[amphibian]

I worked with a former child soldier at Home Depot for a few months. He grew from being exactly the merciless savage Apt wants to read about into an adult who seized the lifeline of a refugee camp spot and eventual emigration to the States in the spate of about... a year as a fifteen year old. It was absolutely crazy hearing his stories about the transformation - I didn't ask about the actual "soldier" experiences because those are sad and twisted memories that I don't really want to have another human being recall, re-experience and then package up for my consumption as an interested stranger - and how quickly it happened.

I do maintain that Apt may have points, despite my chiming in for the fast transformation of Jorg being believable.

The history behind Jorg's actions or even those of his father and the other important players seemed to almost always be of the "greying" variety - making good actions seem less so and bad actions less so. People in that universe generally acted for reasons, created long-range plans and Jorg kind of blew everything apart everywhere by his virtuoso ability to be instinctive and yet make it work into a coherent plan. That is what I most enjoyed - seeing how the plans were developed and how Jorg could take them apart by being who he was.

I do wish he'd managed to survive longer - an Emperor of his caliber launching new campaigns into North Africa or into Asia to fight Builders would have been absolutely phenomenal to read. However, that might have been really difficult to write or not as interesting as this new Prince of Fools trilogy.

[Aptorian]

Even though Mark Lawrence stated in the back of the last book that he wanted to give Jorg a true ending, rather than stringing out the series into ever more thin excuses for making a buck, I could actually easily see Jorg returning.

Maybe what Jorg did was just a magical reset and the wheel will begin turning again. If all that is needed to change reality is a strong enough will or desire, then Jorg's son or somebody else could perceivably call his father back from the dead. There is a digital ghost of Jorg. With the data they have and a DNA sample the builders could clone Jorg. Or put him inside a "clockwork man". Maybe something threatens Jorgs family and he claws his way out of hell or heaven or where ever he found a place to rest.

But I do admire Lawrence willingness to kill a potential cash cow for the sake of making Jorgs ending meaningful.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 27 January 2014 - 07:02 PM

[worry]

I don't think the church/molestation thing is trite at all. In fact, I've only seen it in fiction very occasionally, and way more often in journalism/documentary/memoir. Maybe it seems trite because it happens so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so often in real life, that a fictional depiction of this overwhelming reality just seems like piling on?

[Aptorian]

But does it really happen that often? I've never read any documentation on the theoretical probability of there occurring child molestation in any given Church, because the Catholic church won't release such information of course, but I like to think that the majority of the people who actually have faith in god are actually motivated by good, not their own lust. Don't get me wrong, mankinds ability to be shitty never ceases to amaze me, but I don't think most Church people are child molesters. Or that they for that matter would just stand idly by and let a fellow churck member fuck the alter boy.

I'd just like for once to see a story where a priest isn't shown as being a complete sack of shit. I guess we get that in Gormst, who by the way seems to become a better human being over the course of the books.

[worry]

Well it doesn't happen often in the book either, statistically speaking. It seemingly happens every time this royally appointed Bishop visits the monastery and abuses his power and position (which might be annually but seemed even less often than that). So in that sense, to answer your question, I'd say yes it happens at least that often. Also, the head monk does what he can, and saves one boy, but there's not much you can do against a church superior with noble/royal blood. I don't doubt there are "righteous" men aplenty, but the fact that the modern church happens to be the major vestige of medieval Europe left, just tells me how much worse it must have been centuries ago.

[polishgenius]

Despite being Catholic, I don't have a problem with justified attacks on the church, and the pedophile scandal certainly needs attacking - although in this instance I got a cheap sort of feeling from it, that using it to make easy villains rather shrugs aside the deep horror of the actual situation, and also that it's certainly not as easy as 'CATHOLIC CHURCH ALL EVIL' and painting it that way doesn't really help matters any.


