Malazan Empire: Ok, lets get real about the K'Chain Che'Malle for a second - Malazan Empire

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Ok, lets get real about the K'Chain Che'Malle for a second Rate Topic: -----

#81 User is offline   Orlion 

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:05 AM

Deus ex machina, as a term, gets thrown around a lot on the internet. It's been pretty much twisted so that it could be anything. A force gets annihilated by a stronger, chaotic, magical force that has been used throughout the novel without there ever being shown a means to defeat it? Deus ex machina! Reality altering powers have been gathering throughout the series and when they clash in the final convergence they use *gasp!* REALITY ALTERING POWERS?! Where the bloody hell did that come from? Deus ex machina! Why are there so many gods in machines! Not like in Deadhouse Gates, oh no.. nothing came out of nowhere to resolve an unresolvable problem in that book.

Just a second, gotta get this tongue out of my cheek, there we go. Setting up imaginary cage matches between real historical warriors and fictional ones seems... well... futile (though fun). It misses the point. The Book of the Fallen tries to through many aspects of history and pre-history (with a healthy dosage of pot shards!) in an attempt to see what it means to be human. What does it mean to be a soldier facing advancements in grinding you to talcum powder? What does that mean to a civilization that employs such techniques without refrain? Have you ever wondered how a single pilot that vaporized thousands of innocent people and poisoned thousands more can live with themselves? You see an answer in the Edur conduits for Chaos... sometimes people learn to crave it, as serial killers learn to love and need killing.

Also, have you ever noticed that with long series everyone always likes the 'first ones' that they were the best and later ones 'went astray'? Now, have you ever read the reasons of how they were lead astray (in the case of later Martin books: too much talking, description, food description) only to find the offending qualities in the very books of the series they claim to be the best? (GoT has a lot of those things... covered in honey). Why is that? I imagine that is when the magic moment happens most for people, around the beginning... as a result this becomes quickly 'one of the best'... yet somehow, even if the author doesn't change anything... nothing ever comes close to it again. That's because your initial magic moment is not produced by the author, but by that great 'first time'. And nothing can re-invent that. That's why people like GoT better than FoC, Deadhouse Gates and/or Memories of Ice more than any other book in the Malazan world, the First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever more than the succeeding ones, Eye of the World more than volumes 4-78 of the Wheel of Time... well, you get the picture.

For this series, it was MoI for me. But, I've learned not to compare everything else to it, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to enjoy anything else. I'm not chained down by good experiences, I'm free to let the author take me along his vision without me trying to steer it into something it is not.
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#82 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM

Deus Ex Machina being a clichéd term doesn't really forgive the use of the mechanic itself in a book. It's not a literal term anymore. Anytime you have a problem resolved out of nowhere by previously unknown/unexpected powers/abilities/knowledge/whatever that's Deus Ex Machina. There are times when it actually works and can improve a book, but if not done skillfully it can just look plain sloppy. Steven Erikson seems to revel in Deus Ex Machina, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In my opinion, however, it eventually starts to get kind of lame.


As for why people seem to usually like the early books better, I think it's because they're usually more interesting. Like you said, in the first few volumes you're learning about the world and you have a sense of discovery, novelty and wonder. After 2-3 books, the world is generally understood, and you need to have a plan for the next few books that keeps the series interesting. I personally think a 10 book series is pure overkill, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be bad. You are going to lose people, however, if you don't give them a compelling reason to keep going. Personally, I would have probably preferred MBotF be condensed into 6-7 books maybe. The meandering philosophy, while sometimes good, is also often very bad, and it added 100's of pages to the later volumes in the series.
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#83 User is offline   Silk 

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:41 AM

Given the amount of foreshadowing that occurs across the series I'm not in the Deus Ex camp. As this is also a world of magic anything should be possible as in essence that is the definition of something magical in that it defies rational explanation of the peoples of that world.

