The spleen that is regularly vented here and elsewhere is highly entertaining though.

[Kanese S's]

One of the common accusations leveled against Goodkind is that he rips off Jordan. Hence, irony or some trolling intern.