Malazan Empire: Ok, lets get real about the K'Chain Che'Malle for a second - Malazan Empire

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Ok, lets get real about the K'Chain Che'Malle for a second Rate Topic: -----

#101 User is offline   Zenstrive 

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:59 AM

The way I see it, is that as archaelogist, Erikson wants to put Dinosaurs, Cavemens, Ice Ages, and Ancient Animals into his fantasy novels. Thus born K'Chain Ka'mell, Imass, Eresal, the Omtose Phellack, and giant hounds and wolves.

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#102 User is offline   Phaedrus 

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 09:26 AM

Am I the only one who gets a distinct "insectoid" vibe from them? Like the whole race would seem a whole lot more realistic if they werent sapient dinosaurs with sword arms? Their society reminds me very much of how an ant colony works.
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#103 User is offline   IgnatiusKruppe 

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

"Is that some sort of street thug slang that you use?"
Easily my least favorite thing I've ever read here. I want to go wash my eyes out.
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#104 User is offline   Sibylle 

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostPhaedrus, on 28 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who gets a distinct "insectoid" vibe from them? Like the whole race would seem a whole lot more realistic if they werent sapient dinosaurs with sword arms? Their society reminds me very much of how an ant colony works.

I would've liked them more as the insect-like things from Space Troopers:
Awesome and yet believable in the movie :)
I also dislike the whole dinosaur with swords for arms idea. It was fine when they were extinct, in that case much of the over-the-top shit could have been made up in legends and myths around them....but actual alive KCCM and KCN suck. It is just too much over the top and forced, I agree with much of what has been said in this topic except for the obvious fanboy statements that they rock because SE is awesome!

The series is still good and a masterpiece, but this is one of its major flaws. During the last 25% of the book (and the last 10% completely) I was thinking: "yeah right...so why is this relevant again and why are these dinosaurs suddenly not extinct anymore?" or "any minute now and the green jade things turn out to be spaceships with even more awesome lasers and magic, filled with cloned QuickBen's and Rake's in Eleint d'ivers form"

The whole idea just suffered from the same thing all epic fantasy does: the epicness get's replaced by something more epic and that by something even more epic etc. and in the end you end up with some crazy over the top tale that makes no sense. Better SE had left the KCCM extinct with all sorts of epic tales surrounding them.

Oh, and one more thing: if an army of K'Chain Nah'ruk charge the bonehunters, there is no way in hell heavies/marines will hold for even one second. The dinosaurs will just devastate the whole army without a sweat. So the whole 'even holding against impossible odds' (and thus the epicness) was taken too far.


I am glad to have some criticism on SE, it would've scared me if I would've loved everything :)
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#105 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostSibylle, on 15 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

View PostPhaedrus, on 28 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who gets a distinct "insectoid" vibe from them? Like the whole race would seem a whole lot more realistic if they werent sapient dinosaurs with sword arms? Their society reminds me very much of how an ant colony works.

I would've liked them more as the insect-like things from Space Troopers: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jPE00A6b9TY
Awesome and yet believable in the movie :)



STARSHIP (not space) Troopers > MBotF?!?! Not too sure about that.

Quote

I also dislike the whole dinosaur with swords for arms idea. It was fine when they were extinct, in that case much of the over-the-top shit could have been made up in legends and myths around them....but actual alive KCCM and KCN suck. It is just too much over the top and forced, I agree with much of what has been said in this topic except for the obvious fanboy statements that they rock because SE is awesome!


Certainly your own opinion of course, but there's no reason to think that they SHOULDN'T exist, and the swords, if you read throughout the book were adaptations from the matron. Perfectly plausible in the world of the books.

Quote


The series is still good and a masterpiece, but this is one of its major flaws. During the last 25% of the book (and the last 10% completely) I was thinking: "yeah right...so why is this relevant again and why are these dinosaurs suddenly not extinct anymore?" or "any minute now and the green jade things turn out to be spaceships with even more awesome lasers and magic, filled with cloned QuickBen's and Rake's in Eleint d'ivers form"



They weren't "suddenly not extinct", but rather severely dwindled due to being wiped out by the KCNR. As for the second part, well, never let it be said that SE does not defy expectations.

Quote

The whole idea just suffered from the same thing all epic fantasy does: the epicness get's replaced by something more epic and that by something even more epic etc. and in the end you end up with some crazy over the top tale that makes no sense. Better SE had left the KCCM extinct with all sorts of epic tales surrounding them.



