[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 18 May 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

Battalion, on 18 May 2011 - 07:20 AM, said:

Even given the fact that there were only 'slight' undertones of this in the book, I see no need for a homosexual scene of this kind.

See, now why on earth is it cool for there to be umpteen "whore and *insert lord here*"

I do hope said whore knows where to insert said lord. She'd be pretty bad at her job if she'd go for her navel or ear...

[Ceda Cicero]

Tapper, on 18 May 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:

Battalion, on 18 May 2011 - 07:20 AM, said:

The Renly scene SUCKED! Pun intended. Even given the fact that there were only 'slight' undertones of this in the book, I see no need for a homosexual scene of this kind. I would be ample for Littlefinger's comment regarding the pair to be enough for veiwers to make up there mind, or if this is not enough, have him openly say to someone -- anyone --, 'those two are gay.' I'd feel more comfortable with that.

Not to lash out, but this kind of reaction always puzzles me as soon as two males touch in an intimate way on tv. While I can understand people feeling uncomfortable when confronted with boy-on-boy stuff (whether on religious grounds or aesthetic reasons - personally my opinion is that it was really tastefully done), I still doubt many of those who feel uncomfortable (not you per sé, but many) would object if it was girl-on-girl instead.

Heck, seventy percent of the male viewers would probably rewind and watch it again if it was two chicks fondling each other - I think the comments overall on the web for the comparitive scene where Dany receives her how-to-please-Khal-Drogo ride were for 75% jubilant.

Besides all that, there was also story-telling wise a good reason for a Loras-Renly vis-a-vis. There was also some pretty important conversation going on that a Littlefinger/ Renly exchange could not explain, especially if they are going to make something of Renly marching on King's Landing with the Tyrells without wanting to invest too much time in the reasons for the Tyrells backing Renly instead of Stannis.
The plan for Renly's march was explained here in full, and the motivation for it as well, all in a neat little scene.
Not to mention the whole dynamic between Loras and Sansa being set up as impossible from the get-go by what we saw here.

I find myself agreeing with Tapper here, and - after a second viewing last night - pretty drastically re-evaluating my whole opinion of the scene. At first I thought it was just HBO taking a very thin subtext from the books and inflating it just for an excuse to throw this scene in. But after watching again and reconsidering, I really think it adds a whole new layer of complexity to Renly and Loras's characters that was only vaguely hinted at in the books, probably more because, as has been mentioned, we never got Renly or Loras POVs in the books. Loras in particular was always a bit of a flat character for me, just a token chivalrous, pretty boy knight who's badass with a sword. But this scene gave me a different perspective on him.

And honestly that's becoming, as QuickTidal mentioned earlier, one of my favorite things about watching this show as a fan of the books. I find myself watching more now for the added scenes than for portrayals of awesome scenes that I'm familiar with. And it's because the added scenes allow us to expand our perspective, which is limited to POV characters in the books, and see things that could have very conceivably happened (as Martin points out in his recent blog entry about the Varys/Littlefinger interaction that was added in this last episode) but weren't shown in the books because of POV limits. It's almost like, in the instances of more faithful additions, getting to watch "deleted scenes" or "extras."

[pat5150]

What do you think of HBO's GoT? New poll on the Hotlists here.

Patrick

[acesn8s]

If that scene bothers you, just tell yourself that Loras was just finshing up his shave.

For audience members who never read the books the show needs to drive some points home instead of being subtle about it. I think this is one of those areas. It really does lay the groundwork for Renley’s decisions in the upcoming episodes. I just wish they didn’t change Renley’s nature so much. I guess toning hm down builds up the other characters who are going to get more mileage in the show.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

To all those bothered by the Renly/Loras scene: Really in the book it was all but stated clear. Renly wants Loras to go and "pray" with him the night before the battle. Stannis makes some rather telling comments during the parlay. Loras go in a killing frenzy when Renly dies. Loras is more upset than Margaery at Renly's death. Jaime tells him he'll stick his sword "where not even Renly did".

