[worry]

She has long been one of my favorite characters in the series, and to be honest, I thought she would be the crux of a lot of the mysteries. She's an EG, an undead twin to T'iam who is both lover and daughter to her, she claims to be the Elder with the most faces, she's the first Bonecaster and set up the ritual of Tellann, and she claimed to steal fire and bring it to humans or Imass or someone at least, and she walked among humans with a weird basket around her head.

Now I don't believe every word she says, for obvious reasons, but here origins and goals have always seemed like one of the deeper sets of mysteries in the series. And so her end is probably the one thread that is a sour note, or at least something I can't wrap my thoughts around.

Perhaps she was an especially jealous god. We know there's another goddess who also happens to be Imass that claims to have stolen fire, and that's Apsal'ara. Perhaps OE has adopted her story in her absence. Or while Apsal'ara stole fire to bring to people, OE stole Tellann to use for herself.

And her DoD claims as well. Those gods aren't exactly around to contradict her either. I think perhaps of all the gods she might have been barren, and therefore stole the stories of every other mother goddess to compensate. A Hand that Rocks the Cradle situation. She does comment that the Imass had always been "slayers of children", and of course she then punishes them for it.

When she and Torrent meet Tel and Curdle, she claims to be trying to save mortal lives, and using the Imass to do so. I am beginning to think what she is talking about here is that the Imass would have genocided the humans and not the other way around, if OE hadn't intervened. At least, from her perspective. But if her ultimate goal is Tool, then that could explain why she keeps them around instead of destroying them outright.

Anyway, I'm still left pretty flummoxed by her, and would love to hear most everybody else's thoughts about her.

[Iamme]

I don't think OE lied about anything. She was daughter of Ti'am by the way (and lover). She wasn't truly Imass either.

[worry]

Please elaborate on your first comment.

[Midnight]

I also find her to be a most perplexing character (same with Tool in both DoD and TCG) and I found her ending a little disappointing.

In rereading the book I noticed that Mael says to K'rul something along the lines of "she tries again but the one she has chosen..."

Perhaps she really is a mother-earth type elder goddess who is constantly trying to birth a species she thinks is good. We know she tried with the Imass and the Eres'al.
Maybe she was trying again and that's why she wanted Tool as a mate...though admittedly being undead does seem to get in the way of procreation

On a side note, i wondered if her "killers of children" comment referred to the Imass supplanting the Eres.

[Siergiej]

I expected a lot more from her in the final chapter of Malazan Book. She was built up as an immensely powerful Elder Goddes, and pretty old one even as for them. And she kind of created the "T'lan" part of Imass. Willingly joined the Imass in their ritual. That's all interesting stuff and one can expect her to have some deeper goals. And there she is, iritating old bitch, who kidnaps the children of a guy she fell in love with, and end ups served well by an dying teenager with broken legs. Actually, both Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God could have done without Olar Ethil. The only thing I'd then miss would be two nice dialogues (the Burn thing from DoD, and her meeting with Toc in tCG).

[Hoods Breath]

I would have have liked to know more about her as well... but that could be said for most of the characters in this series.

She seemed like a BS artist to me. She claimed to be the oldest, the mother of all, made out with Rake, won an Olympic medal, etc.,etc., I hope we eventually get more of her backstory to find out how much truth was in her claims.
She had the arrogance of one who has tremendous power but I felt that her actual power was probably diminished from what it once was.

I thought she manipulated the Imass into performing the ritual and fighting the Jaghut. She was trying to manipulate them again through Tool before she got punked out by Torrent. I thought she wanted to genocide the humans and Tool rresisted.

When she claimed that the Imass were always slayers of children.. I figured she meant Jaghut children.

A truly flummoxing character.

[JohnO]

I really hated her, but as hoods breath says, she accepted ther itual of tellnan on herself, which I guess lessened her or at least imacted her a hell of a lot. Meaning she had redeeming features and that's eriksons genius: no matter how hateful Anyone may be, there's alway a hang on moment, when you see their side of the story. Apply that to real life and...aw crap

[Sanctume]

Hmm, Tiam's twin sister?

Well, Tiam got blood dranked by kids of MD, so OE is probably scared of them.

I mean, OE is/was in the caliber of power as Draconus, and Rake defeated Draconus, so OE's uber power would seem less than the new kids on the block.

