[mayhem]

Here's a thought that just struck me from the Malazan Re-read.

It seems each god at any time, can have one and only one Mortal Sword / Destriant / Shield Anvil at any given time.
See the description from MoI:
"The Last Mortal Sword of Fener's Reve was Fanald of Cawn Vor, who was killed in the Chaining. The last Boar-cloaked Destriant was Ipshank of Korelri, who vanished during the Last Flight of Manask on the Stratem Icefields. Another waited to claim that title, but was cast out from the temple before it came to him, and that man's name has been stricken from all records. It is known, however, that he was from Unta; that he had begun his days as a cutpurse living on its foul streets, and that his casting out from the temple was marked by the singular punishment of Fener's Reve…"

Yet later we have the Grey Swords and the Grey Helms both sworn to the Wolves and both seem to be operating in parallel, at least until RG when the Swords get slaughtered offscreen.

Then it occurred to me, each of the Wolves can have their own set, which would also explain why they sometimes behave differently, possibly depending on which Wolf is giving the orders.

A question for the group though, can anyone think of a God who used the MS/SA/D setup outside of the Gods of War?
Excepting the K'Chain Matron, who still used them in a martial sense, I can't think of any apart from Fener, Treach and the Wolves.

Also, can anyone give me a good description of the difference between the Enkar'al Champion, and Krughava, the Mortal Sword in terms of how they relate to the Wolves?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

mayhem, on 28 April 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Here's a thought that just struck me from the Malazan Re-read.



A question for the group though, can anyone think of a God who used the MS/SA/D setup outside of the Gods of War?
Excepting the K'Chain Matron, who still used them in a martial sense, I can't think of any apart from Fener, Treach and the Wolves.

Feather Witch became the Errant's Destriant and wanted to coerce Udinaas and Brys in the roles of Shield Anvil and Mortal Sword,respectively.

[SpectreofEschaton]

mayhem, on 28 April 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Also, can anyone give me a good description of the difference between the Enkar'al Champion, and Krughava, the Mortal Sword in terms of how they relate to the Wolves?

I'm not positive, but aren't they one for each wolf?

[Salt-Man Z]

Doesn't Clip claim to be Rake's Mortal Sword or something?

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 28 April 2011 - 09:52 PM

[T'renn]

CG Spoiler, beware

Spoiler

Gesler became Feners Mortal sword for a time

[CussersForChristmas]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 28 April 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

CG Spoiler, beware

Spoiler

Gesler became Feners Mortal sword for a time

Really? I thought that line was just Stormy being all suspicious, "This isn't the first time is it?...." I figure they were as close as brothers and if it was true stormy wouldn't have said it with that inflection.

And I thought the Feather Witch, Udinaas, Brys triangle was interesting with the segulah being a derivative of the first empire word for shield anvil.

[Aptorian]

Towards the end, Gesler and Stormy begin glowing red and somebody mentions that they are calling somebody... or something like that... that is why they are a bit distressed after Fener got judochopped by the space sword. They called him and got him killed.

Regarding the Mortal swords. It is a theory that all the seguleh combined are Mortal Swords. And all the Torruld Cabal are Destriants. Yet together they make out the "Shield Anvil" of the Tyrant.

Any god can chose a Mortal Sword, I think the reason why they don't generally have more than one is that these guys are Avatars of their gods, and the more of them you have running round, the busier you are going to be if you're investing power in them.

Also keep in mind that just because somebody announces that they are a MS, DS or SA doesn't mean that the God actually is involved, could just be a cult that sees them selves as representatives.

Also, in RG, wasn't it suggested that Brys was actually the MS of Emurhlan? Sort of switching from the normal title of Knight,

[One Eye]

Hey first post in years, but just wanted to point out that the Grey Swords were sworn to Fener not the Wolves.

used to post under Quick Fett.

This post has been edited by One Eye: 29 April 2011 - 03:41 AM

[Aptorian]

They switched in MoI when the wolves appeared.

[One Eye]

I know I was just pointing out that the qoute about the last MS, SA was misleading because the Grey Swords had them for Fener.

This post has been edited by One Eye: 29 April 2011 - 03:48 AM

[mayhem]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 28 April 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

mayhem, on 28 April 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Here's a thought that just struck me from the Malazan Re-read.



A question for the group though, can anyone think of a God who used the MS/SA/D setup outside of the Gods of War?
Excepting the K'Chain Matron, who still used them in a martial sense, I can't think of any apart from Fener, Treach and the Wolves.

Feather Witch became the Errant's Destriant and wanted to coerce Udinaas and Brys in the roles of Shield Anvil and Mortal Sword,respectively.

Ahh, now that I forgot about. Can anyone remember, did the idea come from her, or did she pluck it from the Errant's mind?
Still, she definitely forced herself into the role of Destriant, it certainly wasn't gifted.

Clip as Mortal Sword I'm still rather sceptical of, it strikes me more as boasting, but was he to be MS of Darkness, or of Rake?
He also claims to be a trueborn child of darkness, but did we ever see confirmation from Silchas over that?
Clip is someone who irritates the heck out of me, well earned his comeuppance.

The idea of Gesler being a former MS of Fener is an interesting one, I wonder if he was particularly high in the priesthood prior to the purges.
Temple Lives suggests that the last known MS for Fener was some time in the past though, the Grey Swords were unknown to the Malazan historians up till Capustan.
I wonder if Karnadas took over as Destriant immediately after Ipshank changed his mind, or only after the disbarrment of Heboric.

[tiam]

Well doesnt Poliel have one in one of the Novellas?

In any case it seems to be a mostly old god thing with the war gods using it more often for the obvious reason that they have a more martial calling. The Errant has one but to be honest Hood has a knight and a soldier to fill those roles. I would argue, as the QB quote states there hasnt been a legitimate Destriant in a thousand years, that the titles are ancient like the holds and are being replaced by the houses.

[Messremb]

tiam, on 29 April 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

Well doesnt Poliel have one in one of the Novellas?

Tuglord Vise, Mortal Sword to the Sisters in Blood Follows and Crack'd Pot Trail.

This post has been edited by Messremb: 08 May 2011 - 08:28 PM

[Abyss]

bear in mind that 'Mortal Sword', and for that matter Knight, Soldier, Champion, Reaver, etc etc..., is a concept... a mortal, or even immortal, individual who is invested with the power of a god or ascendent or House or power.

Mortal sword, Destriant and Shield Anvil were the three traditional positions, themselves derived from earlier ideas. Over time the concept of Mortal Sword evolved into Knight etc, but some gods and ascendents still worked with the original title.
The actual investment of power and relationship between the God/whatever and the individual is pretty specific to those involved.

We never saw anything remotely similar to what Gruntle could do. Karsa was variously refered to as the Mortal Sword, Knight and Champion of the Crippled God, the House of Chains, and 'chains'. Clip seemed to swing between being Mortal Sword of Rake or Darkness, and self-appointed at that. Trull became Knight of Shadow but Shadowthrone had nothing to do with it (more or less).

Brys at various points was or was almost...
- Champion of the Empty Hold,
- the Mortal Sword of all Tiste,
- the Mortal Sword of the Errant (unwillingly and while dead),
- a Guardian of the Forgotten Gods (with related link to Mael),

AND whatever role he filled in the Tavore generated Deck of the House of Chains as of the end of TCG.

And strictly speaking, he could have filled al those roles at the same time and none of them by choice.

And just for good measure, remember that a position in a Deck reading does not automatically equal a position in a House or a link to a god or ascendent.