Anyway, about this episode.

Robert ruled every scene he was in. From the one where he wants to joust,to where he and ned fighted, to the conversation with Cersei.

Varys and Littlefinger were also great. Varys's best part is at the end of his convo with LF when he asks if he heard of the news from the east. LF's the snide comment to Renly.

The last scene with the great fight between Jory,Ned and the Lannisters was also awesome. It was clear how Jaime outclassed Jory(aobviously) and Ned.

And I loved the face the Hound has when Loras raises his hand. It's obvious he doesn't like being the hero.

[acesn8s]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 18 May 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

. . .And I loved the face the Hound has when Loras raises his hand. It's obvious he doesn't like being the hero.

I saw him more as conflicted with the cheers. You could tell he was uncomfortable being the center of attention.

[SpectreofEschaton]

If it isn't beating a dead horse at this point, I'll chime in on the Loras/Renly scene.

First of all, I can't stand the actor for Loras, he looks nothing like I pictured him and I actually laughed at his claim to train at combat every day, when he has no musculature to speak of. The fact that he was able unhorse the Mountain I find highly suspect.

Anyway, I'd like to just chime in that I'm in the minority who does find the hetero scenes distasteful. Being asexual, they don't bother me or offend me, they just feel like a waste of time and I have no use for them. I feel like they're eschewing the otherwise-excellent storytelling of the show to provide titillation and garner ratings, and I just end up rolling my eyes. ("Oh, my, look, yet another example of how our characters are nothing but poorly-evolved primates, what a unique, salient point... *sigh* Could we get back to the story please?") The scenes just do nothing for me, and I feel like they could be cut, for the most part, with no ill effect. Consequently, I tend to fast-forward through them on re-watches.

That said, the Loras and Renly scene barely even qualifies as a sex scene, I think. Minus those ridiculous sound effects at the end (which were just as ridiculous in episode 1 with Roz) it seemed to fit into the narrative HBO's telling, even if I have grumbles about what they're doing with Renly's character. On the other hand, it's kind of nice to see two people in this setting actually trust each other and let their guard down around each other. It struck me the other day how surpassingly rare real friendship is in Westeros, as opposed to, say, Malazan.

Also, am I crazy to have pictured Loras as blond in the books?

[End of Disc One]

SpectreofEschaton, on 18 May 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

Also, am I crazy to have pictured Loras as blond in the books?

Yeah, since he's described as having brown hair.

[D'rek]

I liked the Loras/Renly scene a lot!!!

For those saying it is all 'subtle' in the books, well that's because we never have a scene from the PoV of Loras or Renly in the first book (or of Bran peeking through a window at them). Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 18 May 2011 - 07:28 PM

[worry]

The only thing I didn't like about the Renly scene was that it happened before the death of Robert. I don't like the idea of Renly scheming against him, as opposed to Stannis/Joffrey/etc.

And as a board, can we agree that asexual goths shouldn't be allowed to comment on whether sloppy BJ sounds are "ridiculous" or not, or whether sex scenes in general are somehow boring demeaning reflections of our primate nature while scheming, murder, and medieval crime-solving are valid higher-echelon human interests.

Nah, just kidding Spectre, we love you buddy, so keep doing what you do. But sex scenes are of the people, by the people, and for the people and not just window dressing or titillation. Anyone describing any measure of the human condition would be remiss in leaving sex out. So those who are averse just gotta bear with it. (winky is asexual in nature, I assure you).

This post has been edited by worrywort: 18 May 2011 - 07:57 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

Just wondering, unless you're the one receiving the sloppy BJ (and even then I'm not sure it wouldn't be the case), can a sloppy BJ sound be anything other than ridiculous?

