[tiam]

D, on 10 July 2011 - 02:51 AM, said:

worrywort, on 09 July 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Interesting that L'oric doesn't send Greyfrog to be the KT protector, that a whole mass of TL feel betrayed by Osserc and FL as a result (at least, as added insult to injury), and yet L'oric has strong enough ties to another TL army that don't seem to share that view at all. In fact, the four who are searching for FL are part of this camp. So the division might be those who haven't lost faith vs. those who have, the death of the warren guardian being the last straw. I wonder what the timing is on all this, cuz there's some dynastic elements to it too, though I've already forgotten some of the details. How long has Kadagar been preparing this invasion?

I agree, the Liosan in SW did seem like devout Osseric/FL followers so it would make sense for them to have split off from the rest due to Kadagar's change of the racial religion. If we assume that the death of Osseric's avatar in HoC was the catalyst for Kadagar's upheaval of the system, then it can only have been a handful of years at most between Kadagar's upheaval and the events of TCG. Whether Kadagar was already in charge back in HoC or if it was still his father is unknown. Aparal Forge indicates sending the HoL in TtH was one of Kadagar's moves, so it looks like he's been gathering power since then at least, which is maybe up to a year before the invasion in TCG. That gives him several years to have purged the Liosan loyal to Osseric/FL, seems reasonable.

YEs there was a thread on this a while back where the military arm is the one with Loric and OSsercs (one of many) daughter. The Liosan conscripts were stealing weapons suggesting a citizen militia. If we use the end ROTCG and TTH happen at roughly the same time idea the Yath appearing at the end of ROTCG caused the army under Loric to leave. Kadagar took over during the course of TTH after the army left and sent the HOL out to claim Dragnipur.

THe timeline is cramped but we forget these books cover around 6 months + each

[Abyss]

Actually Kadagar could have been actively forming his own contingent for way longer. What little we know of the Liosan suggests they weren't utterly ignorant of Loric's stand-in, nor were they all cuddly and happy together.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 13 July 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

D, on 09 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

...It seems pretty definite that the Errant (and Sechul?) met with Calm just after Draconus arrived while Paran was blindsided. There're references from both Calm and the Errant's PoVs. I think the fact that Calm and her buddies kept it hidden from Reverance is why many of us had a hard time catching it the first time through. ...

HB, p137 or so, Sech and Errant discuss their conversation with Calm, where she assured them that Icarium was out of play.

So we have a definite link between the FA and the EGs. Altho in that same chat, Sech and Errant argue over whether the FA should be allowed to succeed (they decide they should because the EGs can just rule over whatever survivors are left... which is funny since in a scene just after that Reverance comments on her intention to kill ALL humans).

That was Reverance's intent, but Calm and her allies were seeking to subvert that a bit, weren't they?

[Sinisdar Toste]

D, on 15 July 2011 - 02:51 AM, said:

Abyss, on 13 July 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

D, on 09 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

...It seems pretty definite that the Errant (and Sechul?) met with Calm just after Draconus arrived while Paran was blindsided. There're references from both Calm and the Errant's PoVs. I think the fact that Calm and her buddies kept it hidden from Reverance is why many of us had a hard time catching it the first time through. ...

HB, p137 or so, Sech and Errant discuss their conversation with Calm, where she assured them that Icarium was out of play.

So we have a definite link between the FA and the EGs. Altho in that same chat, Sech and Errant argue over whether the FA should be allowed to succeed (they decide they should because the EGs can just rule over whatever survivors are left... which is funny since in a scene just after that Reverance comments on her intention to kill ALL humans).

That was Reverance's intent, but Calm and her allies were seeking to subvert that a bit, weren't they?

indeed, but they didn't bank on king badass just walking off of some fucking boat. oh well

[Gothos]

Of all the 'bad guys', I do find the Liosan the most pathethic, really. A bunch of dragons and a few handfuls of scared conscripts. What? They wanted to invade the world with THAT? What of Assail, Shal-Morzinn, the gorram Malazan Empire, the remaining Andii, Jacuruku's mage overlords?
While the short-tails brought unbelievable raw power, and the Forkrul Assail could very well cleanse the world with their warren using Kaminsod's heart, the Liosan side seems severely lacking.

