Malazan Empire: Ok, lets get real about the K'Chain Che'Malle for a second - Malazan Empire

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Ok, lets get real about the K'Chain Che'Malle for a second Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   Ivanhoe 

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:13 PM

['stender'

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Okay, I have never like the K'Chain Che'Malle. They have always struck me as what a 9-year old and his best friend would come up with and draw in their spiral notebooks when they should be doing homework.

I mean lets be completely realistic... these are a race of super-intelligent...velociraptors...from outer-space...with swords for arms.... I mean how the hell are they supposed to work the handle on the steel kitchen door to get in and kill the kids when they have swords for arms?(Did anyone get that reference?) Every time they come up I picture this from Calvin and Hobbes:


It helps me to view the KC as similar to ant colonies. The matron breeds offspring equiped to fulfill specific tasks. When she needs warriors, she breeds an army of them etc. That there are different and waring species also fits well with the concept as does their telepathic communication.
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#42 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 07:34 PM

They are still kind of silly. I wish they weren't part of the series but I can live with it. The whole final battle at the end of this book though, with the space ships and death rays however, verged on hilarity to me. It was a low point for the series...along with much of this book....
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#43 User is offline   Ivanhoe 

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 03:22 PM

'Abberon'

They are still kind of silly. I wish they weren't part of the series but I can live with it.


I get that. On first encounter the KC do seem very alien, very crude. But as I pointed out earlier, not so far fetched (this is a UK term I hope you recognise) as nature here on earth is very diverse, and extremily adaptable.

We tend to view eveything in human terms, but just imagine super intelligent creatures we know about, as I imagine SE has. How would we expect giant crabs with a brain to behave? For one thing they can metamorphose and regenerate limbs. 'fantacism'?. How would they view humans? That's what good story tellers do to entertain us, what they are great at, and why we readers marvel at their talent.
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#44 User is offline   D'iversify 

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 04:48 PM

View PostIvanhoe, on 14 September 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

How would we expect giant crabs with a brain to behave? For one thing they can metamorphose and regenerate limbs. 'fantacism'?. How would they view humans?
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#45 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:38 PM

Ivanhoe I don't really have any problem with the idea of an intelligent hive-mindish semi-sentient race of reptiles, it's more how they are incorporated into this book that I don't appreciate. I was sort of okay with them in MoI and whatnot, because they were extinct, but when they came back with the flying death ships...in the thousands....that was just too wtf for me.

I think it's a matter of personal opinion, but I just can't stand when a fantasy author turns his battles into magical explosion and laser beam fights. I mean...what the heck is the point of having an army if you have flying mountains that shoot death rays? In a similar manner, the whole idea of an army of humans fighting an army of KCCM, especially when we're shown how deady they are in MoI, is kind of hard for me to follow. An army of thousands of KCCM (or Nahruk whatever), given how big they are and how fast they move, would hit the Bonehunters like freight trains. I just feel like it kind of trivializes the Bonehunters, which is unfortunate considering we spend most of our time from Book 4 -10 following them.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 15 September 2011 - 06:39 PM

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#46 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 11:48 PM

View PostAbberon, on 15 September 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Ivanhoe I don't really have any problem with the idea of an intelligent hive-mindish semi-sentient race of reptiles, it's more how they are incorporated into this book that I don't appreciate. I was sort of okay with them in MoI and whatnot, because they were extinct, but when they came back with the flying death ships...in the thousands....that was just too wtf for me.

I think it's a matter of personal opinion, but I just can't stand when a fantasy author turns his battles into magical explosion and laser beam fights. I mean...what the heck is the point of having an army if you have flying mountains that shoot death rays? In a similar manner, the whole idea of an army of humans fighting an army of KCCM, especially when we're shown how deady they are in MoI, is kind of hard for me to follow. An army of thousands of KCCM (or Nahruk whatever), given how big they are and how fast they move, would hit the Bonehunters like freight trains. I just feel like it kind of trivializes the Bonehunters, which is unfortunate considering we spend most of our time from Book 4 -10 following them.


trivializes? more like immortalizes
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#47 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 04:28 PM

Have to disagree. I go back to my point of how I'm not pleased when fantasy authors turn clashes of armies into magical explosion fights where the soldiers are little more than pulpy targets to blow up. I get that it 'immortalizes' the Bonehunters to face impossible odds and not run away (like the 7th Army, or Onearm's Host at Coral), but it starts to feel like there's no point in having armies in the first place when they're so easily mangled by magic, dragons, or dino-soldiers. The Bonehunters are supposed to be an epic force of humanity and yeah, I get that they might face some nasty stuff along the way, but tens of thousands of KCCM or KCNR, each of which is probably equal to 10+ human soldiers, with flying laser ships backing them up, well, it makes the Bonehunter army irrelevant.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 16 September 2011 - 04:29 PM