[QuickTidal]

worrywort, on 18 May 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

And as a board, can we agree that asexual goths shouldn't be allowed to comment on whether sloppy BJ sounds are "ridiculous" or not, or whether sex scenes in general are somehow boring demeaning reflections of our primate nature while scheming, murder, and medieval crime-solving are valid higher-echelon human interests.

This is perfectly worded. I was going to make a long post about how odd and ridiculous Spectre's comments were...but WW has me covered in everything I wanted to say.

[QuickTidal]

Ceda Cicero, on 18 May 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

Just wondering, unless you're the one receiving the sloppy BJ (and even then I'm not sure it wouldn't be the case), can a sloppy BJ sound be anything other than ridiculous?

Nope, and to be honest...the BJ sounds in BOTH those scenes are really accurate...so I dunno how the reality of those noises can be construed as ridiculous only on telly.

[amphibian]

Well... there's not Illy going "NO TEETH! NO TEE-AAAAAAGGGGGHH!"

[SpectreofEschaton]

Forgive me, I didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with them being included on any particular level, just that they don't do anything for me. I very much understand the reasoning and accept that they're going to show up, I just reserve the right not to find them personally rewarding to watch.

I wasn't trying to start an argument, or make any kind of comment about sex vs. violence or whatever, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there, as I've seen the "I don't hear anyone complaining about the brothel scenes" rebuttal on three different forums this morning alone, and thought I'd redress the imbalance. That's all.

I apologize if it sounded like I was accusing anyone (or... everyone, rather), I didn't mean it that way but I see how it could be read as such. I'll refrain from further comment, though, I'm aware of the minority (singularity) I'm in on this one.

[worry]

Don't apologize. Debate! I was mostly kidding, but the one thing I genuinely took exception to was the poorly-evolved primate crack, and it wasn't a sex-vs-violence thing so much as sex being debasing thing. If you only meant it personally though and not as broad judgment, no worries, but I just got the impression you were describing sex as perhaps a demeaning, animal-nature act to be dismissed in the face of more worthwhile human endeavors. As a flaw, perhaps, born from our lizard brains. Asexuality is as valid as any other orientation of course, but it's not a one-up on or escape from something wrong and icky other people do when they're at their worst.

[SpectreofEschaton]

worrywort, on 18 May 2011 - 09:10 PM, said:

Don't apologize. Debate! I was mostly kidding, but the one thing I genuinely took exception to was the poorly-evolved primate crack, and it wasn't a sex-vs-violence thing so much as sex being debasing thing. If you only meant it personally though and not as broad judgment, no worries, but I just got the impression you were describing sex as perhaps a demeaning, animal-nature act to be dismissed in the face of more worthwhile human endeavors. As a flaw, perhaps, born from our lizard brains. Asexuality is as valid as any other orientation of course, but it's not a one-up on or escape from something wrong and icky other people do when they're at their worst.

Yeah, it didn't even occur to me when I typed that that it might be read that way. I do apologize.

[worry]

Stop apologizing like a TV-Renly, and start sticking up for yourself, like a book-Renly. What kind of Renly are you??

[SpectreofEschaton]

worrywort, on 18 May 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

Stop apologizing like a TV-Renly, and start sticking up for yourself, like a book-Renly. What kind of Renly are you??

The kind of Renly who doesn't want to derail a topic with a tangential debate and possibly offend more people than he already has? I happen to rather like this site and would just as soon not make waves, if I can help it.

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 18 May 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

Ceda Cicero, on 18 May 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

Just wondering, unless you're the one receiving the sloppy BJ (and even then I'm not sure it wouldn't be the case), can a sloppy BJ sound be anything other than ridiculous?

Nope, and to be honest...the BJ sounds in BOTH those scenes are really accurate...so I dunno how the reality of those noises can be construed as ridiculous only on telly.

You're not fooling anyone, QT. We all know you have noooo idea what an "accurate BJ sound" is.

OH NO I DIN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 18 May 2011 - 09:58 PM