I suppose Elder Gods can just hide forever, but is that the same as those forgotten gods in Brys's mind? Like fading from memory, the very death of gods.

So it would be safe to assume that OE found a way to prolong her identity/existence by making T'lan Imass--at least for another 300,000 years.
But it seems like the shelf life of undead is around 300k years since rotted flesh eventually falls away despite the turn to dust and reform action--there's wear and tear with that undead form.

What I don't get is how come these Elder Gods don't have the soul switching skills? Sure OE turned into human from Fener's rain blood--and got eye plinked with a flint arrow. Why die from that? I guess it's in the rule of nature of elder gods.

I also don't quite get the connection with the Eres / Eres'al. I thought Eresal is that time travelling seducer?

[worry]

You know what's interesting about that TI stuff is that they are said to have outlived their gods, yet there is actually an Elder God right there among them. I don't know if she was ever worshiped by them or she was always "undercover" so to speak, but it's a neat twist.

[Mason of Death]

For those who think Torrent's takedown of OE was underdone, remember that he shot her with one of Tool's arrows. These things destroy wards, blow heads apart, and never miss. And since OE had just gottne her new body, she was alive, and therefore killable.

And about her power level, isn't there a scene in DoD (I think it's the one when she runs into Silchas and Rudd) where someone says that because she joined the Ritual, she lost a lot of her power, or stagnated like the Errant, cause she couldn't move on, something like that. It's the old, proud power getting smacked down by the new guys, a point SE has made repeatedly since HoC. I actually wasn't all that surprsing to me. The moment OE started on her megalomanical monologue, I though "Here we go again."

[Bonecaster]

I thought it very strange that she seemed subservient to Silverfox. Was it just an act? That seems uncharacteristic for her. Did Erikson rethink the character?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Bonecaster, on 28 May 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

I thought it very strange that she seemed subservient to Silverfox. Was it just an act? That seems uncharacteristic for her. Did Erikson rethink the character?

perhaps, but when i thought on her actions in MoI when we meet her again in tCG, i wondered if maybe she just wanted to get the t'lan monkey off her back. it had kept her locked into one aspect for 300,000 years, i imagine she wanted some of her old powers back. seems like that's what she wanted in tCG (aside from Tools babies)

[foolio]

worrywort said

Quote

Those gods aren't exactly around to contradict her either. I think perhaps of all the gods she might have been barren, and therefore stole the stories of every other mother goddess to compensate.

I love this idea. Makes sense to me.




I was completely puzzled by OE's motivation. Just my opinion but it seemed like her being in love with tool was somewhat of a cop out to wrap up her story. Just didnt feel right or seem to explain all of her motivations.

[Sudden Benjamin]

<sub>"<sup>When she and Torrent meet Tel and Curdle, she claims to be trying to save mortal lives, and using the Imass to do so. I am beginning to think what she is talking about here is that the Imass would have genocided the humans and not the other way around, if OE hadn't intervened. At least, from her perspective. But if her ultimate goal is Tool, then that could explain why she keeps them around instead of destroying them outright. "


I disagree with the above (havent figured out the whole quote thing, bear with me, I'm a forum noob)
Erikson is an Anthropologist, I've done a bit of study that way myself ( in a half-hearted Bachelor of Arts kinda way), he seems to have copied our species history pretty much perfectly
The Imass are obviously a take on Neanderthal Man (short, stocky, bridge-brow stone age technology etc)
The Current theory on the Neanderthalls is that they were the first wave of 'humans' out of africa during the ice age, because of the shift away from the equater they became based on a more cold-adapted form and eventually became a seperate species entirely.
once the ice age (or Jaghut Ritual) started to thaw out Modern Humans started migrating north out Africa and geonocided the Neanderthalls/remaining Imass with better stone tech and sheer numbers. i think Erikson has more or less covered that.

I rather like the idea of a fantasy novel with the mechanics of evolution

only real difference is that Neanderthals didnt also have to contend with giant lizards with swords for arms but hey, lets not get too technical here

I think Olar Ethil has just gone batshit insane, so much that she believes all the BS she's talking about
especially since she claims to have birthed the E'res, which is previous to Imass, and also a hellava lot more powerful than Olar (time travel and shiiit)
not to mention being a twin to Tiam, she's an Ancient, I'll give her that, but no one freaks out when she takes her undead dragon form, whereas just a mention of Tiam rocking up send shivers down the spine of your average ascendant

not to mention the whole Tiam/Korabas eternal struggle/balance of power, kinda messes it up if you have TWO Tiams, or is there an undead Otatoral dragon chilling underground somewhere?

or maybe i just dont want to believe her because i just don't like her. could be.</sup></sub>

[Shansteeth]

Perhaps it was the point, but Olar Ethil's struggle seems...frivilous.

