[LordofTheFallen]

Also, how was Fener able to manifest and be summoned, and somehow killed from a blow to his alter, if he had been pulled from his realm and stripped of his godhood? He was literally a mortal again, and no mention of him replacing Trake again was given.

[Migol]

Gesler and Stormy (2 99% ascendants who had been worshippers in the Fener Cult) summoned him while in a berserk frenzy.

[LordofTheFallen]

So your saying that those two people were able to simply pluck him from wherever he had been hiding, make him 100x larger, and make him a god again so that his blood could mortalize their armies and make them easier to kill once he was somehow killed from another continent via his alter, which should have been useless seeing how he wasn't a god anymore. And they were able to do this while being literally a few hundred feet away from the source of the FA's power despite the fact that Fener wasn't even close to being an elder and therefore shouldn't have been able to materealize.
That seems like one hell of a long stretch to me...

[Abyss]

LordofTheFallen, on 07 July 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

So your saying that those two people were able to simply pluck him from wherever he had been hiding...

Nope. Gesler and Stormy were hard core Punisher Pig worshippers in the midst of fighting a battle, a war, that the Swine of Swords himself was waiting for as of RG.

When the battle at the Spire was truly full blown, Battle Bacon manifested above it... Stormy and Gesler didn't summon him, they were just the link he needed to come into his aspect over that place.

When, over in Darujhistan, Karsa slashed his last remaining altar in half, the Sausage of Slaughter, considerably decreased in power since events in MoI/DG, 'died', and in dying bled all over the battlefield. His blood still having some residue of godsauce, it returned life to the undead (not dead) on the battlefield - basically those beings whose bodies were being kept in motion by their souls and sorcery had their bodies rejuvenated. Because that's what godsauce does.

And before anyone raises it, Hetan wasn't fully dead - Badalle delayed her soul back in DoD.

[D'rek]

Besides, it's not like Fener had to still be a "god" for his death to have power. He was still an enormously powerful Ascendant in his own personal right without the added power of his religion. The blood of a regular, un-worshipped dragon can make you eleint - I have no problem believing the blood of an eons-old Ascendant who became the dominant God of War, suppressing the other gods of War by his very existance and ascension, could achieve what it did in TCG.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Also, Fener didn't magically grow in size,that was his true form. In RG The Errant was worried that once Fener lost control people woulf notice a giant boar reaching to the sky.

And apparently back in the days Gesler was this close to be Fener's Mortal Sword.

[LordofTheFallen]

That still doesn't explain how this "dead" god, who wasn't an elder, was able to materialize right next to the spar, where the FA's warren was dominant. He had limited power due to not having anymore temples in his name or worshippers (for the most part) and yet he was able to appear inside an elder warren that was holding all others at bay, in his full form, at the exact time that Karsa (who he couldn't sense due to the otataral in his skin) decided to break the alter. Either he is powerfull enough to contest all the elders in a severely weakened state and scry someone shrouded in otataral on another continent or something isn't right.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think you misunderstood what Fener's fall meant. He didn't die,he didn't lose power, he was cut from his realm and dragged in the mortal world. This had two repercussions. He was vulnerable by mundane means and he couldn't answer his followers' prayers and thus new gods of war were needed.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 08 July 2011 - 07:05 PM

[LordofTheFallen]

So this god who isn't a god anymore who is still a god has the power to run around as his 100 foot tall self, and he doesn't?
Also, if destroying all his alters was enough to kill him, you'd think destroying all but one would leave him weakened considerably.

[amphibian]

LordofTheFallen, on 11 July 2011 - 01:18 AM, said:

So this god who isn't a god anymore who is still a god has the power to run around as his 100 foot tall self, and he doesn't?
Also, if destroying all his alters was enough to kill him, you'd think destroying all but one would leave him weakened considerably.

You seem fixated on Fener's death to a point that's unhealthy. We can explain that Fener did run around as a gigantimundo pig for a while - as in when he was dragged screaming into the world by Heboric. Then he went and hid in Lether to avoid anyone simultaneously powerful enough and motivated enough to kill him; in Lether, there's some powerful beings, but nobody was directly in conflict with him there and thus he wasn't under threat of being killed before a place of his time and choosing. Being 1000 feet tall drastically shortens the list of available hiding places. He was physically proximate to the events that took place in the final book, had two of his preeminent remaining worshippers provide him a convenient link in the midst of battle and chose to make his death mean something in the grand scheme of the games between gods and mortals.