To me magic is something that science has not yet found a logical reason for occuring and as such something as simple as lighter in the real world could be magical to someone a thousand years ago.
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#84 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 01:34 PM

View PostAbberon, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Deus Ex Machina being a clichéd term doesn't really forgive the use of the mechanic itself in a book. It's not a literal term anymore. Anytime you have a problem resolved out of nowhere by previously unknown/unexpected powers/abilities/knowledge/whatever that's Deus Ex Machina. There are times when it actually works and can improve a book, but if not done skillfully it can just look plain sloppy. Steven Erikson seems to revel in Deus Ex Machina, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In my opinion, however, it eventually starts to get kind of lame.


As for why people seem to usually like the early books better, I think it's because they're usually more interesting. Like you said, in the first few volumes you're learning about the world and you have a sense of discovery, novelty and wonder. After 2-3 books, the world is generally understood, and you need to have a plan for the next few books that keeps the series interesting. I personally think a 10 book series is pure overkill, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be bad. You are going to lose people, however, if you don't give them a compelling reason to keep going. Personally, I would have probably preferred MBotF be condensed into 6-7 books maybe. The meandering philosophy, while sometimes good, is also often very bad, and it added 100's of pages to the later volumes in the series.





Re: the novels become less interesting as the series progresses and after 2-3 books the world is generally understood...

You really think that's the case? Okay, but I find it hard to believe. This is one of very few epic fantasy series where that doesn't seem to be the case, and anyone who claims to "understand" the world after three books is, I would say, full of shit. Especially since you get a whole new corner of that world in Midnight Tides, where hardly any of the rules are the same.

Re: the meandering philosophy...

I'm more sympathetic to this point, but not by much. Look, I'm not so brash and fanboyish as to say "But, meandering philosophy is an integral, fundamental part of Erikson's style and if you don't like it... well, maybe it IS best that you move on," but I'm damned close. I personally struggled with the "meandering philosophy" on my first read of the series, and in hindsight that's of course because I just wanted plot, plot, plot, and just needed to see Rake kill someone with Dragnipur. On a reread, the "meandering philosophy" bits were maybe my favorite bits of the series. It was the difference, to use an analogy, between seeing, say, a Magritte painting for the first time and desperately wanting nothing more than to know what it means, being indifferent toward and even irritated with subtle details (weird titles of works, random details that distract or don't seem to fit) because they don't contribute to any kind of comprehension. When in truth, understanding and comprehension are secondary to what you might notice as you study the painting again--brush strokes and textures and shit like that (I'm not an artist, someone else chime the fuck in.)

The "meandering philosophy" bits are Erikson's brushstrokes, his textures. Not everyone's going to appreciate that shit, and for me to look down on you for that would be more than a little pretentious. But I will say that I think you're missing out.

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

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#85 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 03:46 PM

View PostCeda Cicero, on 13 October 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

You really think that's the case? Okay, but I find it hard to believe. This is one of very few epic fantasy series where that doesn't seem to be the case, and anyone who claims to "understand" the world after three books is, I would say, full of shit. Especially since you get a whole new corner of that world in Midnight Tides, where hardly any of the rules are the same.


You're right in a sense because the world is so big and the novels cover so many different things, but regardless, after book 2 or 3 things just aren't as 'fresh' as when you first get started.

View PostCeda Cicero, on 13 October 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

The "meandering philosophy" bits are Erikson's brushstrokes, his textures. Not everyone's going to appreciate that shit, and for me to look down on you for that would be more than a little pretentious. But I will say that I think you're missing out.


I have to say you're about 10x more reasonable than most of the people on this forum. I don't feel, however, that Erikson's talents aren't in the subtle brushstrokes. He has a brilliantly creative mind and his world building and plot lines (when relevant) are weaved together expertly. His action and dialogue can also be top notch. His philisophical meanderings, however, I find to be poorly edited and just inane a lot of the time. There are plenty of exceptions to this and sometimes there are some pretty insightful passages in his books, but more often than not they just seem to be self-indulgent blabbering. That's why I wonder about his editors sometimes.... Despite my love for MBotF, I don't think I've ever read anything by anyone, who can write as much as SE can without actually saying anything worthwhile.