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#48 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM

View PostAbberon, on 16 September 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

Have to disagree. I go back to my point of how I'm not pleased when fantasy authors turn clashes of armies into magical explosion fights where the soldiers are little more than pulpy targets to blow up. I get that it 'immortalizes' the Bonehunters to face impossible odds and not run away (like the 7th Army, or Onearm's Host at Coral), but it starts to feel like there's no point in having armies in the first place when they're so easily mangled by magic, dragons, or dino-soldiers. The Bonehunters are supposed to be an epic force of humanity and yeah, I get that they might face some nasty stuff along the way, but tens of thousands of KCCM or KCNR, each of which is probably equal to 10+ human soldiers, with flying laser ships backing them up, well, it makes the Bonehunter army irrelevant.


You're participating in Reductio Ad Absurdam now, and it's just plain silly.

You are saying that BECAUSE it seems insurmountable, and that magic and KCCM so devastatingly out-match the BH that we should not have battles with foot soldiers, marines et al. at all. Then you wouldn't have battle sequences in the book. Instead you'd have tactical sky keep attacks that decimate the Malazan armies. Wow, HOW BORING.

Beyond that, you're silly argument also seems to confuse itself and make a case against itself. Saying that "I get that it 'immortalizes' the Bonehunters to face impossible odds and not run away" and then follow that with a reason why it shouldn't in the book is entirely contradictory.

So let's get one thing straight here....you obviously DON'T GET that they are immortalized by it and that by their very challenging of such forces speaks volumes to what the ENTIRE SERIES IS ABOUT...so try not to contradict yourself and claim you do get that, because your reason for disliking the KCCM defeats any statement that claims to understand their inclusion.

Beyond that, how many fantasy books exist where the bad guy foot soldiers are either ogres, or trolls, or trollocs, or orcs who are (for the most part) fairly mindless and brutal...and how FRESH was it to have one where there is not only a sentient race of giant raptors, but that their technology rivals anything even humans have come up with to that point?

As to the KCCM represented in MOI. They were two (IIRC)...and they faced off against....what (how many in the caravan?) like 6 people tops? Most of which were NOT trained soldiers, and even the ones who COULD fight weren't elite or anything ans none of them had magic (IIRC). Yeah the KCCM tore them a new one, but that doesn't mean that an army of thousands of organized humans set against them couldn't take them out or do a lot of damage.

Saying that the Bonheunters are irrelevant because of the type of enemy they face is flat out ridiculous. Tell that to the Roman Empire when they challenged the Vercingetorix and his forces in Gaul, or when Ghengis Khan's Mongol hordes took on the Islamic state armies ten times their size during the crusades, if the greatest army to ever walk the planet could organize themselves and use sheer tactical genius against a bigger more powerful enemy and win, then the BH can take on the KCCM or KCNR. It's as simple as that.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 September 2011 - 07:14 PM

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#49 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 10:55 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

You're participating in Reductio Ad Absurdam now, and it's just plain silly.


You're using clichéd terms you don't even really understand.

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

You are saying that BECAUSE it seems insurmountable, and that magic and KCCM so devastatingly out-match the BH that we should not have battles with foot soldiers, marines et al. at all. Then you wouldn't have battle sequences in the book. Instead you'd have tactical sky keep attacks that decimate the Malazan armies. Wow, HOW BORING.


Wait...hold on. I thought I said that I didn't like the sky keeps and the KCCM didn't I? Isn't that what this thread was about? You'd THINK that my statement would lead you to believe that I'd prefer the KCCM, sky keeps and apocalyptic sorcery be absent instead, and NOT the Bonehunters. Somehow, however, your special logic got that twisted up.

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

As to the KCCM represented in MOI. They were two (IIRC)...and they faced off against....what (how many in the caravan?) like 6 people tops? Most of which were NOT trained soldiers, and even the ones who COULD fight weren't elite or anything ans none of them had magic (IIRC).


Umm...I'm not sure what copy you read. Mine had the KCCM present throughout the entire book. I seem to recall Paran, Onearm and the Bridgeburners (elite infantry with magic and munitions at their disposal) running mad scared from the KCCM and getting absolutely decimated in Coral.

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

Saying that the Bonheunters are irrelevant because of the type of enemy they face is flat out ridiculous. Tell that to the Roman Empire when they challenged the Vercingetorix and his forces in Gaul, or when Ghengis Khan's Mongol hordes took on the Islamic state armies ten times their size during the crusades, if the greatest army to ever walk the planet could organize themselves and use sheer tactical genius against a bigger more powerful enemy and win, then the BH can take on the KCCM or KCNR. It's as simple as that.