The entire series is filled with a whole F the Gods sort of vibe, and plenty of reasons are given, among that the Gods are not some infalliable, all-powerful beings, but they can be just as contemplable in behaviour, just as selfish in desires, and all in all just as self-involved, self-centered, arrogant pricks as any human being could hope to be.


Perhaps this incredibly frivilous reason for Olar's struggle(She wants Tool to be her boyfriend) is sort of that final nail in the coffin of why we should not be in awe of the "Gods".

[Tyrant]

Olar Ethil is not Tiam's twin, she is her daughter.
"Tiam's daughter did not outlive her mother – this thing has embraced the Ritual of Telann – she is less than she once was." (DoD)

I think you're getting confused over this passage: "When I veer, I am as an undead twin to Tiam, who spawned all dragons" - (MoI)
As I understand this line, she doesn't claim to be Tiam's twin 'sister', she simply implies that in her undead Eleint form, she is just as large/fearsome as Tiam - she mirrors her just as twins mirror each other, in short, she's boasting. As of TCG we see that Tiam manifests through the convergence of many Eleint into one mother-of-all dragons and so she would actually probably dwarf Olar Ethil. Clearly, Olar Ethil likes to boast.

We've had it from the mouth of an Elder God that Olar Ethil is Tiam's daughter, yet it's also well established that she is the First Bonecaster and mother to the T'lan Imass. So what happened, if she was birthed as an Eleint, did she ascend to Elder God status and decide to take mortal form as an Imass, a race of her own making, and them bind them all, including herself, to the Ritual of Tellann? This seems to be the only explanation that makes any sense, and even then there are holes...

Also a point on Tiam, if she can only manifest through the merging of her children, in what form did she exist previously in order to spawn all of these other dragons? Or is that simply how she manifests in the mortal realm, existing different in her own realm? (Starvald Demelain?)

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 04 July 2011 - 10:18 PM

[Bonecaster]

She was also the first Soletaken.

Quote

'Olar Ethil,' Ay Estos said. 'First among the Bonecasters. Eleint, the First Soletaken.

Hey, here's a thought...

Quote

'From my ancient blood ran every stream of Soletaken and D'ivers.'

Maybe the reason the T'lan Imass slaughtered the human First Empire after they (the humans) unleashed the Beast Ritual is that they stole Olar Ethil's blood. Or something that was, basically, the same thing - a theft from their greatest Bonecaster. (Maybe this has been discussed somewhere.)

[tiam]

Probably not a theft of Bonecaster blood but but the FE clearly came across the ritual somehow. The Imass simply cleaned it up. I think its Onracks POV were he laments having to kill them all to save them from the madness of Soletaken etc.

As for Olar Ethil- we dont know if if her soletaken form was the same size as Tiams original form. There been alot of specualtion about Tiams original form. We see in TCG that her form was of a multiheaded dragon but this is likely because of the surplus in eleint that contribute. Her original form may have been the samne size as Olar as shes frequently described as dwarfing even Rakes wingspan and Rake dwarfs Silanah. So if she was the First Soletaken she was the first to drink Tiams blood explaining the lover aspect of the analogy in DOD. As for the daughter comment we dont know enough

[LordofTheFallen]

I think her and Kallor would make a great couple. They both try to wow everyone they are with about their "grand legacies and empires" They are both extremely arrogant and have their own asses ruotinely handed to them. And they both boast of their awful power/fighting skills yet back down from any and all fights. I think the only thing olar Ethil did that can give her cred was defy Hood's omtose phellack ritual at the spar. And Kallor fought two people in as long as we knew him. Whiskeyjack, who would have killed him if his leg hadn't given, and Traveller in Jacuruku who nearly killed him outright, forcing him to flee.

[Bonecaster]

Well, I hate to defend Kallor , but he did prove Spinnock's superior, even if it took quite a while to do so. But Dassem running him through was one of my favorite moments of all!

This post has been edited by Bonecaster: 05 July 2011 - 02:42 AM