[nacht]

Adeafone delat, on 28 April 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

I am not a frequent poster nor do i have some innate knowledge just a propensity to obsessively read and retread this series. I have read all previous posts and felt the need to add my 2+ cents. 1. This story has been told from the perspective of the crippled god and with knowledge that he possessed. Our asking SE anything will just leave us unfulfilled bc we have everything we are going to get from him in regards to this story. It's wildly unfair and will lead the uber fans to conjecture but that's the point, the sneaky beaver. 2. The parans are related to if not the off spring of Kellanved or Dancer, I think Kel. Now I understand that Kel is old, but he and dancer and surly ran smileys, which undoubtedly served alcohol. Paran family were wine merchants, which is fancy "noble speak" for sellers of alcohol or barkeeps. When Ganoes is asked about his stationing in the army in Gotm, he is asked why he was confident that he would get a favorable stationing by lorn. He remarks that he just knew it would work out. Despite one culling of nobles already. Tavore says she is a child of the emperor. She has access to fight known high fists in fake battles and consistently wins. How the hell could any noble get access to military geniuses? Please elaborate if you have a good reason. Also any time Ganoes speaks with ST or Dancer, there is a sense of familiarity that only comes from knowing one of them before the ascension. Granted it was the prologue for Gotm but we meet whiskey jack, surly just hanging out at Ganoes' house, for lack of better term. He also has information about dassem at y'ghatan, which only a few people in the entire empire could possess. I find it highly unlikely that the house paran would just randomly be that prominent, that would be some serious juice.
I have retread the series with this in mind and it looks to be plausible, we will never find out obviously but it could work. It explains tavore having knowledge from ST, blood is thicker than otataral! And even felisin has read heboric's unpublished works about surly's coup. Yea I know I'm reaching but I think SE wants it.

Edit for clarity in spacing.

Quote

When Ganoes is asked about his stationing in the army in Gotm, he is asked why he was confident that he would get a favorable stationing by lorn. He remarks that he just knew it would work out. Despite one culling of nobles already.

I dont think the culling happened already. I actually think Paran's response plus Lorn questioning Aragan about the noble's influence is what prompted the culling (admittedly this is only hinted). Paran actually goes home and meets his sisters before joining Lorn as an assistant.

Quote

Granted it was the prologue for Gotm but we meet whiskey jack, surly just hanging out at Ganoes' house, for lack of better term.

They were hanging out at Mocks hold (which is not Ganoes house). Ganoes father came there to negotiate a business license.

This post has been edited by nacht: 02 May 2013 - 12:17 AM

[the broken]

Kanubis, on 29 April 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I don't think I quite buy it, but it's nice to see a new theory come up. I don't think I could quite buy the genuine family tie, but the idea that under some guise Kel/Dancer got involved with house Paran early on and primed the kids to a certain degree (the two oldest of whom thus grew up utterly atypical for merchant's children.) It would also go some way to explaining why Tavore was able to acquire a ludicrously badass Talon to look after Felisin. Tavore and Paran were both ultimately instrumental to ST/Cot's very long term plans, and those crafty buggers do like to plan ahead...

Still not convinced though, but it was a nice thought to read

Doubt it. Sorry killed Paran in book 1, so it's unlikely he was all that special to them to begin with.

As for Tavore, she was nobleborn. As shown in HOC, Cotillion had no idea the Talons still existed, they offered their services to the nobleborns to help them survive Laseen's culls after the claw shattered them. That's how Korbolo Dom ended up with Talons on his staff.

[Melnibonean Wanderer]

Been reading the thread. So Tavore's true motive in attacking Rhulad's empire was to destroy Kaminsod's burgeoning power base? I take it the Bonehunters' encounter with that Tiste Edur ship (where Quick Ben used illusion to trick the Edur) is what pushed Tavore into taking a detour into Rhulad's empire. This makes some sense: without a strong power base, it would be easier to convince Kaminsod to return home. Otherwise, he could have just as easily went back to Rhulad's empire after he was freed from the Forkrul Assail.

