[flea]

In never want Jon Stewart on my ass.

Good post, Stormy.

When it comes to graphics, it seems to me that IP claims are very difficult to sustain. But then I'm not an attorney.

I have been using the Macintosh since 1987. I love the computer, even in 1997 when the company was supposedly on the way out. For graphics (I advise newspaper and yearbook) it is a great platform.

I still love the product, but I really hate the company. If I buy a computer today and they upgrade the system software tomorrow, I'm out of luck with a free upgrade. This is just one example of a company that has become so incredibly arrogant.

I am with Verizon, and I have the original Droid. Beside the camera, I think the smartphone is great. I'm eligible for a new phone in July, but I doubt I will get an iPhone, certainly not until version 5. I have never been able to see any advantage to an iPhone, especially since I use gmail.

[Tsundoku]

Update:

http://www.news.com....9-1226457869154

In a stunning turn, courts in each company's home country rule in favour of them.

In other news, researchers conclude immersing yourself in water leads you to get wet and fat people discover that by eating less and exercising more they lose weight.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 25 August 2012 - 07:46 AM

[worry]

 Sombra, on 25 August 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Update:

http://www.news.com....9-1226457869154

In a stunning turn, courts in each company's home country rule in favour of them.

In other news, researchers conclude immersing yourself in water leads you to get wet and fat people discover that by eating less and exercising more they lose weight.

That part is still under debate.

[Tsundoku]

 worrywort, on 25 August 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

 Sombra, on 25 August 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Update:

http://www.news.com....9-1226457869154

In a stunning turn, courts in each company's home country rule in favour of them.

In other news, researchers conclude immersing yourself in water leads you to get wet and fat people discover that by eating less and exercising more they lose weight.

That part is still under debate.

Yes, I've read that thread and frankly no matter how inclined your body is (or isn't) toward storing energy, you just can't beat physics.

[frookenhauer]

Agreed, eating less and exercising more will lead to fat loss. Why is there a whole thread debating this?

Back to the whole apple/samsung copyright war...

Well, the link in the op is over a year old, hardly current affairs...as of yesterday apple wins that case and is awarded $1 billion + change.

Good for apple! Samsung took many shortcuts by copying the iPhone to where they are today with the galaxy S3 and this is why they are being sued, and rightly so.

But apple is also being sued by Samsung, apple being their single biggest customer for components. If anything they are both the big bad bullies that everyone is afraid of.

When I joined the empire in '08 I was a staunch supporter of the PC, now Ive gone all the way Mac, and things haven't been better. And it all began with the iPhone.

Also, this week Apple became the biggest company in history in terms of market value. I really should have bought those shares way back when

With regards to apples marketing...its awesome, I really like it and it bloody well works. They know their game.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

 frookenhauer, on 25 August 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Agreed, eating less and exercising more will lead to fat loss. Why is there a whole thread debating this?

Back to the whole apple/samsung copyright war...

Well, the link in the op is over a year old, hardly current affairs...as of yesterday apple wins that case and is awarded $1 billion + change.

Good for apple! Samsung took many shortcuts by copying the iPhone to where they are today with the galaxy S3 and this is why they are being sued, and rightly so.

But apple is also being sued by Samsung, apple being their single biggest customer for components. If anything they are both the big bad bullies that everyone is afraid of.

When I joined the empire in '08 I was a staunch supporter of the PC, now Ive gone all the way Mac, and things haven't been better. And it all began with the iPhone.

Also, this week Apple became the biggest company in history in terms of market value. I really should have bought those shares way back when

With regards to apples marketing...its awesome, I really like it and it bloody well works. They know their game.