You're just the king of logical fallacy aren't you? Caesar vs the Gauls, or the Mongols vs Kwharizmi, would be like the Army of the Apocalypes vs Chain of Dogs, or Pannion Domin vs Capustan. It's an epic Alamo-esque sort of thing. Bonehunters vs KCNR on the other hand, is more like Iraqi Republic Guard vs US Army supported by US Airforce. Get back to me if you can understand the difference.
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#50 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 11:03 PM

Think of it this way. If they hadn't existed, you'd have one less thing to complain about, and then where would that leave us?
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#51 User is offline   Ivanhoe 

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 12:27 AM

'Abberon'

Ivanhoe I don't really have any problem with the idea of an intelligent hive-mindish semi-sentient race of reptiles, it's more how they are incorporated into this book that I don't appreciate. I was sort of okay with them in MoI and whatnot, because they were extinct, but when they came back with the flying death ships...in the thousands....that was just too wtf for me.

Then we do have a sort of agreement.
Earlier you mentioned the KC limbs and whatnot, and all I expressed was that such a species is not stretching things too far. Like you I did not enjoy the KC angle as much as most of the other races/species. To my mind it (the book) wasn't enhanced by their armoured appearence, though we do know they were about. I rather think it must have been difficult for KC to draw the book to an end and include all those factions we know of. I guess he struggled somewhat to do that and make it climactic as he sort of must (or what's the point).

All I really wanted to say was that it worked at a certain level, even if it isn't the most captivating - there is so much to live up to.

Respect Ivanhoe.



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#52 User is offline   Blueiron 

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 06:45 AM

This thread is starting to get nasty.

stop and think. Are you going to get riled up about a bunch of dinosaurs with swords? Seriously? Personally I think they're really well handled, but that doesn't make Abberon a stupid person, because it all hinges on a matter of preferences anyway. Thank you for your level-headedness, ladies and gentlemen

onwards...
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#53 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:31 PM

Flame wars in 5...4...3...2...

I loved the KC concept, execution, all of it. The skykeeps do kick things up to a larger scale from squad-level to army-level, but that's OK. It's usual to see things that are super tough early on that the heroes have to eventually face, as part of the developing plot. At least there weren't any dragons, that would have been totally unbelievable.

Now, who wants to mix the genes of Tiam with some KCCM? I do, in my next volume of work titled: "Give up before the adventure starts, the gods are against it" Out in Spring 2099.
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#54 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 06:06 PM

I like when QT and Abbs argue. It adds a little spice to the sauce. Doesn't even really come close to "nasty".
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#55 User is offline   Blueiron 

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 08:42 PM

View Postworrywort, on 17 September 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

I like when QT and Abbs argue. It adds a little spice to the sauce. Doesn't even really come close to "nasty".


I dunno, I thought "using clichéd terms you don't even understand" was kind of nasty. Maybe I'm overly sensitive. I could accept that.
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#56 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:09 PM

Nasty is smashing someone's face in with a brick. Two dorks who don't much care for each other heatedly arguing about dino-warriors in a fantasy book is a breath of fresh air. Even if there's a little sniping thrown in. It's people arguing passionately about books. You ain't gonna see that at the mall most days.
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#57 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 03:31 PM

View PostAbberon, on 16 September 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

You're participating in Reductio Ad Absurdam now, and it's just plain silly.


You're using clichéd terms you don't even really understand.


Look it up dude, you were doing it, and don't for a second claim to me that I don't understand something I say.

View PostAbberon, on 16 September 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

You are saying that BECAUSE it seems insurmountable, and that magic and KCCM so devastatingly out-match the BH that we should not have battles with foot soldiers, marines et al. at all. Then you wouldn't have battle sequences in the book. Instead you'd have tactical sky keep attacks that decimate the Malazan armies. Wow, HOW BORING.


Wait...hold on. I thought I said that I didn't like the sky keeps and the KCCM didn't I? Isn't that what this thread was about? You'd THINK that my statement would lead you to believe that I'd prefer the KCCM, sky keeps and apocalyptic sorcery be absent instead, and NOT the Bonehunters. Somehow, however, your special logic got that twisted up.


Hmmm, perhaps it was THIS STATEMENT "but it starts to feel like there's no point in having armies in the first place when they're so easily mangled by magic, dragons, or dino-soldiers" Huh...seems to me the subject of THAT sentence is that the BH shouldn't exist to fight such great odds...care to try again Aberration?

View PostAbberon, on 16 September 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

As to the KCCM represented in MOI. They were two (IIRC)...and they faced off against....what (how many in the caravan?) like 6 people tops? Most of which were NOT trained soldiers, and even the ones who COULD fight weren't elite or anything ans none of them had magic (IIRC).


Umm...I'm not sure what copy you read. Mine had the KCCM present throughout the entire book. I seem to recall Paran, Onearm and the Bridgeburners (elite infantry with magic and munitions at their disposal) running mad scared from the KCCM and getting absolutely decimated in Coral.