I don't know how that would have been better. Especiall concerning what happens next in the Crippled God.


Quote

Oh, and one more thing: if an army of K'Chain Nah'ruk charge the bonehunters, there is no way in hell heavies/marines will hold for even one second. The dinosaurs will just devastate the whole army without a sweat. So the whole 'even holding against impossible odds' (and thus the epicness) was taken too far.



One of the main points of the series is how humans are constantly underestimated yet then rise from their humble roots to defy the powers of Gods and Ascendents and shape the world according their strength. Not to mention that The Bonehunters are more than the sum of their parts. Plus they have Tavore, Lostara, Quick ben, Ruthan Gudd, Sinn, Grubb, and then they needed the help of a near-God Icarium to carry them to a quite pyrrich victory, if I do say so.


Quote

I am glad to have some criticism on SE, it would've scared me if I would've loved everything :)


Nothing wrong with criticism, and I appreciate your voice, but this story aint over yet. All the players still have roles to play, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised about how they turn out.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#106 User is offline   Sibylle 

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostStalking Stonny, on 15 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

STARSHIP (not space) Troopers > MBotF?!?! Not too sure about that.

Certainly your own opinion of course, but there's no reason to think that they SHOULDN'T exist, and the swords, if you read throughout the book were adaptations from the matron. Perfectly plausible in the world of the books.

They weren't "suddenly not extinct", but rather severely dwindled due to being wiped out by the KCNR. As for the second part, well, never let it be said that SE does not defy expectations.

I don't know how that would have been better. Especiall concerning what happens next in the Crippled God.

One of the main points of the series is how humans are constantly underestimated yet then rise from their humble roots to defy the powers of Gods and Ascendents and shape the world according their strength. Not to mention that The Bonehunters are more than the sum of their parts. Plus they have Tavore, Lostara, Quick ben, Ruthan Gudd, Sinn, Grubb, and then they needed the help of a near-God Icarium to carry them to a quite pyrrich victory, if I do say so.



You take my post rather personally like an attack you have to defend against, let me assure you: there is no need.

Of course Starship Troopers (typo with the space) isnt better than MBotF, but the insect like aliens would've been more suitable for the task now set upon dinosaurs :D
I still find it very hard to believe there was no mentioning of (a great number of) living KCCM and KCNR throughout the whole series, not even by powerful being, gods, travellers etc. and suddenly there are thousands of them and a whole realm of KCNR with dozens of skykeeps. It just doesn't fit right and feels a bit last minute planning.
btw, I do read very thoroughly and I do know the swords are added on later and grow/fuse with the arms, but still....it sounds a bit strange and unfitting to the race.

Reading the Crippled God atm, very exite to see what happens :D
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#107 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

There isn't a great number of them. There's one Matron living in a stationary skykeep in the middle of The Wastelands, along with a retinue of various KCCM. They've retreated into seclusion, they grow their own food, etc. The Matron then starts to breed more once war is on the horizon, and it drives her insane and basically kills her in the end. The KCNR skykeeps in the Imperial Warren have been mentioned since way back in the series, I think probably since HoC (Pearl and Lostara see them right?).
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#108 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostSibylle, on 01 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

View PostStalking Stonny, on 15 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

STARSHIP (not space) Troopers > MBotF?!?! Not too sure about that.

Certainly your own opinion of course, but there's no reason to think that they SHOULDN'T exist, and the swords, if you read throughout the book were adaptations from the matron. Perfectly plausible in the world of the books.

They weren't "suddenly not extinct", but rather severely dwindled due to being wiped out by the KCNR. As for the second part, well, never let it be said that SE does not defy expectations.

I don't know how that would have been better. Especiall concerning what happens next in the Crippled God.

One of the main points of the series is how humans are constantly underestimated yet then rise from their humble roots to defy the powers of Gods and Ascendents and shape the world according their strength. Not to mention that The Bonehunters are more than the sum of their parts. Plus they have Tavore, Lostara, Quick ben, Ruthan Gudd, Sinn, Grubb, and then they needed the help of a near-God Icarium to carry them to a quite pyrrich victory, if I do say so.



You take my post rather personally like an attack you have to defend against, let me assure you: there is no need.

Of course Starship Troopers (typo with the space) isnt better than MBotF, but the insect like aliens would've been more suitable for the task now set upon dinosaurs :D
I still find it very hard to believe there was no mentioning of (a great number of) living KCCM and KCNR throughout the whole series, not even by powerful being, gods, travellers etc. and suddenly there are thousands of them and a whole realm of KCNR with dozens of skykeeps. It just doesn't fit right and feels a bit last minute planning.
btw, I do read very thoroughly and I do know the swords are added on later and grow/fuse with the arms, but still....it sounds a bit strange and unfitting to the race.