Except that Apple took lots of shortcuts by copying the same things from other phones. Including previous Samsung ones. Also, none of the things Samsung are getting sued over are substantial to their phone's success (they are getting sued over aesthetic design choices, not the actual things that make it work). I can't really imagine the issue impacted either party's sales. Any argument that it reduced Apple's sales via buying the Galaxy instead of Apple by mistake is nonsense. To top it off, the iPhone it looks similar to is not even the one it was in direct competition with.
It's so much nonsense. In many other industries you cannot actually sue people for that. The fashion industry being the biggest example. The entire point of that industry is aesthetic design, and you still can't stop others making something that looks similar, or even exactly the same. The only thing that people aren't allowed to copy in the fashion industry is trademarks. Which is why all that ugly designer ware is absolutely covered in logos.
And your comment about Samsung suing Apple too -so they're both badguys- seems a little off, as Samsung's was a retaliatory case, because of this lawsuit against them. Heck in the Australian case Apple was actually caught out for doctoring the pictures to make the phones look more similar.

It's far from over. There will be appeals and shit. And they won in the US. But they lost in Korea, and were ordered into mediation in Australia. So it isn't exactly a sweeping win.

And finally, Apple is NOT the biggest company in history. They are nowhere near it. They are currently the biggest company, yes, but anyone who isn't a dolt (or a dishonest wanker going for a cheap headline) realises the necessity of adjusting for inflation when comparing it to companies throught history. Which means that, after inflation Apple's $600+ billion is thoroughly smooshed by Microsoft's record holding $800+ billion sometime in the '90s.
They may eventually beat that, but they are quite a ways off for the moment.

[Fid]

Some interesting stuff starting to emerge now My link on what the jury actually did to come to their decision. Like not read the jury instructions and just go off piste with a foreman who had some patents of his own so no need to read this stuff...Samsung obviously guilty - just hang 'em

[Lucifer's Heaven]

 Fid, on 27 August 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Some interesting stuff starting to emerge now My link on what the jury actually did to come to their decision. Like not read the jury instructions and just go off piste with a foreman who had some patents of his own so no need to read this stuff...Samsung obviously guilty - just hang 'em

Wow... That's pretty ridiculous

I suppose that explain how they got the verdict though

[frookenhauer]

 Lucifer, on 27 August 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

...my stuff...

Except that Apple took lots of shortcuts by copying the same things from other phones. Including previous Samsung ones. Also, none of the things Samsung are getting sued over are substantial to their phone's success (they are getting sued over aesthetic design choices, not the actual things that make it work). I can't really imagine the issue impacted either party's sales. Any argument that it reduced Apple's sales via buying the Galaxy instead of Apple by mistake is nonsense. To top it off, the iPhone it looks similar to is not even the one it was in direct competition with.
It's so much nonsense. In many other industries you cannot actually sue people for that. The fashion industry being the biggest example. The entire point of that industry is aesthetic design, and you still can't stop others making something that looks similar, or even exactly the same. The only thing that people aren't allowed to copy in the fashion industry is trademarks. Which is why all that ugly designer ware is absolutely covered in logos.
And your comment about Samsung suing Apple too -so they're both badguys- seems a little off, as Samsung's was a retaliatory case, because of this lawsuit against them. Heck in the Australian case Apple was actually caught out for doctoring the pictures to make the phones look more similar.

It's far from over. There will be appeals and shit. And they won in the US. But they lost in Korea, and were ordered into mediation in Australia. So it isn't exactly a sweeping win.

And finally, Apple is NOT the biggest company in history. They are nowhere near it. They are currently the biggest company, yes, but anyone who isn't a dolt (or a dishonest wanker going for a cheap headline) realises the necessity of adjusting for inflation when comparing it to companies throught history. Which means that, after inflation Apple's $600+ billion is thoroughly smooshed by Microsoft's record holding $800+ billion sometime in the '90s.
They may eventually beat that, but they are quite a ways off for the moment.

You need more imagination: The galaxy had a look and feel of the iPhone and shop assistants can be quoted as saying it looks and works just like an iPhone. Now that will work with people who want an iphone, but want to spend less. So yes, they lost sales due to this.

