[TheConsult]

Long time reader and long time lurker (was actually an active posting member back in 2003!)... and just finished TCG.

Overall, kind of... meh. There was no earth shattering revelation at the end, and everything that happened was rather... expected. Felt the main story line was just going through the motions towards the end of the book.

Anyway, onto topic (didn't find any similar topic in search.)

I would loved to have learned more about the alliance between the FA, Liosan, and the Nah'ruk:
An alliance takes place when different groups of people have a common goal, so what was the common goal here? The FA wanted to wipe out all human life - The Liosan want to wipe out the Andii - The Nah'ruk want to wipe out the Che'Mall. Is it simply a case of "You help me kill my enemy and I'll help you kill yours?". This is fine for the FA - the Nah'ruk pretty much wipe out the Che'Mall army and drastically reduce the impact they had on the final battle in Kolanse. But in what manner were the FA aiding the Nah'ruk? They didn't send any army to help the Nah'ruk in their battle...The FA definitely seemed to get the sweet end of that deal.

And then how do the Liosan come into it - they had practically nothing to do with the FA and Nah'ruk storyline.

Please, share your thoughts!

-TC

[worry]

I don't have answers for everything, but I'm willing to bet it was the NR who gave the TL the dragon they sacrificed. And the TL weren't expecting that kind of resistance, particularly the Shake with a genuine Watch in place with Hust sword. They are essentially stymied before they can achieve their first goal, let alone follow through with a master plan. I'd imagine having KG as your base would make a great launching pad for a whole host of conquests. If the FA got the best of the bargain, it's probably because they were the brokers of the whole deal.

[King Bear]

 worrywort, on 10 May 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

I don't have answers for everything, but I'm willing to bet it was the NR who gave the TL the dragon they sacrificed. And the TL weren't expecting that kind of resistance, particularly the Shake with a genuine Watch in place with Hust sword. They are essentially stymied before they can achieve their first goal, let alone follow through with a master plan. I'd imagine having KG as your base would make a great launching pad for a whole host of conquests. If the FA got the best of the bargain, it's probably because they were the brokers of the whole deal.

This was probably explained in DoD but what exactly is a Watch, and was being a Watch a large part of what made Yedan so badass?

[HoosierDaddy]

 Quickie Ben, on 10 May 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 10 May 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

I don't have answers for everything, but I'm willing to bet it was the NR who gave the TL the dragon they sacrificed. And the TL weren't expecting that kind of resistance, particularly the Shake with a genuine Watch in place with Hust sword. They are essentially stymied before they can achieve their first goal, let alone follow through with a master plan. I'd imagine having KG as your base would make a great launching pad for a whole host of conquests. If the FA got the best of the bargain, it's probably because they were the brokers of the whole deal.

This was probably explained in DoD but what exactly is a Watch, and was being a Watch a large part of what made Yedan so badass?

The Watch were the elite Shake forces that protected KG from Liosan incursions at Lightfall, assumedly officered by the Shake princes. The title passed down hereditary lines like Twilight.

[King Bear]

 HoosierDaddy, on 10 May 2011 - 04:18 AM, said:

 Quickie Ben, on 10 May 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 10 May 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

I don't have answers for everything, but I'm willing to bet it was the NR who gave the TL the dragon they sacrificed. And the TL weren't expecting that kind of resistance, particularly the Shake with a genuine Watch in place with Hust sword. They are essentially stymied before they can achieve their first goal, let alone follow through with a master plan. I'd imagine having KG as your base would make a great launching pad for a whole host of conquests. If the FA got the best of the bargain, it's probably because they were the brokers of the whole deal.

This was probably explained in DoD but what exactly is a Watch, and was being a Watch a large part of what made Yedan so badass?

The Watch were the elite Shake forces that protected KG from Liosan incursions at Lightfall, assumedly officered by the Shake princes. The title passed down hereditary lines like Twilight.

Thanks!

Edit: oh shit I just neg repped you. Could a mod change that to pos rep? I'll pos rep another couple your posts Hoosierdaddy in the meantime to make up for it.

