Malazan Empire: Tavores Agenda - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Tavores Agenda Was that the plan? Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

  • Dead Serious
  • View gallery
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,851
  • Joined: 14-July 07
  • Location:The C-Hood

Posted 28 March 2011 - 04:54 PM

they probably also wanted to keep the OD away from where all the survivors from the assault on the spire were regrouping.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant
1

#22 User is offline   Bulwyf 

  • ½ man, ½ amazing
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 395
  • Joined: 16-April 07
  • Location:Pillars of Nosgoth

Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:59 PM

View PostTwiddler, on 24 March 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostMagus Rune, on 24 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

The goal wasn't to "get rid of" the Crippled God. It was to free him so he could leave the planet. His worshipers are all just like gods, in that they seek to bind him, gain power from him, and use him. Cotillion has to kill him so he could be released from his physical form. Why Cotillion? I assume because he's the god of assasins--its fitting to have him kill another god.

Remember that Tavore is not a worshiper. She feels compassion for TCG, because he is trapped and enslaved.

She is not allied with the house, either. She recognizes that TCG is enslaved by his own house. The Malazan army (armies, really) are unique in the fact that they 1) do not worship gods, and 2) abhor slavery.


And Tavor isn't the mastermind behind the plan as far as I can tell. Shadowthrone was. Shadowthrone, Quickben, Kruppe, Tehol, Udinaas...SE has a history of making hyper intelligent humans who are superb at manipulating events to a preferred out come.

I don't think you paid attention when you read about Rhulad if you really think he's sane enough to do something like that.


I won't argue that the goal wasn't to "release" the Crippled God. They may have felt sorry for him but I doubt they would have given so many lives just for that.

Fiddler calls Tavore the Consort of the House of Chains. Sounds allied to me.

I was kind of kidding about Rhulad. I was trying to draw attention to the Malazans being directly opposed to the machinations of the Crippled God just before aligning with him.


Basically something had to be done to stop the Crippled God from poisoning their world/warrens. As the reader, you automatically assume you need to defeat the crippled god to save the day. In the first books you find out the crippled god is poisoning Burn and doing all this bad stuff, so you think "bad guy." Tavore and the new gods thought outside the box to solve the problem. They simply sent the CG home. Maybe defeating the Forkul Asail and using the Ototaral Dragon was actually the easier (and more conscience friendly) path than trying to destroy a powerful alien god that powerful elder gods were trying to harness his power.

So it was a mortal army defeating another mortal army, and getting some assistance from some gods to help with the Ototaral Dragon / chain breaking. It seems like it was a lot but it was probably more feasable than mortals trying to kill an alien god, if they even knew how to do so since his body was spread out over the planet, etc.

So the aligning with the Crippled God was their unexpected (to the reader) way of problem solving the Crippled God killing their world. They defeated the Crippled God by saving him. It was an excellent unexpected twist that had never occurred to me reading through the saga.

Steven Erikson rules! :)
Now they will know why they are are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night. -Thulsa Doom

You're such an inspiration for the ways that I would never, ever choose to be. -MJK
2

#23 User is offline   IgnatiusKruppe 

  • Lieutenant
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 101
  • Joined: 08-June 10

Posted 28 March 2011 - 08:51 PM

That was the wonder of humanity's boundless adaptability at work. While the old races & gods were so stuck in their malaise over history repeating itself and would have simply schemed myriad methods of re-chaining the Crippled God in more advantageous ways, humanity- its champions the Bridgeburners, along with kindred spirits/big picture thinkers like Rake, Hood & Mael found a path that removed the cycle altogether.

Does it explicitly say the deaths on their march to Kolanse bought the favor or any Elders? Or mention why they didn't sail the army around the continent, if not to Kolanse then to somewhere north or south of it. The Assail managed to move their armies around a north/south path without problems it seemed.
0

#24 User is offline   Twiddler 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 24-March 11

Posted 29 March 2011 - 02:03 PM

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 28 March 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

View PostTwiddler, on 28 March 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

View PostBlack Company, on 25 March 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...


There was a location where everything came together, but nothing inherently crucial about that location. D'rek came there to protect the ritual againt the Forkrul. Why not avoid the Forkrul altogether? Like, for example, staying with, or behind, the main force. I know there's not much point in arguing "what if" scenarios. It just seemed that crossing the Glass Desert was an epic undertaking with a huge cost and I can't figure out why it was necessary.