Im sure that if Kia built a car with the exact design and style of the M3 and put their badge on it BMW would roll over and say, "its okay, its only a Kia, look you can see the badge" Design is EVERYTHING, this is especially true these days as there is very little way to differentiate between products in terms of specification, they buy components from pretty much the same manufacturers! Even in fashion, there are patents, for example Levis pocket stitching. Look hard enough and you will find them. But we are talking about the technology industry, so stay on point

I read an article about this whole inflation adjusted value thingy and if I remember correctly it was some railroad company in the states that takes it by a long shot. But to be fair if we go back in history and inflation adjust, Im sure that the guy that sold the first bow and arrow for an antler bone is probably the single biggest company in history in terms of market value. I'm sure Reuters would really appreciate you calling them dishonest wankers looking for a cheap headline, thats a damn fine financial reporting company that really, really knows what they're talking about. You should have let it at they are currently the biggest, I would have agreed with you . Also, seeing as we are in a 'double dip mega recession' Im sure that their value will rise considerably when someone else adjusts for inflation in 20 years or so.

Also the verdict in Korea will not be as severe because the market there is not quite as large as the US market.

This is turing into a discussion...

[rhulad]

Something that I find extremely amusing about this whole thing is that Apple buys a large number of components (including dram and other chips) that they use in the iPhone and iPad from Samsung.

Here's an article about it: link

[worry]

Interesting. What's $1 billion between friends?

[Tiste Simeon]

Seems to me like Apple are afraid of competition and the Galaxy S series blew what the iPhone had out of the water. No doubt the iPhone 5 will be better than the GS3, but so flipping what, that's competition and it breed initiative and creativity. Petty bickering and trying to oust the competition through pathetic claims that "they made something that looks a bit like something we made" is ridiculous and I find it amazing that a jury actually granted a $1bn settlement for it! Apple are bloodsuckers and I hope there is a backlash because of it. They are trying to quash any kind of creativity in the market. Losers.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

 frookenhauer, on 27 August 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

You need more imagination: The galaxy had a look and feel of the iPhone and shop assistants can be quoted as saying it looks and works just like an iPhone. Now that will work with people who want an iphone, but want to spend less. So yes, they lost sales due to this.

That that impacted their sales is complete conjecture, and yes, imagination. Especially as the iPhone it looked like, was actually cheaper than the Galaxy... You could essentially argue the reverse because of that. "It has the same look and feel of the Galaxy you were after, but it's cheaper".

 frookenhauer, on 27 August 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Im sure that if Kia built a car with the exact design and style of the M3 and put their badge on it BMW would roll over and say, "its okay, its only a Kia, look you can see the badge" Design is EVERYTHING, this is especially true these days as there is very little way to differentiate between products in terms of specification, they buy components from pretty much the same manufacturers! Even in fashion, there are patents, for example Levis pocket stitching. Look hard enough and you will find them. But we are talking about the technology industry, so stay on point.

I am aware it's a different industry, which is why I said "In many other industries". The point being that I don't think this should be allowed.
And yes there are a couple of patents, but they fall more under the construction side of things than design. Materials and stitching patterns you make are not rare cases, but how you arrange those things into a whole piece can't be. And even with things like the stitching, I'm pretty sure all you'd need to do is all you need to do with logos. Make a small adjustment. So while it may look like it at first glance, take a closer look and they're different.
As long as people don't try to sell you the knock off as though it IS the thing it's copying I see no real issue.

 frookenhauer, on 27 August 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

I read an article about this whole inflation adjusted value thingy and if I remember correctly it was some railroad company in the states that takes it by a long shot. But to be fair if we go back in history and inflation adjust, Im sure that the guy that sold the first bow and arrow for an antler bone is probably the single biggest company in history in terms of market value. I'm sure Reuters would really appreciate you calling them dishonest wankers looking for a cheap headline, thats a damn fine financial reporting company that really, really knows what they're talking about. You should have let it at they are currently the biggest, I would have agreed with you . Also, seeing as we are in a 'double dip mega recession' Im sure that their value will rise considerably when someone else adjusts for inflation in 20 years or so.

Also the verdict in Korea will not be as severe because the market there is not quite as large as the US market.

This is turing into a discussion...

O.o
That... No.
You don't inflation adjust for bartering, especially during a time when money doesn't exist.
And yes, headline grabbing is exactly what it is. They could simply have announced the solid honest truth, that it is currently the biggest company (a point I did say) then that would be "damn fine financial reporting", instead they embellish it with half truths to make it more impressive.