This post has been edited by Quickie Ben: 10 May 2011 - 04:29 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

the watch is a title that has been passed on since the days of the sundering of emurlahn, when it referred to an entire company, iirc. being the watch is what gave yedan a lot of that ancient knowledge that he and twilight exchange in DoD. what made him unstoppable (at least till the end) was the hust sword itself.Edit: damn you hoosier! sneakin in on my infodump

on topic for the thread, i think the FA probably just told the nah'ruk where their enemy was, and that was enough for the nah'ruk - it was all they really wanted. if QB and gesler can be believed, the nah'ruk are bred into mindless conformity and are so singular of purpose that it seems to me that they wouldn't much care for any deal, or whether they got the short end of it. they wanted to wipe out the che'malle, the pures gave them the location of the last rooted - end of story, as far as the nah'ruk are concerned. turns out it was end of story literally.

how do you negotiate with a hive mind like that anyway? do you address all 40,000 of them? or do they choose one to be the spokesperson?

interesting notion that the nah'ruk might be the ones who captured kessobahn as well. makes sense. they've captured dragons before.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 10 May 2011 - 04:30 AM

[King Bear]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 10 May 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

the watch is a title that has been passed on since the days of the sundering of emurlahn, when it referred to an entire company, iirc. being the watch is what gave yedan a lot of that ancient knowledge that he and twilight exchange in DoD. what made him unstoppable (at least till the end) was the hust sword itself.Edit: damn you hoosier! sneakin in on my infodump

on topic for the thread, i think the FA probably just told the nah'ruk where their enemy was, and that was enough for the nah'ruk - it was all they really wanted. if QB and gesler can be believed, the nah'ruk are bred into mindless conformity and are so singular of purpose that it seems to me that they wouldn't much care for any deal, or whether they got the short end of it. they wanted to wipe out the che'malle, the pures gave them the location of the last rooted - end of story, as far as the nah'ruk are concerned. turns out it was end of story literally.

how do you negotiate with a hive mind like that anyway? do you address all 40,000 of them? or do they choose one to be the spokesperson?

interesting notion that the nah'ruk might be the ones who captured kessobahn as well. makes sense. they've captured dragons before.

I like your explanation of the FA and nah'ruk "bargain". It's simple, elegant, in character for both the FA and nah'ruk and makes perfect sense.

Thanks for answering my question about the powers of the Watch and what made Yedan so tough.

[Midnight]

Also, it is possible that the various parties in the alliance weren't necessarily allied with each other, just with the Forkrul Assail. So, although I like the idea of the Nah'Ruk giving the Liosan Kessobahn it could have been that each was allied only with the Forkrul Assail and not with each other.

One thing that confused me about the alliances was that there is mention (don't have my book with me so I don't know where) that the FA were also allied with the Eleint. But there seems to be no evidence of that in the book...maybe they allied with Kessobahn and tricked him into getting killed by the Liosan?

[Ozymandiac]

You're talking about an alliance of the bad guys: Tiste Liosan - Forkrul Assail - K'Chain Nah'Ruk.

I know there were references to an alliance of FA-KCNR, but I don't recall any references to an alliance of FA-TL. Couldn't it just have been that the Tiste Liosan simply decided this was good time to invade? The TL can clearly be classified as bad guys, but where does it say they had made any alliances?

[D'rek]

 Ozymandiac, on 09 July 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

You're talking about an alliance of the bad guys: Tiste Liosan - Forkrul Assail - K'Chain Nah'Ruk.

I know there were references to an alliance of FA-KCNR, but I don't recall any references to an alliance of FA-TL. Couldn't it just have been that the Tiste Liosan simply decided this was good time to invade? The TL can clearly be classified as bad guys, but where does it say they had made any alliances?

It seems pretty definite that the Errant (and Sechul?) met with Calm just after Draconus arrived while Paran was blindsided. There're references from both Calm and the Errant's PoVs. I think the fact that Calm and her buddies kept it hidden from Reverance is why many of us had a hard time catching it the first time through.

I re-read the first quarter or so of TCG a while back and I think there was a little reference in the Liosan parts to meeting with the FA. I could be wrong on that, though.

Nevertheless, it's clear the Liosan's main motive for their invasion is the timing. Osseric's avatar dying in HoC and L'oric never sending Greyfrog to take over that role (as far as we can tell) lead to the revolution in Kurald Thyrllan, hence why Kadagar Fant goes on so much at the very start about how Father Light and Osseric betrayed/abandoned them, and they must follow only themselves now (and also talk of killing all the priests). After securing his rule, Kadagar sent the HoL to try and take Dragnipur and then captured Kessobahn to secure more power for the Liosan and then, believing in the ultimate destiny of the Liosan, prepared an invasion of Kharkanas and the world. If there were FA ambassadors that visited, their desires would have coincided nicely with Kadagar's own desires.