[The Hust Legion]

reading this thread . i wonder how much of an impact rake had on the "grand plan" to free the crippled god. cause i think envy says at the end Of TtH. that his leaving is the beginning of the end. so surely a person like rake would be aware of the implications his death would bring. i mean it appears to be that he is a massive player. setting up the OD chaining, taking part in the CG chaining. maybe rake handled the liosan side of things cause i mean they are just as bad as the FA, it was said had the shake and the andii lost and kharkanas taken that the liosan would go on a genocidal run through the warrens. so rake handled that side whilst ST handled the assail. it just seems to me that not even kruppe AND quick ben formulate such a huge plan on their own. not that ST isn't one clever bastard its just too much for one person. also i think tavore wasn't really told what to do by ST as such, but contact with details of the overall plan must have been made, i think she was given this info and then her decision what to do with it. i think tavore was the one to free the crippled god simply cause she wouldn't stop till it was done regardless of what happened. overall i think rake and ST worked together a little. rake kinda passed on his job as the planner to ST. i think its hinted at but I'm not sure. also the errant freeing the OD again i think rakes death speeded that up. with the arrival of dracaenas and the death of the person who originally was behind the chaining of the OD, he must have thought it was time. i also think that the errant thought with rake gone there was no one really to stand in the way of the elder gods plans fully any more. ( he seems to have a pretty low opinion of mortals and the kiddy gods) so timing wise releasing the OD dragon made sense. i think the errant said himself " theres no one around to match rakes insane obsessions anymore" before being punched by killy. GO KILLY! . also on a side note shows how rake has been a thorn in the elder gods side i guess since forever

This post has been edited by The Hust Legion: 31 December 2014 - 05:26 PM

[worry]

Rake and ST are IMO in cahoots more deeply than is shown. I personally think the conversation between Silchas and Tulas Shorn hints at this via implication when they discuss the Throne of Shadow (ie Rake "approves" of ST, above anyone else who's ever tried for the throne), and the sword ST gives Silchas is likely from Rake. Their partnership may have even started as far back as the last chaining, pre-ascension for Kel and Dancer.

P.S. please avoid mentioning what FoD may or may not show in the TCG forum.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

So with this theory, and this is just cuz I wanna hear your take on it, explain Rake killing the hounds in GotM... GotMism?

[worry]

Uhhhhhhhh. I re-read TCG way after a reread of the rest of the series and didn't even think of that scene. I dunno how it fits except that going into Dragnipur isn't the same as dying in other ways and also the Hounds aren't exactly beholden to ST or even necessarily partners. Theory is something closer to a hunch informed largely by events in TCG specifically and I have yet to retrofit it. And I say "partnership" loosely in terms of the chaining. Let's say Rake recognizes a mutual horror at the chaining shared with the humans. Maybe Hood is the one who invited them in the first place via Dassem, but it's gotta be the first time Kel and Rake meet, right? I dunno, I just think the stirrings of the plan we see come to fruition in TCG had its nascence at this chaining.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

No I like your theory, but I never forget, nor do I forgive, Rake killing those dogs.

worry, on 31 December 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

Uhhhhhhhh. I re-read TCG way after a reread of the rest of the series and didn't even think of that scene. I dunno how it fits except that going into Dragnipur isn't the same as dying in other ways and also the Hounds aren't exactly beholden to ST or even necessarily partners. Theory is something closer to a hunch informed largely by events in TCG specifically and I have yet to retrofit it. And I say "partnership" loosely in terms of the chaining. Let's say Rake recognizes a mutual horror at the chaining shared with the humans. Maybe Hood is the one who invited them in the first place via Dassem, but it's gotta be the first time Kel and Rake meet, right? I dunno, I just think the stirrings of the plan we see come to fruition in TCG had its nascence at this chaining.

The Dassem/Hood thing always gets me. The way Hood is portrayed up to tCG is interesting because he doesn't seem like he would abuse one of his followers in such a way, just to chain Kaminsod. I mean, I understand how powerful the pieces of the Crippled God are, but it just seems out of character, unless Hood had changed since then. The gathering of players at those chainings is curious. I'd like to see a list of the known gods and ascendants present. If I get some time, maybe I'll peruse the books and gather that together.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 31 December 2014 - 02:16 PM

[The Hust Legion]

those hounds. left a gap that could never be filled. but i guess relationships between ascendants have always been, argh ummm strained like that. rake and brood were meant to be kinda best buds, but even then they threatened each other seriously a few times. when rake killed the hounds i believed he threatened to assail the house of shadow. even if they were in cahoots then such a threat between ascendants especially from rake isn't so surprising. and with regards to hood, gods are cruel sons of bitches i believe thats been highlighted a couple times throughout the series. as for those present I'm pretty sure few jaghut were there gethol ( hoods herald in MoI gothos surely must have been i assume anyway definitely andii sole taken and like 40 andii, hood rake silanah , brood?