Weakened doesn't mean dead or incapable of acting. Fener was still enormously powerful as an ascendant and the former primary God of War when he died.

[worry]

He could definitely be 100 feet tall if he wanted, but he would be a magnet to every power-hungry ascendant in the world when he did it., and that wouldn't have been a life worth fighting for or a death worth savoring, in his opinion at the time. He was essentially a god who was at the end of his life, taking the long view of the past present and future, and atoning for his sins. And destroying the alter wasn't the main factor in his death...it was used as a direct line, like a wormhole, for Karsa's sword which literally spanned the distance to strike a fully manifested, deliberately self-sacrificing Fener.

[Bonecaster]

Fener was aspected to War. What was happening in the last two books might - considering it was about the fate of Kaminsod, and the world - be considered the ultimate war, and the battles are huge. It's not too much of a stretch to think that a being who feeds off of war would be empowered by all that. No, he couldn't give that power to others the way he was able to before he was dragged into the world, but he was still getting power. It was sufficient power to materialize next to the spar for two reasons: 1) Akhrast Korvalain was strong at the spar, but the spar wasn't IN the warren. The spar wasn't even, afawk, permanently imbued with the warren, as Black Coral was with Kurald Galain. 2) The spar was under fire from Omtose Phellack and Tellan, as well as a bunch of serious fighters of various powers. Even if the Grey Helms were fighting FOR the FA, the Wolves were powering them, so that makes the spar less fully Akhrast Korvalain.

Hey, it's fantasy. It DID happen. Being fantasy, we can justify it.

[LordofTheFallen]

What I'm really getting at is that he can appear in the spot where the FA warren is most powerful despite being weak.

It's more or less agreed that knocking out all but one atler would weaken his power, since he is killed outright when the last one goes down. So how could he show up above the spar, from Lether (since that was apparently where he was hiding) unless he had considerable power. And with that kind of power he wouldn't really need to hide in the first place.

[amphibian]

LordofTheFallen, on 11 July 2011 - 07:59 PM, said:

What I'm really getting at is that he can appear in the spot where the FA warren is most powerful despite being weak.

It's more or less agreed that knocking out all but one atler would weaken his power, since he is killed outright when the last one goes down. So how could he show up above the spar, from Lether (since that was apparently where he was hiding) unless he had considerable power. And with that kind of power he wouldn't really need to hide in the first place.

A few things:

1) The continent is called Lether - they are still on it when they are in the country/region called Kolanse. Fener isn't teleporting across the entire planet to appear on the battlefield.

2) Fener had considerable power innate in him. He couldn't take anyone truly powerful on in a one on one battle and chose to run until his death could accomplish something.

3) The altars are a sign of how much worship/attention he receives. The Fener cults in the Malazan army were nearly eradicated. The Grey Swords were nearly destroyed and shifted allegiances to the Wolves. Itkovian became the Redeemer. Heboric was co-opted by Treach and later died. Fener passed from the religious pantheon at the same time he was dragged into the world by Heboric.

4) The altar's breaking gives Karsa's sword a link to Fener's body in Lether. That chopping of the body is what killed Fener, not the altar's breaking specifically.

[Gatekeeper]

I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of telling the dude what to worry about, but it does seem kind of weird you picked the Fener thing to say "my suspension on disbelief just can't handle that!" hahaha...

[LordofTheFallen]

I didn't know about the link with Karsa's sword, I just thought it was directly a result of all the alters breaking.

[Sinisdar Toste]

amphibian, on 11 July 2011 - 10:01 PM, said:

2) Fener had considerable power innate in him. He couldn't take anyone truly powerful on in a one on one battle and chose to run until his death could accomplish something.

indeed. fener lost much of his power, it's true, but that power was power he used to influence the world from an unassailable position. like amph says, he still held godly power within him - massive amounts of it i'd think, since he's able to take a form as large as a skyscraper - but unveiling it prematurely would be pointless - he'd just force bugg to teleport him into the ocean.

[worry]

Or teleport the ocean into him!

[LordofTheFallen]

At this point we are very off topic, but Bugg is the kind old guy we know, yet from what we know of the malazan's veiwpoint of Mael, he is cruel and heartless.
He traps the crimson gaurdsmen (and many others) simply because they trespassed on his territory, he used to create floods on a whim (the exchange with him and Gothos in MoI I think.) and he generally is a real dick to his worshippers, either ignouring them conpletely or screwing them over.

Yet in his role of Bugg he is a sweet, if infinitly powerful, old man. What gives?

[worry]

He retired.