The Nah'ruk and eleint are also sometimes referenced as being allies of the FA, but I think those are more occurences of circumstance - the eleint being drawn into the world through the gate and the Nah'ruk coming to fight the Che'malle (but nudged by the Errant into the Bonehunters' path).

[worry]

Interesting that L'oric doesn't send Greyfrog to be the KT protector, that a whole mass of TL feel betrayed by Osserc and FL as a result (at least, as added insult to injury), and yet L'oric has strong enough ties to another TL army that don't seem to share that view at all. In fact, the four who are searching for FL are part of this camp. So the division might be those who haven't lost faith vs. those who have, the death of the warren guardian being the last straw. I wonder what the timing is on all this, cuz there's some dynastic elements to it too, though I've already forgotten some of the details. How long has Kadagar been preparing this invasion?

[Ozymandiac]

 D, on 09 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

 Ozymandiac, on 09 July 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

You're talking about an alliance of the bad guys: Tiste Liosan - Forkrul Assail - K'Chain Nah'Ruk.

I know there were references to an alliance of FA-KCNR, but I don't recall any references to an alliance of FA-TL. Couldn't it just have been that the Tiste Liosan simply decided this was good time to invade? The TL can clearly be classified as bad guys, but where does it say they had made any alliances?

It seems pretty definite that the Errant (and Sechul?) met with Calm just after Draconus arrived while Paran was blindsided. There're references from both Calm and the Errant's PoVs. I think the fact that Calm and her buddies kept it hidden from Reverance is why many of us had a hard time catching it the first time through.

I re-read the first quarter or so of TCG a while back and I think there was a little reference in the Liosan parts to meeting with the FA. I could be wrong on that, though.

Nevertheless, it's clear the Liosan's main motive for their invasion is the timing. Osseric's avatar dying in HoC and L'oric never sending Greyfrog to take over that role (as far as we can tell) lead to the revolution in Kurald Thyrllan, hence why Kadagar Fant goes on so much at the very start about how Father Light and Osseric betrayed/abandoned them, and they must follow only themselves now (and also talk of killing all the priests). After securing his rule, Kadagar sent the HoL to try and take Dragnipur and then captured Kessobahn to secure more power for the Liosan and then, believing in the ultimate destiny of the Liosan, prepared an invasion of Kharkanas and the world. If there were FA ambassadors that visited, their desires would have coincided nicely with Kadagar's own desires.

The Nah'ruk and eleint are also sometimes referenced as being allies of the FA, but I think those are more occurences of circumstance - the eleint being drawn into the world through the gate and the Nah'ruk coming to fight the Che'malle (but nudged by the Errant into the Bonehunters' path).

Thanks, I never spotted the references to a FA-TL alliance, but it was indeed my first read.

The Nah'Ruk are definitely in an alliance with the Forkrul Assail, though. I can't find the right page, but at some point one of the FA's Watered warns the Pure on the Spite that there are lizards coming to attack the Spire. The Pure then panics and exclaims something like 'What, K'Chain Che'Malle? But the Nah'Ruk promised to kill them all!'
So there's definitely some sort of alliance there.

[MTS]

I've been doing a slow re-read of TCG over the past fortnight or so, and come across a few mentions of the alliances that I missed the first time round.

Quote

Steady breaths behind her, a source of strength, succour for her will to complete this climb, to push away the aches, the labours of a body as battered as the earth itself. She could remember the day peace was declared dead. The day the Forkrul Assail stood tall, for the first time, and saw before them the future, and the necessity they must answer.
Since then...so many unanticipated allies.

Quote

And I tell myself that I see peace in the future – the peace of my childhood, the peace of harmony, the peace of a silent world. All we need to reach it, is a little blood. A little blood. But, Sister Reverence, then I look into your ancient eyes, and I see how the hunger of our allies has infected you. The Tiste Liosan, the Eleint, the Lord and Lady of the Beast Hold – but all they desire is chaos, anarchy, destruction, the end of the Age of Gods and the Age of Humans. Like you, they thirst for blood, but not a little blood. No. Oceans, oceans of blood.

Quote

Kurald Galain falls to vengeful Tiste Liosan, and they walk that path right into the heart of Shadow, ousting Shadowthrone, and from there they march onward, to this world, joining with the Forkrul Assail in a tide of slaughter, until not one city is left standing, not one field planted, not one human child born into the world. Do you want the rest?’
‘There’s more?’
‘The Elder Gods, having at last freed the Otataral Dragon, succeed in the annihilation of magic, barring that paid for in blood – unless of course Korabas is killed, but if that happens it will mean that the Eleint,who are now or will soon be loose in this realm, will have killed it – and they will in turn seek domination,not just of this realm, but of all realms, delivering chaos wherever they go. And so, even with us wiped from the earth, terrible powers will contest the claim to our legacy. The gods will be dead, magic a thirst only fools would dare invite, and … well, should I go on?’