There's plenty of room for artistic meandering in books. There are tons of authors who do it right and I've loved their books. SE isn't one of them. I like his books for other reasons.
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#86 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 03:49 PM

View PostAbberon, on 13 October 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

View PostCeda Cicero, on 13 October 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

You really think that's the case? Okay, but I find it hard to believe. This is one of very few epic fantasy series where that doesn't seem to be the case, and anyone who claims to "understand" the world after three books is, I would say, full of shit. Especially since you get a whole new corner of that world in Midnight Tides, where hardly any of the rules are the same.


You're right in a sense because the world is so big and the novels cover so many different things, but regardless, after book 2 or 3 things just aren't as 'fresh' as when you first get started.

View PostCeda Cicero, on 13 October 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

The "meandering philosophy" bits are Erikson's brushstrokes, his textures. Not everyone's going to appreciate that shit, and for me to look down on you for that would be more than a little pretentious. But I will say that I think you're missing out.


I have to say you're about 10x more reasonable than most of the people on this forum. I don't feel, however, that Erikson's talents aren't in the subtle brushstrokes. He has a brilliantly creative mind and his world building and plot lines (when relevant) are weaved together expertly. His action and dialogue can also be top notch. His philisophical meanderings, however, I find to be poorly edited and just inane a lot of the time. There are plenty of exceptions to this and sometimes there are some pretty insightful passages in his books, but more often than not they just seem to be self-indulgent blabbering. That's why I wonder about his editors sometimes.... Despite my love for MBotF, I don't think I've ever read anything by anyone, who can write as much as SE can without actually saying anything worthwhile.

There's plenty of room for artistic meandering in books. There are tons of authors who do it right and I've loved their books. SE isn't one of them. I like his books for other reasons.


Agree to disagree, I suppose. I should probably divulge the fact that I'm a philosophy major and a grad student, not in the interest of boasting (who would ever boast of such a thing?) just because that could explain why I find SEs digressions enriching.

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

1

#87 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 05:09 PM

View PostAbberon, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Deus Ex Machina being a clichéd term doesn't really forgive the use of the mechanic itself in a book. It's not a literal term anymore. Anytime you have a problem resolved out of nowhere by previously unknown/unexpected powers/abilities/knowledge/whatever that's Deus Ex Machina. There are times when it actually works and can improve a book, but if not done skillfully it can just look plain sloppy. Steven Erikson seems to revel in Deus Ex Machina, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In my opinion, however, it eventually starts to get kind of lame.


As for why people seem to usually like the early books better, I think it's because they're usually more interesting. Like you said, in the first few volumes you're learning about the world and you have a sense of discovery, novelty and wonder. After 2-3 books, the world is generally understood, and you need to have a plan for the next few books that keeps the series interesting. I personally think a 10 book series is pure overkill, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be bad. You are going to lose people, however, if you don't give them a compelling reason to keep going. Personally, I would have probably preferred MBotF be condensed into 6-7 books maybe. The meandering philosophy, while sometimes good, is also often very bad, and it added 100's of pages to the later volumes in the series.


How was a problem resolved by a Dues Ex Machina? TBH got to the deserts edge then were in the path of a KCNR migration towards the last stronghold of KCCM, caused by the Errant. Now if you think Erikson engineered this to add a cliffhanger effect to the end of a book that was always going to end unresolved thats your call. However your reasoning seems a bit flawed ( no offence meant) as the factors you give are not relevant. Alot of your viewpoints seem to be aimed at the philosophy of the book which again is your call but on a book knowledge basis id say that 'previously unknown/unexpected powers/abilities/knowledge/whatever that's Deus Ex Machina' seems a bit loose.