[Andorion]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 December 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

No I like your theory, but I never forget, nor do I forgive, Rake killing those dogs.

worry, on 31 December 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

Uhhhhhhhh. I re-read TCG way after a reread of the rest of the series and didn't even think of that scene. I dunno how it fits except that going into Dragnipur isn't the same as dying in other ways and also the Hounds aren't exactly beholden to ST or even necessarily partners. Theory is something closer to a hunch informed largely by events in TCG specifically and I have yet to retrofit it. And I say "partnership" loosely in terms of the chaining. Let's say Rake recognizes a mutual horror at the chaining shared with the humans. Maybe Hood is the one who invited them in the first place via Dassem, but it's gotta be the first time Kel and Rake meet, right? I dunno, I just think the stirrings of the plan we see come to fruition in TCG had its nascence at this chaining.

The Dassem/Hood thing always gets me. The way Hood is portrayed up to tCG is interesting because he doesn't seem like he would abuse one of his followers in such a way, just to chain Kaminsod. I mean, I understand how powerful the pieces of the Crippled God are, but it just seems out of character, unless Hood had changed since then. The gathering of players at those chainings is curious. I'd like to see a list of the known gods and ascendants present. If I get some time, maybe I'll peruse the books and gather that together.

Hood does not get a lot of screen time until the last three books of MbotF. You might want to consider that in DoD and TCG when Hood is kicking FA ass he is no longer aspected to Death.After all being an established God in a pantheon his actions were probably never truly independent.

[Andorion]

The Hust Legion, on 31 December 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

those hounds. left a gap that could never be filled. but i guess relationships between ascendants have always been, argh ummm strained like that. rake and brood were meant to be kinda best buds, but even then they threatened each other seriously a few times. when rake killed the hounds i believed he threatened to assail the house of shadow. even if they were in cahoots then such a threat between ascendants especially from rake isn't so surprising. and with regards to hood, gods are cruel sons of bitches i believe thats been highlighted a couple times throughout the series. as for those present I'm pretty sure few jaghut were there gethol ( hoods herald in MoI gothos surely must have been i assume anyway definitely andii sole taken and like 40 andii, hood rake silanah , brood?

To me Rake's killing the Hounds always seemed like a statement as in "Thus far and no further" He was clearly declaring to ST that he would take no shit and if needed he could become an antagonist. The difference between Brood and ST is that Rake had a long associataion with Brood and probably had something as close to a friendship as is possible to have for somebody like Rake, while ST was an ally of opportunity.

[MagicalDinos]

So uuuhh long time reader (well, ~6 months), first time poster (my name is how I help place the KCCM in my imagination). Just finished TCG a week ago and have been avidly reading this subforum since, thought I would contribute to this thread since I've been thinking a bit about this topic myself, and have really enjoyed reading other peoples' ideas and thoughts about the series.

I feel like the question could be answered more completely if we were given a better idea of the timeline of Shadowthrone's "reaching out" to tCG. We're given those fragments of conversations in the book TCG, but not exaclty when they took place, ya know? I guess I'm a bit cynical, but it's hard for me to imagine the logic of ST reaching out to Kaminsod, explaining his plan, getting Kaminsod's agreement/cooperation... and then tCG just goes buckwild on two separate continents with two bloody invasions by proxy armies (this especially applies to the Pannion Domin). That would be indicative of an unreliable negotiating partner, at best. In fact, I don't think the tCG's partnership was really fully sealed until sometime after the end of RG - he seemed genuinely shocked at Karsa's refusal of the sword, as well as Withal's subsequent dismantling of it. My own guess is that ST and Cot had to drag Kaminsod kicking and screaming (so to speak...) for a time before he finally trusted them (wasn't there a passage somewhere in which he admits to not fully trusting ST at first?). In any event, given this it seems that Shadowthrone's motives, while coinciding with Tavore's in their ultimate goal, don't seem nearly as "pure" in their intent. Which probably shouldn't be surprising.