Yeah your copy has them running "mad scared" does it? Hmmm, not mine. In mine they are disturbed by it and daunted by it, but the Bridgeburners DON'T DO mad scared (<---also, is this some sort of street thug slang you use?) They face up to challenges even if it means their death. See again we come up against your inability to understand what Erikson set out to do with his story.

View PostAbberon, on 16 September 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 September 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

Saying that the Bonheunters are irrelevant because of the type of enemy they face is flat out ridiculous. Tell that to the Roman Empire when they challenged the Vercingetorix and his forces in Gaul, or when Ghengis Khan's Mongol hordes took on the Islamic state armies ten times their size during the crusades, if the greatest army to ever walk the planet could organize themselves and use sheer tactical genius against a bigger more powerful enemy and win, then the BH can take on the KCCM or KCNR. It's as simple as that.


You're just the king of logical fallacy aren't you? Caesar vs the Gauls, or the Mongols vs Kwharizmi, would be like the Army of the Apocalypes vs Chain of Dogs, or Pannion Domin vs Capustan. It's an epic Alamo-esque sort of thing. Bonehunters vs KCNR on the other hand, is more like Iraqi Republic Guard vs US Army supported by US Airforce. Get back to me if you can understand the difference.


No you completely missed my point (I fully expected you to do that, don't worry). My point wasn't to compare, but to say that massive odds are NEVER a reason to count out a force altogether. Just because the US (supported by the Air force) would have a huge tactical advantage DOESN'T MEAN that you could count the Republic Guard out of the equation altogether, it makes the job significantly tougher sure, but never impossible with the right commander in place, and the right soldiers. So my mentioning of those earth historical armies WAS NOT (pay attention here, this was my point) to compare, but rather to show that even against great odds a smaller force or a less brutal force CAN succeed in the right circumstances. so if you'd actually READ my comment as it was meant to be interpreted, I wasn't comparing, but suggesting that just because the sides are outmatched doesn't mean you can count out the little guy. I realize I just repeated myself there, but I thought a little help might be needed for your getting of it. Get back to ME when you can read and interpret posts properly, okay?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 September 2011 - 03:36 PM

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#58 User is offline   sappers rule 

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 05:24 PM

Just to say i liked the kccm I felt they made the books a lot more interesting and gave a different light on one of the oldest species/aliens in the book plus if u dont like them just think of them as ETs (are they aliens are not?) and that is why they look so strange.


plus there have been many situations where s smaller force has crushed a much larger force, the Romans conquering Britain defeat a force 10 times the size of them

also I remember reading where a bunch of peasants with pitchforks(scary weapons) defeated an army of knights and infantry so this proves that a smaller weaker force can win


also in the book the bonehunters use tactics and highly disciplined troops to draw with them while the kccm had advanced weapons and 100 to one odds.

so on to a lighter side i feel everyone is not being adventurous enough we should fuse tiam, jaghut, KCCM, and Tebouric (whatever Karsa was) and a pinch of hound now that would be awesome.
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#59 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 06:21 PM

i was thinking about this the other day, and the bonehunters meeting with the nah'ruk basically saved the entire world.

the bonehunters march into the wastelands, the last bastion of the kccm, whom the kcnr have been systematically hunting down and annihilating. one rooted remains. travelling with the bonehunters are stormy and gesler, and gu'rull steals them away to lead the kccm army. that's the first important development.

the battle between the nah'ruk and the bonehunters is the second. they whittled the nah'ruk's numbers down enough that the ground battle between the che'malle and the nah'ruk went in the che'malle's favour (helped by stormy and gesler's knowledge of battle). obviously nobody could have seen icarium coming, but sinn and grub, also brought to the show by the bonehunters, seal the deal.


Spoiler


edit: thanks for the heads up dolmen

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 18 September 2011 - 08:08 PM

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#60 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 07:36 PM

might wanna spoiler some of that sin seeing as this is a DoD thread but yeah, i agree. The KCCM winning their battle against the KCNR nudged things just right...

The KCCM are odd to me. What they are to the nahruk is much like what the imass are to the humans. And yet you get exceptions like gurull...deus ex machina of note. i wonder why all kccm are not jan or shigal class. Surely the matrons could manage it? Power balance seems irrelevant. Perhaps too much perfection spoils the broth but 3 shigal felt arbitrary. Five or ten would be just as equal a risk as theyd check each other constantly.

Now bonehunters vs KCNR was not such a mismash. The KCCM in MOI were dead, explained to be slower because of it yet quick enough to slice treach up good. But let us remember 3 seguleh humans chopped quite a few of these to pieces. Best swordsmen or not that was quite a feat. Im certain the bonehunters had just enough tide breakers in their army to effect similar havok to the nahruk. who are slower and i felt far clumsier than their nimbler cousins. It was a lion army vs a smaller wolf pack army.
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