The KCNR were not unknown. From TBH onwards they have been in the back ground and this is the first book we we have any insight into the KCCM so it was logical that its the first time we see the KCNR in any detail. Unexpected powers- Again KCNR in sky keeps were bound to be powerful and in the MT flashback with the Skykeeps, sorcery is described as raining down from above so even the weapons were forshadowed. We had knowledge of a massing of KCNR and we even have POV from them in the prologue of DOD showing them manipulating a dragon, so clearly they were players in this game. The only point youve made thats valid was that they were 'unexpected' which they were, but there hardly the most unexpected device SE has used. For example the book that you cite as excellent (MOI) has the Imass, when they could 'save the day' bowing towards the KCCM rather than simply destroying them.

In another comment above you noted that SE fans are extremely creative in validating his work I would agree with you on this in that sometimes we fill in some of his blanks. However you state that you have no problem with the concept of a Deus Ex Machina but simply disliked this one. What about Trull, the Knight of Shadow, bein knifed by a Patriotist thug or Maels servant turning up 400 pages after Brys's encounter with him and killing Rhulad. These ,to me atleast, are more far fetched yet were orchestrated in the same way (the Errant in this instance) by SE. I dont understand your negativity towards this particular plot resolution when there have been other before it.

As for your second point I do agree with you. I think the aura of adventure and discovery in the first 5 books loses some of its magic when these threads are fleshed out in the later books. Personally though I believe he has given his readers a reason to keep going. Theres still that element of mystery but I would say that sometimes it hasn been delivered, like in TBH, RG and ROTCG , which I enjoyed but found the Old Guard were brought back to be killed off.

As for the philosophical meanderings of Erikson I have to agree on this. I find them to be quite self indulgent at times but I have to say that may be a weakness on my (our?) part. They are incredibly deep and while I hated TTH the first time round its now my favorite SE novel, though I admit it may be too deep for me to ever fully grasp.

Its the philosophical meanderings that add depth to Eriksons characterisation and has me doing a full 10 books reread as well as ICE novels at the minute. So yes while I think your being a bit harsh to focus on a specific plot thread to call ridiculous yet swallow Eriksons earlier usage of such a style I do agree with you to an extent.

EDIT- Are we neg repping in the book threads now if someone doesnt like our viewpoint?

This post has been edited by Orb Sceptre Boat: 13 October 2011 - 05:14 PM

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#88 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

I've been neg repping because of disliking tone, not just viewpoint.

About the KCNR... I'm starting a reread of the series. And I found that they were possibly foreshadowed about 50 pages into GotM. No Deus Ex Machina if you ask me.
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#89 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:08 PM

View PostKanese S, on 13 October 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

I've been neg repping because of disliking tone, not just viewpoint.

About the KCNR... I'm starting a reread of the series. And I found that they were possibly foreshadowed about 50 pages into GotM. No Deus Ex Machina if you ask me.


Havnt read GOTM in so many years and have forgotten most of it despite having read it like 7-8 times. Can yu give me a brief overview of whats stated? I dont think their stated by name are they?

Yes tone is a problem over the internet especially. I would start giving out 'turn the other cheek/give them the benefit of the doubt' speeches but I genuinely hate how some members conduct themselves on the book forums and have called people on it before. That said I hope my (very) long point above doesnt offend as that was not its intention.

Also in GOTM we get the first mention of Gethol which is nice ;)
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#90 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:03 PM

View Posttiam, on 13 October 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

Alot of your viewpoints seem to be aimed at the philosophy of the book which again is your call but on a book knowledge basis id say that 'previously unknown/unexpected powers/abilities/knowledge/whatever that's Deus Ex Machina' seems a bit loose.