 Tiste Simeon, on 27 August 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Seems to me like Apple are afraid of competition and the Galaxy S series blew what the iPhone had out of the water. No doubt the iPhone 5 will be better than the GS3, but so flipping what, that's competition and it breed initiative and creativity. Petty bickering and trying to oust the competition through pathetic claims that "they made something that looks a bit like something we made" is ridiculous and I find it amazing that a jury actually granted a $1bn settlement for it! Apple are bloodsuckers and I hope there is a backlash because of it. They are trying to quash any kind of creativity in the market. Losers.

Yeah. Heck, they disallow apps in the app store that "duplicate existing functionality". So essentially it doesn't allow anyone to compete with Apple's apps. And they have a history of targeting apps that do it in some ways better than them.
And Fid's link goes a long way to explain how they reached that verdict...

[Macros]

Apple are always trying to push the idea that they created everything, they're a hung of douche bags that slap silly names on existing techology and then market it as revolutionary.
That siri bullshit, voice control is not new, facetime or whatever they call their video calls, is not new.

Entirely too many people think apple invented the smart phone, apple included.

[lastname]

Uh oh I'm in trouble now. I think I need to find a good lawyer or a country the Apple legal team can't enter. I look around and see a 20 year old calculator, a monitor, a TV screen and a frickin dining table all of which look like they've been ripped off from the incredibly original iwhatever design. I mean who else could've possibly conceived that amazingly original shape, that ... that *gasp* rectangular profile and ... *sob* the rounded corners? Obvious choice for the greatest invention thread. Of course that makes it A-OK for Apple litigate their competition out of the market. The competition should be ashamed for even attempting to ... well ... compete. *shrug*

[not posted from my iwhatever because I don't and will never have one]

[QuickTidal]

 Macros, on 28 August 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Apple are always trying to push the idea that they created everything, they're a hung of douche bags that slap silly names on existing techology and then market it as revolutionary.
That siri bullshit, voice control is not new, facetime or whatever they call their video calls, is not new.

Entirely too many people think apple invented the smart phone, apple included.

The game is (and always has been) who gets it out first. The technology is so similar, that design, innovation and apps are a business of 1st's. Whoever gets it out there has the bragging rights. Apple is GREAT at bragging rights.

What I fail to understand in regards to the upset of Apple haters... is that Apple has never portrayed itself as anything other than a style-oriented, DESIGNER hardware and software company. they aren't secretive about being pissed off when others are crafting and releasing similar technology...this is something that goes ALL the way back to the mid-80's when Steve Jobs called Bill Gates into his office in the middle of the night to carve him a new asshole for stealing the GUI idea for Windows directly from Apple's OS....something they bought/took from Xerox who didn't have a real use for it. It's a muscle game, and they've never hidden that fact. Never. It's why you all know about it...so I REALLY fail to see the vitriol aimed at them as anything other than petulant whining...when it's such common knowledge.

My favourite bit is this: MANY people LOVE Apple, and the company will ALWAYS be successful. Will another company take the lead from them? Probably at some point, but that won't stop Apple doing the things they do and marketing them as they do. The market is there. Countless billions of people have i-products around the world...this isn't going to stop for any reason. No matter how many haters there are out there. It's a juggernaut and nothing is set to stop it. Whole websites exist so countless fans can keep track of the next best thing or release.

So buy your Microsoft products, or Samsung Galaxies or whatever. But the complaining about Apple serves you all not at all, aside from perhaps defusing your righteous anger and indignation that a corporation ought to act like a corporation and be out for blood and money.

For me, My iphone does all the things I want it to do and more, my iPod has kept me in music on the go for around ten years now, and I've worked with Mac's at my jobs for around 15 years. I like what they produce, and I don't have issues with it. I'm not Mac cult, but I recognize that they put out a quality product for the most part. They make it easy for me to buy and download music, movies and TV show seasons, and their customer service is top notch so far for me.