No. The sword was needed to be there in the barrow because that's were D'rek was and D'rek was needed to protect the BH from the deadening power of the OD who was needed to dissolve the magical chains binding the CG.


Ok, D'rek was also necessary to survive the OD but D'rek came to the barrow after they selected the location and planted the sword.
0

#25 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

  • Greatest necromancer ever
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 1,859
  • Joined: 15-March 08
  • Location:Italy
  • Not much

Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:48 PM

View PostTwiddler, on 29 March 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 28 March 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

View PostTwiddler, on 28 March 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

View PostBlack Company, on 25 March 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...


There was a location where everything came together, but nothing inherently crucial about that location. D'rek came there to protect the ritual againt the Forkrul. Why not avoid the Forkrul altogether? Like, for example, staying with, or behind, the main force. I know there's not much point in arguing "what if" scenarios. It just seemed that crossing the Glass Desert was an epic undertaking with a huge cost and I can't figure out why it was necessary.


No. The sword was needed to be there in the barrow because that's were D'rek was and D'rek was needed to protect the BH from the deadening power of the OD who was needed to dissolve the magical chains binding the CG.


Ok, D'rek was also necessary to survive the OD but D'rek came to the barrow after they selected the location and planted the sword.



Nope. It's the other way around. Tavore put the sword there and left the BH in the barrow because D'rek was there. At one point K'rul tells the CG that the cave under the barrow was created by D'rek slowly gnawing at the earth. These things don't happen overnight.
Adept of Team Quick Ben

I greet you as guests and so will not crush the life from you and devour your soul with peals of laughter. No, instead, I will make tea-Gothos
0

#26 User is offline   Feathersmith 

  • Acolyte of Team Quick Ben
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 73
  • Joined: 06-March 11
  • Location:Central Oregon
  • Interests:Eating, reading, birds, plants, not getting killed in traffic.
  • I took several years off from reading Malazan and now I've fallen down that rabbithole again and it's gr9

Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:39 PM

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 29 March 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

View PostTwiddler, on 29 March 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 28 March 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

View PostTwiddler, on 28 March 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

View PostBlack Company, on 25 March 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...


There was a location where everything came together, but nothing inherently crucial about that location. D'rek came there to protect the ritual againt the Forkrul. Why not avoid the Forkrul altogether? Like, for example, staying with, or behind, the main force. I know there's not much point in arguing "what if" scenarios. It just seemed that crossing the Glass Desert was an epic undertaking with a huge cost and I can't figure out why it was necessary.


No. The sword was needed to be there in the barrow because that's were D'rek was and D'rek was needed to protect the BH from the deadening power of the OD who was needed to dissolve the magical chains binding the CG.


Ok, D'rek was also necessary to survive the OD but D'rek came to the barrow after they selected the location and planted the sword.



Nope. It's the other way around. Tavore put the sword there and left the BH in the barrow because D'rek was there. At one point K'rul tells the CG that the cave under the barrow was created by D'rek slowly gnawing at the earth. These things don't happen overnight.


No, I think Twiddler has it right: in chapter 24, they find the mound, and Banaschar asks "Why here?" and Fiddler says "Because it is defensible." And then Banaschar says that she (D'rek) can "wrap herself round the base of this hill, like a dragon-worm of legend, I suppose," for "containment." Which all sounds to me like D'rek wasn't there until they picked a good spot to put the otataral sword, and bring the CG's heart, so that they could deal with Korabas and free the CG and all that,and use D'rek's interests to help them (because D'rek wanted to protect the Snake children, which Banaschar said were maybe a sort of manifestation of D'rek, and she also wanted to see the CG gone from the world).

As for how long it took to create that cavern - well, D'rek -is- a god, she can probably work pretty fast, and be pretty big, when she needs to.
Get along for awhile / Citizen, you will see / How the innocent are bound to the damned.
0

#27 User is offline   worry 

  • Master of the Deck
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 14,563
  • Joined: 24-February 10
  • Location:the buried west

Posted 29 March 2011 - 08:52 PM

Either way, Sinsdar Toste is right. They had to lead the OD to (and through) the most lifeless possible place, out of sheer humaneness.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
0

#28 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

  • Dead Serious
  • View gallery
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,851
  • Joined: 14-July 07
  • Location:The C-Hood

Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:03 PM

View PostFeathersmith, on 29 March 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 29 March 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

View PostTwiddler, on 29 March 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 28 March 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

View PostTwiddler, on 28 March 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

View PostBlack Company, on 25 March 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