However aside from all that, this was problematic in an in-story way - namely, that the Church in the first two books had been a negative but largely background influence over Jorg and the plot of the books, and that iirc Jorg's molestation hadn't been mentioned before. So the sudden appearance of these elements (not just the molestation, but the general grotesquery of the Church as a whole) in the story rather came out of nowhere. It did feel that somewhere between book 2 and book 3, Lawrence started to feel really strongly negatively about the church, and felt the need to put it his book. Which is fair enough but did weaken the plot for me.






As for Jorg's personal journey- I liked it. It did feel a bit artificial, but then it was- it felt pretty obvious to me that the sorcerer's influence was pushing Jorg down a darker path than he'd otherwise have taken in book one, and on the obverse in book 2, Jorg spends more time being unnaturally nicer than he should be because his darkest parts have gone into the box. It's at the finale there that we really see him fully formed for the first time, and book 3 becomes about him finding his new equilibrium. Which he finds in the absolutely immense scene in which he murders the fuck out of his own guards in order to get them to protect his son - this being the point that he realises that he's capable of loving, and of doing what needs to be done to protect the world for his son - but at the same time he's a total bastard who will do some horrible things to ensure that safety.

[worry]

IIRC, specific references by name to Jorg's encounter with this particular Bishop were made since the first book (possibly the second, my memory there is mushy), and there's a preacher besides Gomst that he kills rather brutally early on. I think the path to the monastery flashback is rather well laid.

[Mark Lawrence]

polishgenius, on 27 January 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

It did feel that somewhere between book 2 and book 3, Lawrence started to feel really strongly negatively about the church, and felt the need to put it his book. Which is fair enough but did weaken the plot for me.

It's fine to feel this way. We should of course remember the very real divide between how you feel and 'what is'. King and Emperor were written in the same year and in the week between finishing one and starting the next no great church-related epiphany struck me. And even if it had - no fiction I have ever written has been in any part an attempt to convey my world view, politics, religious feelings etc.

[polishgenius]

Fair enough, I was being a bit presumptuous then.

[Aptorian]

Mark Lawrence, on 28 January 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 27 January 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

It did feel that somewhere between book 2 and book 3, Lawrence started to feel really strongly negatively about the church, and felt the need to put it his book. Which is fair enough but did weaken the plot for me.

It's fine to feel this way. We should of course remember the very real divide between how you feel and 'what is'. King and Emperor were written in the same year and in the week between finishing one and starting the next no great church-related epiphany struck me. And even if it had - no fiction I have ever written has been in any part an attempt to convey my world view, politics, religious feelings etc.

You wrote both of them in one year? Damn, that is a lot of pages.

What is your daily writing routine like? You must be churning out ten thousand words a day at that speed.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 28 January 2014 - 12:18 PM

[Mark Lawrence]

Maybe Apt, on 28 January 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Mark Lawrence, on 28 January 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 27 January 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

It did feel that somewhere between book 2 and book 3, Lawrence started to feel really strongly negatively about the church, and felt the need to put it his book. Which is fair enough but did weaken the plot for me.

It's fine to feel this way. We should of course remember the very real divide between how you feel and 'what is'. King and Emperor were written in the same year and in the week between finishing one and starting the next no great church-related epiphany struck me. And even if it had - no fiction I have ever written has been in any part an attempt to convey my world view, politics, religious feelings etc.

You wrote both of them in one year? Damn, that is a lot of pages.

What is your daily writing routine like? You must be churning out ten thousand words a day at that speed.

My routine has always been to write when I feel like writing and have the time. Having a day job and caring for my very disabled youngest daughter mean that having the time is the bottleneck. I tend to write late at night. I guess I averaged about 700 words a day that year. That would include many days with 0 words written and some with 5,000.

[amphibian]

I am a walking example of what happens when parents put a staggering amount of time into taking care of a disabled youngster. Early on, the experts were telling my parents that I'd grow up essentially dumb as a brick and was destined to a life in a near asylum situation due to being 90 to 95% deaf. This was in the mid to late 80s in the USA by the way. My parents refused to accept this and now I'm a lawyer, have done a ton of things and am a fairly normal person who usually doesn't hear/understand people because I don't pay attention for strangely large chunks of time and not because of my deafness.