My use of the term Deus Ex Machina was, perhaps, loose. On the other hand, the thread has digressed in so many directions that I have to clarify that I wasn't focusing on DoD strictly but rather the series as a whole and SE's tendency to resolve battles and confrontations with giant alchemical or magical explosions and new power ups. I REALLY didn't like how the continent-devouring Letherii Army was wiped out in moments by Hannan Mosag's uber magic in MT and getting back to the thread topic I really don't like how the Burned Tears and tBH etc get tussled up with giant lizards with Sky Keeps that shoot magical beams.

View Posttiam, on 13 October 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

These ,to me atleast, are more far fetched yet were orchestrated in the same way (the Errant in this instance) by SE. I dont understand your negativity towards this particular plot resolution when there have been other before it.


You're right. I really mean to focus in on the fact that these things happen all over the place in the books. After 8-9 volumes of it, it gets kind of stale.

View Posttiam, on 13 October 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

Personally though I believe he has given his readers a reason to keep going. Theres still that element of mystery but I would say that sometimes it hasn been delivered, like in TBH, RG and ROTCG , which I enjoyed but found the Old Guard were brought back to be killed off.


Yes he definetly has. There have been tons of amazing moments in the later books (MT is my 2nd fav fyi).

View Posttiam, on 13 October 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

As for the philosophical meanderings of Erikson I have to agree on this. I find them to be quite self indulgent at times but I have to say that may be a weakness on my (our?) part. They are incredibly deep and while I hated TTH the first time round its now my favorite SE novel, though I admit it may be too deep for me to ever fully grasp.


Before I say anything, I want to just preface by saying no disrespect/mockery is intended. I just want to contend with your point that it may be a weakness on our part that we don't get SE's deepness". People will often find depth and meaning where and when they want to. Depth is also very much a matter of taste and opinion. A painted black circle on a white canvas, for some people, is high art and has endless depth. For a lot of other people, it's a pretentiously painted black circle and worth nothing but contempt. Similarly, Erikson's flowery language, I'm sure, for some people is just the epitome of artistic expression. For others (me included), it's often appears overwritten, self-indulgent and poorly edited. I don't for a second accept that people's dislike of SE's diatribes are a matter of them just being too dense to get it. Comparing him to Tolstoy (one of my favourite authors), who can get you thinking on a topic for hours with just a simple sentence (the opening line of Anna Karenina is brilliant), SE's efforts are often brutish. I feel like he's forcing imagery down my throat. He takes a simple point, uses as many words as possible stated with as much rhetoric as possible, to say something like, "the sea is relentless". It's incredibly tedious.

I like his writing DESPITE that, certainly not because of it.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 13 October 2011 - 11:06 PM

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#91 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:17 PM

View PostKanese S, on 13 October 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

I've been neg repping because of disliking tone, not just viewpoint.


Kanese you've been nothing but diligent in your negative repping of me in this thread. Probably 50% of my negative rep on this forum is directly from you, and you've done it so many times in this thread it's comical. Even if my post is completely civil you do it. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but all the power to you.
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#92 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:02 AM

View Posttiam, on 13 October 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 13 October 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

I've been neg repping because of disliking tone, not just viewpoint.

About the KCNR... I'm starting a reread of the series. And I found that they were possibly foreshadowed about 50 pages into GotM. No Deus Ex Machina if you ask me.


Havnt read GOTM in so many years and have forgotten most of it despite having read it like 7-8 times. Can yu give me a brief overview of whats stated? I dont think their stated by name are they?

Yes tone is a problem over the internet especially. I would start giving out 'turn the other cheek/give them the benefit of the doubt' speeches but I genuinely hate how some members conduct themselves on the book forums and have called people on it before. That said I hope my (very) long point above doesnt offend as that was not its intention.

Also in GOTM we get the first mention of Gethol which is nice ;)


It's in the part where Ganoes and Topper are walking through the Imperial Warren. They find some human remains and then there's mention of evidence of something large passing through. I know, that's tenuous, but still.