[worry]

That speaks to another motivations of ST and Cots. The TL (and allies) specifically wanted to oust them from Shadow.

[D'rek]

 worrywort, on 09 July 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Interesting that L'oric doesn't send Greyfrog to be the KT protector, that a whole mass of TL feel betrayed by Osserc and FL as a result (at least, as added insult to injury), and yet L'oric has strong enough ties to another TL army that don't seem to share that view at all. In fact, the four who are searching for FL are part of this camp. So the division might be those who haven't lost faith vs. those who have, the death of the warren guardian being the last straw. I wonder what the timing is on all this, cuz there's some dynastic elements to it too, though I've already forgotten some of the details. How long has Kadagar been preparing this invasion?

I agree, the Liosan in SW did seem like devout Osseric/FL followers so it would make sense for them to have split off from the rest due to Kadagar's change of the racial religion. If we assume that the death of Osseric's avatar in HoC was the catalyst for Kadagar's upheaval of the system, then it can only have been a handful of years at most between Kadagar's upheaval and the events of TCG. Whether Kadagar was already in charge back in HoC or if it was still his father is unknown. Aparal Forge indicates sending the HoL in TtH was one of Kadagar's moves, so it looks like he's been gathering power since then at least, which is maybe up to a year before the invasion in TCG. That gives him several years to have purged the Liosan loyal to Osseric/FL, seems reasonable.

[LordofTheFallen]

I think the Liosan weren't associated with the Assail at all. It was said in the book that once they took Kharkanas (since that was expected) they would lead their armies through the realm and kill everyone, then push through to the earth or whatever. Then you have an army of FA and Nah'ruk pushing from one side of the world, and a Liosan army pushing from the other side.

I think it would be safe to assume that once they all meet everyone else would be dead and they simply fight, most likely with the Liosan being completely destroyed (minus the dragons) the FA's armies completely destroyed except for the Pures, and the Nah'ruk left as the supreme race.

Luckily that didn't happen.

[D'rek]

 LordofTheFallen, on 11 July 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think the Liosan weren't associated with the Assail at all. It was said in the book that once they took Kharkanas (since that was expected) they would lead their armies through the realm and kill everyone, then push through to the earth or whatever. Then you have an army of FA and Nah'ruk pushing from one side of the world, and a Liosan army pushing from the other side.

I think it would be safe to assume that once they all meet everyone else would be dead and they simply fight, most likely with the Liosan being completely destroyed (minus the dragons) the FA's armies completely destroyed except for the Pures, and the Nah'ruk left as the supreme race.

Luckily that didn't happen.

Or maybe the FA ambassadors just weren't completely honest with their destroy-everything plans on the other side...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 11 July 2011 - 02:21 AM

[LordofTheFallen]

Well it seems that these "destroy-everything" guys really sucked at their jobs.

The Nah'ruk were completely destroyed (though admittedly without Sinn and Grub they would have killed everyone.)
The Pures were getting killed left and right, and their human armies were decent at best.
And I will give creds to anyone who can give proof of the Liosan actually winning an ingagement. Any at all.

[Abyss]

 LordofTheFallen, on 11 July 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

...And I will give creds to anyone who can give proof of the Liosan actually winning an ingagement. Any at all.

I realize that they verge on being the Stormtroopers of the series, but historically it seems that they kicked the Andiis' butts at least once before they last bunch fled Kharkanas and the Shore was sealed.

[Abyss]

 D, on 09 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

...It seems pretty definite that the Errant (and Sechul?) met with Calm just after Draconus arrived while Paran was blindsided. There're references from both Calm and the Errant's PoVs. I think the fact that Calm and her buddies kept it hidden from Reverance is why many of us had a hard time catching it the first time through. ...

HB, p137 or so, Sech and Errant discuss their conversation with Calm, where she assured them that Icarium was out of play.

So we have a definite link between the FA and the EGs. Altho in that same chat, Sech and Errant argue over whether the FA should be allowed to succeed (they decide they should because the EGs can just rule over whatever survivors are left... which is funny since in a scene just after that Reverance comments on her intention to kill ALL humans).