Reading the Crippled God atm, very exite to see what happens :D



No personal insult was intended and I apologize if it sounded that way.

I think there was evidence of the KCNR in The Bonehunters, as well as Topper's comment in RotCG, when he said the original residents were coming to "fumigate".

Also considering the KCNR's technological advancements like giant frikkin' lasers, being able to hide them from an already waning pantheon of increasing irrelevance doesn't seem far fetched.

This post has been edited by Stalking Stonny: 01 March 2013 - 06:32 PM

Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#109 User is offline   D'iversify 

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

View PostPhaedrus, on 28 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who gets a distinct "insectoid" vibe from them? Like the whole race would seem a whole lot more realistic if they werent sapient dinosaurs with sword arms? Their society reminds me very much of how an ant colony works.
Insects aren't the only kind of organisms to have evolved eusociality and hive communities (and it has evolved several times within insects). Naked model rats are the most well known non-insect example. And they're seriously weird things. And given how weird evolution is on Earth, why shouldn't sentient reptilians on Wu develop eusociality. And the insect trope is, especially in science fiction, a little overdone, so reptiles are quite refreshing.
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#110 User is offline   Herrick The Younger 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:20 AM

I'm still horrified at what happened to Toc The Younger while he was with the Matron in Memories of Ice so I can't think of the K'Chain Che'Malle as juvenile :unsure:
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#111 User is offline   Kruppe of Darujhistan 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:27 AM

I just assume the K'Chain (like the Segulah) were one of ICE's (many) silly ideas, to which SE applied his potent Word Magic, whence it 'ascended' to deliciousness.
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#112 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:49 AM

What's silly about either?
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#113 User is offline   Kruppe of Darujhistan 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:06 AM

The OP and a number of other posts in this topic speak to the silliness of the K'Chain, so I need not address that.

The Segulah: A warrior society solely and wholly based on who can kick whose ass, With numbered masks for accounting purposes. That seems pretty damn silly to me. SE somehow manages to make me forget that. It probably helps that the Segulah are only shown in small groups or flying solo.
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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:53 PM

Thread was dead for three years so was re-curious on the KC point. I still disagree with the OP.
As for the Seguleh, warrior / warrior monk societies are hardly a novel concept, nor are masks that reflect social standing, and both are rooted in reality. SE took both ideas and came up with something most fans of the books are utterly taken with. I agree that part of the reason is the limited intro.... By introducing the Seguleh via Mok and his sidekicks and just allowing a few hints in MoI, he guaranteed reader interest. But the base of that is anything but silly.
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#115 User is offline   Kruppe of Darujhistan 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:52 PM

Don't get me wrong. I love both the K'Chain and the Segulah. As someone mentioned up-thread, demanding a fantasy author to adhere to reality is ludicrous. But the Segulah in particular (or the way in which they're depicted) could have been more realistic. Wherre are all the disgruntled and/or corrupt Segulah?. We have Rillish, who opted out due to what he considered a bad call by the judges, but that's about it. There is a bit about the Segulah service sector citizens, who are farmers and shoemakers and whatnot, but you'd think the rest of the world would be crawling with 2nd rate Segulah. Those who may be #749 (or whatever) with little hope of advancement who would leave to be pretty fair badasses elsewhere.
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#116 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:38 PM

Aside from the top 1000 having no reason to leave, sounds like you're describing exactly what's depicted in the books (rogue & castoff Seguleh finding employment elsewhere) and then asking why it's not there.
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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:47 PM

Yep....Rell, the two guards in TtH, and more I won't spoil bcs this is the DoD forum.
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#118 User is offline   Hairshirt 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:54 PM

I imagine there's plenty of rogue/castoff Seguleh around being guards or mercenaries. Did anyone else immediately think of the Seguleh when reading Rothfuss and the Adem mercenaries came on screen or was it just me?
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#119 User is offline   Kruppe of Darujhistan 

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 08:11 PM

Yeah, I completely forgot about those two guards you mention, and I also remembered some other Seguleh who came to light. I did a Seguleh search in the ICE book forums and there were quite a few hits as well. I stand corrected.

As a bonus, I am no longer spelling "Seguleh" wrong. Now to work on "Rellish."
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