Also, to Abberon's post about the Letherii army getting wiped out by Mosag's sorcery... they'd fought mainly small tribes for quite a while. The Edur used sorcery that the Letherii had never seen before. The same thing happened that I'd expect to happen when an army goes up against something they had no expectation of or experience with... they lost, badly. Why is that in any way surprising?

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 14 October 2011 - 06:07 AM

Laseen did nothing wrong.

I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
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#93 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:16 AM

View PostAbberon, on 13 October 2011 - 11:17 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 13 October 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

I've been neg repping because of disliking tone, not just viewpoint.


Kanese you've been nothing but diligent in your negative repping of me in this thread. Probably 50% of my negative rep on this forum is directly from you, and you've done it so many times in this thread it's comical. Even if my post is completely civil you do it. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but all the power to you.


I only neg rep the posts that I find to be ridiculously arrogant and pretentious to the point of being insulting. So far, that's most of your posts, in my eyes.

I dislike your whole attitude of "I don't like this... therefore something must be wrong with it, and the author must have made a mistake, and everyone who likes it is stupid!" What's so hard about "Eh, not really my thing"? You consistently argue that things that I love about both series should not exist, should never have been included by the authors.

You constantly make the comparison to Tolstoy about how much you hate the philosophical meandering. You just talked about something in Tolstoy making you think for hours. Yet you just say, as an absolute statement, that Erikson can't do that. Well, guess what, he just can't make YOU do that. For other people, the philosophical ideas are one of the main strengths of his writing. It's like you feel that you are the ultimate arbiter of what should be in novels. It's incredibly irritating.

I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours where you did not complain about or simply bash something about the books. You come into threads and trash things about the books that I really like. Often from a position of ignorance. It gets old. In fact, it got old a long time ago.

If anyone posts anything to address your complaints or explanations for why things happened the way they did in the series, you say that they're just making stuff up or making excuses. No matter how clear their evidence for their arguments, you just dismiss whatever they say.

So, I decided that since you weren't going to listen to anything I said in response to your ridiculous complaints, I'd just express my displeasure a less time-consuming way.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 14 October 2011 - 06:20 AM

Laseen did nothing wrong.

I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
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#94 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 02:42 PM

Just a general point without taking sides, I've neg-repped maybe one person in my entire time on these boards and it was for making a horribly offensive, borderline racist statement in all seriousness.

People are going to rub you the wrong way in intellectual disagreements, and people are going to come off as arrogant and pretentious in a fucking fantasy book forum. Sorry, but I doubt there's a regular on these boards who hasn't come off to someone else as pretentious or arrogant at one point or another. I've wanted to punch worrywort in the dick dozens of times because he has the snarkiest tone I've seen on a forum. But he also supports every single one of his claims with evidence and sound reason (and is damned funny besides) so I've never neg-repped him.

Get in the mud and sling arguments around all you want over SE, but for my part, it's absolutely ridiculous and childish to neg-rep someone unless they cross basic lines of decency and humanism.

Also, even if you think you're 100% right, it's never a bad idea to enter into any discourse on any matter (but especially on subjective matters like, say, a fucking fantasy series) with the preface "I might be wrong." I'd say probably 60% of the posts in question where people are neg-repping each other in this thread would have been 10x more palatable with that four word disclaimer attached. It takes two seconds and it in no way weakens (one could argue it actually strengthens) your argument.

It's also fine to agree to disagree and leave the thread without neg-repping someone just because you can't persuade them to share your opinion with a wall of pseudo-inflammatory words.

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

5

#95 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:06 PM

Kanese you really need to get over it. Your beef against me goes back like 5-6 months when I made fun of you. You're still hung up over it. I haven't told anyone in this thread that their arguments are stupid, nor have I told anyone they're just making excuses. If you get insulted by the fact that I don't like certain aspects of SE's writing, that's your problem and it's kind of sad that you're so invested in it.

You're saying I'm making absolute statements about SE, so let's examine my quote from just a few replies back:

Similarly, Erikson's flowery language, I'm sure, for some people is just the epitome of artistic expression. For others (me included), it's often appears overwritten, self-indulgent and poorly edited.