As for the whole grand narrative arc of the MbotF series, I agree with the sentiment expressed by worry on the 1st page of this thread ("They didn't have to manipulate everything that happened, just take advantage of it"), and by Tyrant on the 2nd page. I think it's folly to think that ST had the actions and events of this diverse multitude of characters - how the events would unfold, the actions and re-actions of all the actors, the paths they would abandon and follow, spanning years, if not decades - mapped out from the beginning like some elaborate, pantheon-bridging Rube Goldberg machine (the same goes for Tavore as well). While the end goal was probably always there, and ST and Cot indeed were the "center of the web", it seems more likely the paths towards achieving their goals were constantly shifting and branching off, and that there were times (albeit few) when they were more re-active than tune-player - and again, the same goes for Tavore. There were probably times when people were blind to what the other actors were doing, and devised new courses of action upon discovering new information. This would all fall under what Hood called " wondrous conflagration[s] of circumstance and character", as quoted in Tyrant's post.

My final point is a bit weak, but Erickson has stated in interviews that one of his favorite author's is Umberto Eco - a guy whose two most well known books are about the futility of trying to find grand systemic patterns from the events of life, as well as the futility/arbitrary nature of interpreting texts. I pick up hints of that mentality in some of Fiddler's internal dialogue towards the end of TCG - about the futility of future historians trying to create some precise narrative and meaning from the as-to-be-written Book of the Fallen. So we'll probably never get the satisfying full-closure we seek - and this is probably by SE's own design.

That felt like a lot to type.

[Melnibonean Wanderer]

I think ST and Cotillion wanted to keep their peers off balance, hence the seemingly haphazard nature of their scheme.

[Felisin Fatter]

Tavore was in libraries for years, I think age 15-18. She studied everything she could find about general history and tactics, the gods, TCG, the Tiste Liosan, Edur, Andii, Ahkrast Korvalain etc. I'm pretty sure ST and/or Cotillion were coaching her and using her research for their own scheming. She also met T 'Amber, some imperial historians (and all of their work) and at some point someone made her a Talon and gave her those contacts. Could be her father, her mother, Cotillion or even ST - or an unknown person. After all the study, they (ST, Cot, Tavore) made a plan together and got her the position of Adjunct to execute it.

At that point, I think the plan was rough, something like: get into the CG's inner circle, get him to cooperate. Get an army or two to the Heart to stop the end of the world at least, and if possible free TCG (Tavore might have pushed this last part of the plan at first). Collect allies along the way. Get rid of elder gods or recruit them whenever opportunity presents itself. Adjust plans as necessary.

[heavymetaltroll]

Felisin Fatter, on 11 January 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Tavore was in libraries for years, I think age 15-18. She studied everything she could find about general history and tactics, the gods, TCG, the Tiste Liosan, Edur, Andii, Ahkrast Korvalain etc. I'm pretty sure ST and/or Cotillion were coaching her and using her research for their own scheming. She also met T 'Amber, some imperial historians (and all of their work) and at some point someone made her a Talon and gave her those contacts. Could be her father, her mother, Cotillion or even ST - or an unknown person. After all the study, they (ST, Cot, Tavore) made a plan together and got her the position of Adjunct to execute it.

At that point, I think the plan was rough, something like: get into the CG's inner circle, get him to cooperate. Get an army or two to the Heart to stop the end of the world at least, and if possible free TCG (Tavore might have pushed this last part of the plan at first). Collect allies along the way. Get rid of elder gods or recruit them whenever opportunity presents itself. Adjust plans as necessary.

It does seem rather coincidental that Paran as Lorns agent was taken out right when he was needed by Cottilion, and then Shadowthrone acquiesced so easily to Rakes demand for Cottilion to give up his possession of Sorry. Maybe that was the entire point of the possession in the 1st place? Does anyone else find it strange how Cottilion, the patron god of assassins and as shown in later books to be a total badass, couldn't even kill off one lone mortal? One who would end up playing a major role in some of the major events. Seems a pretty big coincidence.