I also think it's interesting to note that the biggest quotient of Mac deriders are Gamers. Yes, Mac's are not for games, they never have been touted as such. I fail to see how this is a such a big problem. You want to game...buy a PC. Nuff said.

I realize the thread is about Cell phone design, but the discussion is fitting, and can be applied.

Samsung has done what Microsoft did and gotten too close to the design of the iphone...pissing Apple off...being pissed off at a competitor and taking them to task on their phone is nothing new in business, and certainly nothing new for Apple.

And what humors me most...had Samsung been truly innovative, they'd have come up with the NEXT big concept, instead of putting out a phone that was so similar to the iphone. Get your R & D to come up with a phone that is wholly different from what is on the market....THAT is what Apple always has done...and that is what Samsung SHOULD have done.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 August 2012 - 02:30 PM

[rhulad]

 QuickTidal, on 29 August 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

The game is (and always has been) who gets it out first. The technology is so similar, that design, innovation and apps are a business of 1st's. Whoever gets it out there has the bragging rights. Apple is GREAT at bragging rights.


...

I realize the thread is about Cell phone design, but the discussion is fitting, and can be applied.

Samsung has done what Microsoft did and gotten too close to the design of the iphone...pissing Apple off...being pissed off at a competitor and taking them to task on their phone is nothing new in business, and certainly nothing new for Apple.

And what humors me most...had Samsung been truly innovative, they'd have come up with the NEXT big concept, instead of putting out a phone that was so similar to the iphone. Get your R & D to come up with a phone that is wholly different from what is on the market....THAT is what Apple always has done...and that is what Samsung SHOULD have done.

Apple hasn't come up with anything original since the Apple II.

[QuickTidal]

 rhulad, on 29 August 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Apple hasn't come up with anything original since the Apple II.

Bull. Prove it.

[Sir Thursday]

 QuickTidal, on 29 August 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

 Macros, on 28 August 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Apple are always trying to push the idea that they created everything, they're a hung of douche bags that slap silly names on existing techology and then market it as revolutionary.
That siri bullshit, voice control is not new, facetime or whatever they call their video calls, is not new.

Entirely too many people think apple invented the smart phone, apple included.

The game is (and always has been) who gets it out first. The technology is so similar, that design, innovation and apps are a business of 1st's. Whoever gets it out there has the bragging rights. Apple is GREAT at bragging rights.

What I fail to understand in regards to the upset of Apple haters... is that Apple has never portrayed itself as anything other than a style-oriented, DESIGNER hardware and software company. they aren't secretive about being pissed off when others are crafting and releasing similar technology...this is something that goes ALL the way back to the mid-80's when Steve Jobs called Bill Gates into his office in the middle of the night to carve him a new asshole for stealing the GUI idea for Windows directly from Apple's OS....something they bought/took from Xerox who didn't have a real use for it. It's a muscle game, and they've never hidden that fact. Never. It's why you all know about it...so I REALLY fail to see the vitriol aimed at them as anything other than petulant whining...when it's such common knowledge.

My favourite bit is this: MANY people LOVE Apple, and the company will ALWAYS be successful. Will another company take the lead from them? Probably at some point, but that won't stop Apple doing the things they do and marketing them as they do. The market is there. Countless billions of people have i-products around the world...this isn't going to stop for any reason. No matter how many haters there are out there. It's a juggernaut and nothing is set to stop it. Whole websites exist so countless fans can keep track of the next best thing or release.

So buy your Microsoft products, or Samsung Galaxies or whatever. But the complaining about Apple serves you all not at all, aside from perhaps defusing your righteous anger and indignation that a corporation ought to act like a corporation and be out for blood and money.

For me, My iphone does all the things I want it to do and more, my iPod has kept me in music on the go for around ten years now, and I've worked with Mac's at my jobs for around 15 years. I like what they produce, and I don't have issues with it. I'm not Mac cult, but I recognize that they put out a quality product for the most part. They make it easy for me to buy and download music, movies and TV show seasons, and their customer service is top notch so far for me.

I also think it's interesting to note that the biggest quotient of Mac deriders are Gamers. Yes, Mac's are not for games, they never have been touted as such. I fail to see how this is a such a big problem. You want to game...buy a PC. Nuff said.