This isn't in any way an absolute statement. I've been very careful to include such mitigated language here for risk of offending your (and other's) tender feelings. I'm not telling people they're stupid. I'm not telling them that they're wrong about liking SE's writing. You, and numerous other people here, however, are clearly VERY upset that I'd dare voice criticism against him. The usual response is, "you just don't get it." which is, in itself, patronizing. It's as if it's just impossible for someone to understand SE's writing, but not like it.

As for me not posting anything but negative remarks, that's just not true. My criticism has been consistent and focused largely on this book (DoD) and on how I think SE should have kept the books tighter. Take it personally if you like, but like I said, that's your problem and it's kind of sad that you're still smarting from an argument we had months ago...

Now I must hide from the mods...who are sure to fall upon us soon....;)
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#96 User is offline   Ceda Cicero 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:16 PM

View PostAbberon, on 14 October 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

Kanese you really need to get over it. Your beef against me goes back like 5-6 months when I made fun of you. You're still hung up over it. I haven't told anyone in this thread that their arguments are stupid, nor have I told anyone they're just making excuses. If you get insulted by the fact that I don't like certain aspects of SE's writing, that's your problem and it's kind of sad that you're so invested in it.

You're saying I'm making absolute statements about SE, so let's examine my quote from just a few replies back:

Similarly, Erikson's flowery language, I'm sure, for some people is just the epitome of artistic expression. For others (me included), it's often appears overwritten, self-indulgent and poorly edited.

This isn't in any way an absolute statement. I've been very careful to include such mitigated language here for risk of offending your (and other's) tender feelings. I'm not telling people they're stupid. I'm not telling them that they're wrong about liking SE's writing. You, and numerous other people here, however, are clearly VERY upset that I'd dare voice criticism against him. The usual response is, "you just don't get it." which is, in itself, patronizing. It's as if it's just impossible for someone to understand SE's writing, but not like it.

As for me not posting anything but negative remarks, that's just not true. My criticism has been consistent and focused largely on this book (DoD) and on how I think SE should have kept the books tighter. Take it personally if you like, but like I said, that's your problem and it's kind of sad that you're still smarting from an argument we had months ago...

Now I must hide from the mods...who are sure to fall upon us soon....;)


I'll save Abyss the trouble...

Thread is beginning to dissolve into arguing about what we're arguing about.

View PostIlluyankas, on 07 April 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

How do you rape a cave? Do you ask, "You want to fuck, yes?" hear the echo come back, "Yes... es... es..." and get your barnacle-gouged groove on?

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#97 User is offline   Orlion 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:02 PM

View PostAbberon, on 14 October 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

Now I must hide from the mods...who are sure to fall upon us soon....;)


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#98 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:22 PM

View PostCeda Cicero, on 14 October 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

...
I'll save Abyss the trouble...

Thread is beginning to dissolve into arguing about what we're arguing about.



Ahem.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
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#99 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:29 PM

View PostKanese S, on 14 October 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

View Posttiam, on 13 October 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 13 October 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

I've been neg repping because of disliking tone, not just viewpoint.

About the KCNR... I'm starting a reread of the series. And I found that they were possibly foreshadowed about 50 pages into GotM. No Deus Ex Machina if you ask me.


Havnt read GOTM in so many years and have forgotten most of it despite having read it like 7-8 times. Can yu give me a brief overview of whats stated? I dont think their stated by name are they?

Yes tone is a problem over the internet especially. I would start giving out 'turn the other cheek/give them the benefit of the doubt' speeches but I genuinely hate how some members conduct themselves on the book forums and have called people on it before. That said I hope my (very) long point above doesnt offend as that was not its intention.

Also in GOTM we get the first mention of Gethol which is nice :rofl:


It's in the part where Ganoes and Topper are walking through the Imperial Warren. They find some human remains and then there's mention of evidence of something large passing through. I know, that's tenuous, but still.