[rhyspinot]

MagicalDinos, on 04 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

My final point is a bit weak, but Erickson has stated in interviews that one of his favorite author's is Umberto Eco - a guy whose two most well known books are about the futility of trying to find grand systemic patterns from the events of life, as well as the futility/arbitrary nature of interpreting texts. I pick up hints of that mentality in some of Fiddler's internal dialogue towards the end of TCG - about the futility of future historians trying to create some precise narrative and meaning from the as-to-be-written Book of the Fallen. So we'll probably never get the satisfying full-closure we seek - and this is probably by SE's own design.

His stories are also deeply entrenched in the unreliability of the narrator. Every story told from a perspective is tainted by the character and agenda of the storyteller (technically, this is covered by semiotics, which can be thought of as the study of signs, communication, or the nature of how information is passed between sender and receiver, something Eco has written extensively on). In the case of MBotF, the elaborate and far reaching plot, except for the short conversation between Hood and Shurq is never actually revealed by one of the plotters. This is important because the story becomes a story told by those who are involved but not in the know. It's a story by narrators who don't have all the information. You could argue that it's a refutation to the idea of "unwitnessed", as the entire over-arching plot is told not by those who thought up the plan, but solely by witnesses. It also goes a long way towards understanding Fidd's parenthetical comments towards the end of TCG about the nature of written history. To me, the most interesting characters in the series are the ones we know least about, simply because we aren't as subject to their internal monologues. I'm thinking primarily of ST, Rake, Tavore and Quick. We're never sure of their motivations because they are never the narrator.

Not that this has anything to do with the plot! But I think it's an interesting digression.

Oh, and, uh, only my second post, so...hi all.

[Kanese S's]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 December 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

So with this theory, and this is just cuz I wanna hear your take on it, explain Rake killing the hounds in GotM... GotMism?

Rake telling Shadowthrone "back off" and to keep out of his business within the mortal realm. Just because they see eye to eye on some things doesn't mean Rake is okay with Shadow always getting all up in his affairs.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 31 December 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

No I like your theory, but I never forget, nor do I forgive, Rake killing those dogs.

worry, on 31 December 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

Uhhhhhhhh. I re-read TCG way after a reread of the rest of the series and didn't even think of that scene. I dunno how it fits except that going into Dragnipur isn't the same as dying in other ways and also the Hounds aren't exactly beholden to ST or even necessarily partners. Theory is something closer to a hunch informed largely by events in TCG specifically and I have yet to retrofit it. And I say "partnership" loosely in terms of the chaining. Let's say Rake recognizes a mutual horror at the chaining shared with the humans. Maybe Hood is the one who invited them in the first place via Dassem, but it's gotta be the first time Kel and Rake meet, right? I dunno, I just think the stirrings of the plan we see come to fruition in TCG had its nascence at this chaining.

The Dassem/Hood thing always gets me. The way Hood is portrayed up to tCG is interesting because he doesn't seem like he would abuse one of his followers in such a way, just to chain Kaminsod. I mean, I understand how powerful the pieces of the Crippled God are, but it just seems out of character, unless Hood had changed since then. The gathering of players at those chainings is curious. I'd like to see a list of the known gods and ascendants present. If I get some time, maybe I'll peruse the books and gather that together.

That would be an interesting list, indeed.

Also I would agree on that Hood is one of the most well known gods at the start of the series and is so constrained by his aspect. Also, fucking over Dassem might have seemed the less crappy option compared with not chaining CG.

Andorion, on 01 January 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

The Hust Legion, on 31 December 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

those hounds. left a gap that could never be filled. but i guess relationships between ascendants have always been, argh ummm strained like that. rake and brood were meant to be kinda best buds, but even then they threatened each other seriously a few times. when rake killed the hounds i believed he threatened to assail the house of shadow. even if they were in cahoots then such a threat between ascendants especially from rake isn't so surprising. and with regards to hood, gods are cruel sons of bitches i believe thats been highlighted a couple times throughout the series. as for those present I'm pretty sure few jaghut were there gethol ( hoods herald in MoI gothos surely must have been i assume anyway definitely andii sole taken and like 40 andii, hood rake silanah , brood?