One thing that escapes my memory - were the Eleint going to go through the gate regardless of Korabas being freed? It might just be that, as infuriating as Errastas might be, he might've just saved the world with Setch and Kilmandros. Just a thought.

PS. I'd like to note that you shouldn't use the general term 'Elder Gods' to describe Errastas and co., as K'rul and Mael are clearly on the 'good' side.


Gothos, wants more books with Draconus.

[Kanese S's]

I agree, more Draconus would be awesome.

The Tiste Liosan were, I think, rather naive. I'm not sure how much contact they had with the rest of the world in the millena preceding DoD/TCG. However, they usually appear as rather arrogant, it seems, vastly underestimating anybody who's not themselves. They may not realize that the world has changed a lot since they last laid eyes upon it, and may have just dismissed humans out of hand as an insignificant obstacle to conquest.

[Kanubis]

Kanese S, on 15 July 2011 - 06:49 AM, said:

The Tiste Liosan were, I think, rather naive. I'm not sure how much contact they had with the rest of the world in the millena preceding DoD/TCG. However, they usually appear as rather arrogant, it seems, vastly underestimating anybody who's not themselves. They may not realize that the world has changed a lot since they last laid eyes upon it, and may have just dismissed humans out of hand as an insignificant obstacle to conquest.

This is my take on it. They think they can win not just to a hugely arrogant overestimation of their power but also because they believe without doubt that they are 'right.'

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 July 2011 - 03:45 AM, said:

D, on 15 July 2011 - 02:51 AM, said:

Abyss, on 13 July 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

D, on 09 July 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

...It seems pretty definite that the Errant (and Sechul?) met with Calm just after Draconus arrived while Paran was blindsided. There're references from both Calm and the Errant's PoVs. I think the fact that Calm and her buddies kept it hidden from Reverance is why many of us had a hard time catching it the first time through. ...

HB, p137 or so, Sech and Errant discuss their conversation with Calm, where she assured them that Icarium was out of play.

So we have a definite link between the FA and the EGs. Altho in that same chat, Sech and Errant argue over whether the FA should be allowed to succeed (they decide they should because the EGs can just rule over whatever survivors are left... which is funny since in a scene just after that Reverance comments on her intention to kill ALL humans).

That was Reverance's intent, but Calm and her allies were seeking to subvert that a bit, weren't they?

indeed, but they didn't bank on king badass just walking off of some fucking boat. oh well

But Sech and Errant spoke with Calm, not Reverance, and then Sech states how the FA plan can't be allowed to succeed.
...unless the version Calm gave them allowed for survivors and Sech was just having a weak moment, which was how it read.

[tiam]

Kanubis, on 15 July 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 15 July 2011 - 06:49 AM, said:

The Tiste Liosan were, I think, rather naive. I'm not sure how much contact they had with the rest of the world in the millena preceding DoD/TCG. However, they usually appear as rather arrogant, it seems, vastly underestimating anybody who's not themselves. They may not realize that the world has changed a lot since they last laid eyes upon it, and may have just dismissed humans out of hand as an insignificant obstacle to conquest.

This is my take on it. They think they can win not just to a hugely arrogant overestimation of their power but also because they believe without doubt that they are 'right.'

Liosan were no different than Dejihm Nebrahl or Bloodeye. Nebrahl thought hed be unassailable. Bloodeye notes that when hes invading Wu that theyd have no championm to throw up against him and this is in Elder times when he runs through the strengths of the Imass Jaghut etc. The Liosan are no different.

Abyss- Kadagar could have formed his own contingent and indeed it seems likely that as son of that noble whose in charge he may well have had more influence. But it seems likely that there couldnt have been a pro or con group about FL. The liosan weve seen are devout so wouldnt tolerate an anti FL presence and would see it as heresy. Therefore it seems Kadagar, while possibly gaining support for the anti FL faction, only acted when Loric had left the city.

[Migol]

I think the only real purpose to the Liosan as far as the FA were concerned was the elimination of Mother Dark; how they planned on killing her even if the shake weren't there isn't clear (maybe taking the Kharkanas throne would enable it?). But regardless, in the Liosan they had an ally with the potential to take out one of the supreme deities in the universe, and from there marching into shadow and killing Shadowthrone/Cotillon and also taking the throne of shadow. That brings plenty to the equation if they can pull it off.

It also seems like as far as FA and Liosan went, they could see eye to eye in terms of purity and justice and all that.