Also, to Abberon's post about the Letherii army getting wiped out by Mosag's sorcery... they'd fought mainly small tribes for quite a while. The Edur used sorcery that the Letherii had never seen before. The same thing happened that I'd expect to happen when an army goes up against something they had no expectation of or experience with... they lost, badly. Why is that in any way surprising?


My god that foreshadowing is early but yes your right very thin :)

As for Mossag sorcery being effective against the Letherii please bear with me.

It wasnt so much a case of the Letherii had been fighting smaller tribes for a while, I dont think that point can be made as we have no idea how many Nerek, Faraed and Tartheno (though these are usually smaller in number then the other two) there were to begin with. Granted the Edur may have been vastly more numerous than what the Letherii have faced but there an easier explanation. We are directly told after Nekal Bara and Co destroy the Edur villages that there was good reason the Letherii never lost a war, thus implying superior magical talents. Three mages of high mage stature destroyed the Edur villages. The Ceda comments on the Edur sorcery and atleast he was familiar with it commenting on how their magic was both impressive and how effective their healers were. The Northern mages were also most likely aware of Edur sorcery. So ignorance of Edur sorcery cannot be relied upon. Of course the sorcery emplyed was different, choatic in nature, and very powerful.

However it actually boils down to a knife to a gunfight scenario. The calibre of the Letherii mages of this stage in the invasion was of such a low quality that they could not counter Hannan Mossag. Had the Edur not had Hannan Mossag (or Rhulad for that matter) and the Ceda had been present at the battle we may well have seen a similar scenario of annihilation against the Edur. When Cuttle is training a battalion at the beginning of RG we see that the battalion had suffered over 60% casualties on numerous occasions probably not all during the recent invasion. Letherii engagements that involved sorcery seem to have cared as much about the common soldier as Tay did at Moons Spawn. Even the assault on the villages by Nekal Bara and Co killed a few soldiers.

Thus Letherii warfare seems to be dominated by formation of troops that simply weathered the blasts of magic fire. Undoubtedly Unnatal Hebaz (general of the Letherii as im not sure thats her name) expected to weather significant mage fire, given her analysis of Edur magic from recent accounts or a conversation with the Ceda before he went 'nuts', but relied on the size and strength of her army to power through,likely expecting high casualties as noted in the cuttle training section mentioned above. Had the Ceda been present he may well have tipped the balance in favour of the Letherii or atleast countered Mosag and nullified Rhulad.

So it wasnt a case of 'unexpected force turns up out of nowhere' but actually was a conclusion of the philosophy of the mages throughout MT. They comment throughout that often all the mages do is cancel each other out then (Nekal Bara when the chained Edur god strikes I believe) one of them comments 'of course,unless one side finds themselves outmatched).

It was actually an embodiment of Eriksons philosophising that I actually really enjoyed.

Edit
Abberon quote
Similarly, Erikson's flowery language, I'm sure, for some people is just the epitome of artistic expression. For others (me included), it's often appears overwritten, self-indulgent and poorly edited.

Self indulgent arguably yes. I think the conflict here is your tone. Your attacking one of the main reason some (not me) read Erikson: epic prose and narrative structure. I wasnt offended by your dismissal of the idea that I (and by extension you)' dont get it' but I understand that yes people can find meaning in things other think are terrible. Your comment about modern art is valid but only for art. Erikson himself has acknowledged that there is a subtext to everything he does and some of his fans (again not me) enjoy it alot. You can also gain plot elements, motivation of characters that would otherwise be unclear, foreshadowing etc from his 'flowery writing' so I dont mind it so much I just feel dumb when I read it :D

Sorry for the epic posts recently but atleast its on topic ;)

This post has been edited by tiam: 14 October 2011 - 06:49 PM

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#100 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:11 PM

For the record, if any of you plan to punch me someday, please make it anywhere other than the genitals.
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