To me Rake's killing the Hounds always seemed like a statement as in "Thus far and no further" He was clearly declaring to ST that he would take no shit and if needed he could become an antagonist. The difference between Brood and ST is that Rake had a long associataion with Brood and probably had something as close to a friendship as is possible to have for somebody like Rake, while ST was an ally of opportunity.

Yeah, exactly. Possibly with an element of "stop fucking around."

MagicalDinos, on 04 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

So uuuhh long time reader (well, ~6 months), first time poster (my name is how I help place the KCCM in my imagination). Just finished TCG a week ago and have been avidly reading this subforum since, thought I would contribute to this thread since I've been thinking a bit about this topic myself, and have really enjoyed reading other peoples' ideas and thoughts about the series.

I feel like the question could be answered more completely if we were given a better idea of the timeline of Shadowthrone's "reaching out" to tCG. We're given those fragments of conversations in the book TCG, but not exaclty when they took place, ya know? I guess I'm a bit cynical, but it's hard for me to imagine the logic of ST reaching out to Kaminsod, explaining his plan, getting Kaminsod's agreement/cooperation... and then tCG just goes buckwild on two separate continents with two bloody invasions by proxy armies (this especially applies to the Pannion Domin). That would be indicative of an unreliable negotiating partner, at best. In fact, I don't think the tCG's partnership was really fully sealed until sometime after the end of RG - he seemed genuinely shocked at Karsa's refusal of the sword, as well as Withal's subsequent dismantling of it. My own guess is that ST and Cot had to drag Kaminsod kicking and screaming (so to speak...) for a time before he finally trusted them (wasn't there a passage somewhere in which he admits to not fully trusting ST at first?). In any event, given this it seems that Shadowthrone's motives, while coinciding with Tavore's in their ultimate goal, don't seem nearly as "pure" in their intent. Which probably shouldn't be surprising.

As for the whole grand narrative arc of the MbotF series, I agree with the sentiment expressed by worry on the 1st page of this thread ("They didn't have to manipulate everything that happened, just take advantage of it"), and by Tyrant on the 2nd page. I think it's folly to think that ST had the actions and events of this diverse multitude of characters - how the events would unfold, the actions and re-actions of all the actors, the paths they would abandon and follow, spanning years, if not decades - mapped out from the beginning like some elaborate, pantheon-bridging Rube Goldberg machine (the same goes for Tavore as well). While the end goal was probably always there, and ST and Cot indeed were the "center of the web", it seems more likely the paths towards achieving their goals were constantly shifting and branching off, and that there were times (albeit few) when they were more re-active than tune-player - and again, the same goes for Tavore. There were probably times when people were blind to what the other actors were doing, and devised new courses of action upon discovering new information. This would all fall under what Hood called " wondrous conflagration[s] of circumstance and character", as quoted in Tyrant's post.

My final point is a bit weak, but Erickson has stated in interviews that one of his favorite author's is Umberto Eco - a guy whose two most well known books are about the futility of trying to find grand systemic patterns from the events of life, as well as the futility/arbitrary nature of interpreting texts. I pick up hints of that mentality in some of Fiddler's internal dialogue towards the end of TCG - about the futility of future historians trying to create some precise narrative and meaning from the as-to-be-written Book of the Fallen. So we'll probably never get the satisfying full-closure we seek - and this is probably by SE's own design.

That felt like a lot to type.

From the way I read the series, Kaminsod was only informed of the plan pretty late in the game. Delivering a string of defeats and eliminating his allies was necessary to make the plan more attractive as an option. I think he was maybe informed after the end of RG.

Shadowthrone and Cotillion's plan I think was actually several plans, as they had to make it adaptable for a wide ranging set of possibilities. Also lots of having faith/confidence in their subordinates (knowing or unknowing). Most of the time they trust to getting people to the right place and hoping things go well from there. Only rarely do they step in and act directly (for example, Shadowthrone getting Kalam into the Deadhouse when he was gravely wounded, various times Cotillion stepped in). Which they kinda have to, because for the plan to work it has to stay secret from the other, non-involved gods.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 29 June 2016 - 06:32 AM