Best of luck to you and yours, Mr. Lawrence.

[Stormcat]

Amphibian I tried to +rep you but I guess I am out of rep for the day. (my daughter is blind and is working on her college degree to be a special ed teacher. They told me the same stuff about her)

I guess I will have to give book two a chance. I read through this and it seems like it progresses in a way I would enjoy. So another book added to my TBR stack. /sigh

[QuickTidal]

Stormcat, on 28 January 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Amphibian I tried to +rep you but I guess I am out of rep for the day. (my daughter is blind and is working on her college degree to be a special ed teacher. They told me the same stuff about her)

I guess I will have to give book two a chance. I read through this and it seems like it progresses in a way I would enjoy. So another book added to my TBR stack. /sigh

I repped him for you Stormcat.

[Sinisdar Toste]

im not even gonna try to skim this thread to avoid spoilers so i just wanna give my impression of the broken empire and jorg. the jarring familiarity of everything is awesome and the little flagsticks of time periods that sometimes stick out are delightful. like perechaise covered in indestructable resin.

jorg and the hundred war and that mindset reminds me of the skathandi tribe from the prince of nothing. jorg himself is like a mix of cnaiur urs skiotha and kvothe kingkiller. cunning and cruel, precocious and ferocious. what sets him apart is his lack of conscience. anyway, back to king of thorns and see you at the end!

[Mark Lawrence]

Stormcat, on 28 January 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Amphibian I tried to +rep you but I guess I am out of rep for the day. (my daughter is blind and is working on her college degree to be a special ed teacher. They told me the same stuff about her)

I guess I will have to give book two a chance. I read through this and it seems like it progresses in a way I would enjoy. So another book added to my TBR stack. /sigh

My youngest daughter has cerebral palsy (brain damage from lack of oxygen at birth). She's going to be 10 soon. She's registered blind, can't use her limbs or hands, can't sit without support, is doubly incontinent, can't speak, can't eat very well and is on an incredibly strict diet to control her epilepsy. Her muscle constrictions have pulled her hips out of socket and twisted her wrists and ankles...

That said, she has normal intelligence, can see enough to recognise people, loves to laugh, loves stories and walks, has friends over from school, is learning to control a powered wheelchair with head switches and a computer with eye-gaze technology. And she wrote this book (with my help) to raise money for the hospice that supports us.

http://wheel-mouse.b.../blog-post.html

I doubt she'll be a lawyer but as long as she's happy then so am I.

This post has been edited by Mark Lawrence: 29 January 2014 - 12:38 PM

[worry]

That book is hilarious and definitely something I will read to my nephews.

[Stormcat]

I got it from Amazon and gave a shout out on my FB for anyone else that may be interested. Great book. Seriously... robot poop? What kid would not love this?

[Aptorian]

Mark Lawrence, on 29 January 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

And she wrote this book (with my help) to raise money for the hospice that supports us.

http://wheel-mouse.b.../blog-post.html

Still a better love story than Twillight.

And better rhymes than Pittbul.

[Starling]

I just got around to finishing this series, and I absolutely love it. I loved the dystopian-future universe, I loved the lead-up, I loved the glimpse of the Red Queen, I loved the end, I've pre-ordered Prince of Fools.

I disagree with the people talking about Jorg becoming a better person, I don't think he does. At the end of the series, he will still happily murder you as soon as look at you, no reason required. He'll still do anything to get his own way, including murdering people, TELLING everyone about it, and then having the audacity to expect the rest of the hundred to vote for him. I think all Jorg really develops is a sense of pragmatism. Murdering everyone he feels like murdering isn't going to get him what he wants, so he makes friends and alliances, but he'd still happily stab them in the back if it came down to it. He gets better at recognising his own weaknesses, but I don't think he becomes a better person. The only person he really loves is his son, but he still recognises that that love doesn't make him a better person, and he is unable to raise William in the way Jorg feels he deserves. That is a lovely moment of self-recognition, and once again shows that Jorg will do anything to get his way, including killing himself to give his son a better future.