There was a specific location; didn't Tavore stab the Otatoral sword where D'rek was wrapped around a big hunk of Kaminsod's body? Which was in the Glass Desert? When they have that big palaver (Tavore, Brys, Abrastal, Krughava, etc), the others assumed that the Bonehunters were going to be the sacrificial lamb, but their part was just as important. The thing that gets me is what was the plan if Gesler and Stormy weren't in the House of the Matron [lol]? The only reason the assault on the Spire was successful was because of the K'Chain, with Gu'rull swooping down to scoop up the heart and bring it to the marines. I'm thinking maybe the original plan was for Hood to be the one to take the heart from the FA? He was part of the ST/Cot, K'rul/Mael, Anomander/Hood conspiracy. The attached armies might've originally been thought of as the sacrificial lamb...


There was a location where everything came together, but nothing inherently crucial about that location. D'rek came there to protect the ritual againt the Forkrul. Why not avoid the Forkrul altogether? Like, for example, staying with, or behind, the main force. I know there's not much point in arguing "what if" scenarios. It just seemed that crossing the Glass Desert was an epic undertaking with a huge cost and I can't figure out why it was necessary.


No. The sword was needed to be there in the barrow because that's were D'rek was and D'rek was needed to protect the BH from the deadening power of the OD who was needed to dissolve the magical chains binding the CG.


Ok, D'rek was also necessary to survive the OD but D'rek came to the barrow after they selected the location and planted the sword.



Nope. It's the other way around. Tavore put the sword there and left the BH in the barrow because D'rek was there. At one point K'rul tells the CG that the cave under the barrow was created by D'rek slowly gnawing at the earth. These things don't happen overnight.


No, I think Twiddler has it right: in chapter 24, they find the mound, and Banaschar asks "Why here?" and Fiddler says "Because it is defensible." And then Banaschar says that she (D'rek) can "wrap herself round the base of this hill, like a dragon-worm of legend, I suppose," for "containment." Which all sounds to me like D'rek wasn't there until they picked a good spot to put the otataral sword, and bring the CG's heart, so that they could deal with Korabas and free the CG and all that,and use D'rek's interests to help them (because D'rek wanted to protect the Snake children, which Banaschar said were maybe a sort of manifestation of D'rek, and she also wanted to see the CG gone from the world).

As for how long it took to create that cavern - well, D'rek -is- a god, she can probably work pretty fast, and be pretty big, when she needs to.


she also had several days from the time the sword was planted till korabas' arrival
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant
0

#29 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

  • Dead Serious
  • View gallery
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,851
  • Joined: 14-July 07
  • Location:The C-Hood

Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:06 PM

i've just remembered something else that could account for Tavore's knowledge of the OD. how much did lostara or pearl say of their journey in HoC? lostara knew about a dragon of pure negation of magic right then and there. lostara, or even pearl, could have mentioned it in passing.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant
0

#30 User is offline   Feathersmith 

  • Acolyte of Team Quick Ben
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 73
  • Joined: 06-March 11
  • Location:Central Oregon
  • Interests:Eating, reading, birds, plants, not getting killed in traffic.
  • I took several years off from reading Malazan and now I've fallen down that rabbithole again and it's gr9

Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:21 PM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 29 March 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

i've just remembered something else that could account for Tavore's knowledge of the OD. how much did lostara or pearl say of their journey in HoC? lostara knew about a dragon of pure negation of magic right then and there. lostara, or even pearl, could have mentioned it in passing.


Also, Ruthan Gudd tells Tavore that her sword will summon it, because the dragon has been freed. It's not clear to me if that's a complete surprise to Tavore or not (the OT being freed), because she then goes on to say some things about Quick Ben telling her the sword wouldn't be enough. So she had some warning from QB, at least that it might happen. I think. The section isn't really clear because Tavore never finishes explaining everything that QB was going on about.
Get along for awhile / Citizen, you will see / How the innocent are bound to the damned.
0

#31 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,599
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 30 March 2011 - 02:05 AM

As I see it, splitting the forces, with one going through the Glass Desert, and the other taking the approach from the south was necessary to split the Kolansii forces. Neither of the two forces, nor both together, could take on the entire Kolansii army. The FA could not detect the KCCM with the southern forces so split their own into two roughly equal armies (both largely outnumbering each human army opposing them). If they had detected the KCCM they might have sent more south or held them all back, but they didn't. So with the Kolansii heading after the BHs taking out of the equation and with the KCCM the southern force was strong enough to reach the Spire and for Gu'rull to get the Heart. If the BHs hadn't gone through the Glass Desert, the Kolansii armies would not have split and the attack at the Spire would have failed. If they'd gone around with the southern force the entire Kolansii army would have come at them all and they'd have died. If they had just stayed on the other side of the Glass Desert, the southern force would have faced the whole Kolansii army and died.