I realize the thread is about Cell phone design, but the discussion is fitting, and can be applied.

Samsung has done what Microsoft did and gotten too close to the design of the iphone...pissing Apple off...being pissed off at a competitor and taking them to task on their phone is nothing new in business, and certainly nothing new for Apple.

And what humors me most...had Samsung been truly innovative, they'd have come up with the NEXT big concept, instead of putting out a phone that was so similar to the iphone. Get your R & D to come up with a phone that is wholly different from what is on the market....THAT is what Apple always has done...and that is what Samsung SHOULD have done.

I don't understand the thrust of your argument here. You seem to be saying that because this is what Apple has always done, that we should just accept this verdict as OK. I fail to see why past behaviour should excuse current bad behaviour. It may be inevitable that Apple would try something like this, but that doesn't make it right.

While I can understand why they might be annoyed at Samsung for apeing their design, the manner in which they are trying to use the patent system is not something that should just be tolerated and accepted. The ridiculous patent system in the US is already a humungous pain in the arse for anyone working in software because of how generalized you can make your patent claims, but the ability to enforce patents on the sort of things Apple has it will make it even worse.

ST

[QuickTidal]

 Sir Thursday, on 29 August 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

I don't understand the thrust of your argument here. You seem to be saying that because this is what Apple has always done, that we should just accept this verdict as OK. I fail to see why past behaviour should excuse current bad behaviour. It may be inevitable that Apple would try something like this, but that doesn't make it right.

While I can understand why they might be annoyed at Samsung for apeing their design, the manner in which they are trying to use the patent system is not something that should just be tolerated and accepted. The ridiculous patent system in the US is already a humungous pain in the arse for anyone working in software because of how generalized you can make your patent claims, but the ability to enforce patents on the sort of things Apple has it will make it even worse.

ST

I'm saying that it's not going to stop. I'm saying that no matter how much people complain about it, the US is known for everyone being able to sue each other over everything. A burglar can sue a homeowner for attacking them in defense of their home...I'm saying that Apple is doing nothing more than behave the status quo within the confines of the consumer society that created it and embraces it. Is that right? Gods no. But unless the entirety of global society ceases to use and buy Apple products, it's not going to change. And as long as they exist in the USA where suing folk is a daily activity...

I'm not saying that we personally can't feel that it's not in our own minds the most ethical way to do business...that would be nonsense. It's obviously a terrible way to do business....Just because I accept this is how things are being done in the corporate world doesn't mean I think it's right either.

What I AM saying is that this is a company that is doing things that are being considered sketchy by certain people...and those people jump directly down their throats and begin saying stuff like (no offense) "should not just be tolerated and accepted"...and yet some of the biggest, worst corporations on the planet do FAR, FAR worse in their practices. Take Viacom for example. If you really looked into it, I think you will find that Viacom owns half the bleeding planet when it comes to media. Since their inception they have gobbled up scads of smaller corporations. You probably use 30-50% of their products, activities, and other things every day. Watch any American network TV? Then you are feeding Viacom. How about seeing films made by Paramount? That's the easiest example, but it makes my point. This is a company that is known for horrendous business practices, for not only challenging and suing competition but for utterly destroying competition right down to their last penny. But you rarely, rarely hear about it...partially because the arms of the company are so vast that the fingers don't even know where the arm leads to and what head its attached to. But mostly because they are shady enough to make sure you NEVER find out about the full transgressions in their business model.

And that's only one example, there are a few other Mass global corporations doing terrible things in everyday business.

I'm saying that Apple is low on the list of transgressors, and yet everyone delights in tearing them to pieces, and then go about their daily lives doing things and using many products by MUCH much worse corps...

Lastly, if you truly wish to worry about what should and shouldn't be tolerated in the world, I think we ALL need to start at home (have a look at this site and do the quiz): http://slaveryfootprint.org/

There are 30 slaves working for me according to that site...and I think it's time I really looked at the things I buy and use and make some changes.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 August 2012 - 06:08 PM