Then the Barrow. There was nothing special about the particular location, it was just a random barrow, fairly defensible in mundane terms. The site of the defense of the Heart couldn't be in the Glass Desert, of course, so they set it up just past the Desert. Why did the Heart have to be taken here, though, and not just defended by the victorious armies at the Spire? Because reforming and freeing the CG couldn't be done within the influence of Akhrast Korvalain. So they set up their defense for the Heart, including D'rek and the Otataral sword just outside the Glass Desert, as far from the approaching Kolansii army as possible, and Gu'rull flies it there as soon as possible. The marines defend it while the rest of the Bonehunters march east to fight the Kolansii army, and in so doing buy the marines as much time as possible with their own deaths. And make no mistake, the plan was for the Bonehunter regulars to die. They could not win against the overwhelming Kolansii army, even with their Tellann-enhanced T'lan Imass, Path magics, Badalle and a not-so-Stormrider. It was all about buying the marines as much time as possible, and the marines in turn were buying as much time as possible on their side against their own part of the Kolansii army while the OD is summoned and the CG is released. The marines couldn't hope to defeat their enemy either, but the OD's arrival would kill the Kolansii if they held out long enough. Could the Heart have been brought elsewhere? Maybe. But Tavore's assets were there with her and could she really trust anyone else to defend the Heart? And where would they get the Otataral to summon Korabas to it? There's too many factors that we just don't know, but there were probably plenty of good reasons why the marines couldn't have stayed on the west side of the Glass Desert with Tavore's sword.

Of course Ganoes Paran changes the expected outcome of the plan, but I think it was made pretty clear by ST early on that Tavore did not know Ganoes was there in the Citadel, not to mention the many characters who were heartbroken when they learned Tavore's plan (Fiddler in DoD, Deadsmell after healing her, Aranict, etc.)

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
2

#32 User is offline   Tyrant 

  • You shall reap it
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 32
  • Joined: 09-January 10
  • Location:England

Posted 05 July 2011 - 01:19 AM

The key to understanding the endgame agenda of the major players throughout the entire series lies in Hood's conversation with Shurq Ellale - or at least this is how Erikson wishes to present it as of The Crippled God.

Quote

She considered his words, and then considered them some more. ‘The gods take, but give nothing in return.’
‘Ah, see how the storm dissipates? Excellent, Captain … oh dear, it now returns, much more virulent than before. Captain, I would advise—’
‘Advise me nothing! Couldn’t you have forced their hand? Done something?’
The strange, terrible eyes fixed on her. ‘But I have.’
‘Then … was it necessary for you to leave the realm of death? Is that why you’re here? It must be. You have set something in motion.’
‘I have not acted alone, Captain.’
‘I would hear more, Hood. If there is a reason for all this, I – I need to know it.’
Hood said nothing for a time, studying the roiling clouds marring the way ahead. Then he spoke. ‘I so dislike moments of revelation, Captain. One is invited to infer all manner of deliberation leading us to this place, this time. When the truth of it is chance and mischance rule our every step.’ He sighed. ‘Very well, I am not indifferent to your … needs. This possibility only gained life when two usurpers reawakened the remnants of Kurald Emurlahn – the Realm of Shadow – and then set out to travel the warrens, and indeed the Holds. Seeking knowledge. Seeking the truth of things. What they eventually discovered did not please them. And in the boldness of their … youth, they decided that something must be done.’
‘Two new gods,’ Shurq Elalle murmured. ‘They came to you?’
‘Not at first. Instead, they sought out loyal allies among the mortals they had once commanded. Well, perhaps “mortals” is not quite accurate in some instances. No matter. Let us call it a wondrous conflagration of circumstance and character, a kind of audacity which made anything possible. Before long, they found the need to gather additional allies. Shall I list them for you?’
‘Why not?’
‘The Son of Darkness, who understood the true burden of a surrendered future, the fatality of empty faith. The Warlord of the Sleeping Goddess, who would defy the eternal patience of the earth itself, and Stonewielder, the One who stood facing Caladan Brood, ensuring the world’s balance. These two are destined to walk disparate paths, but what they seek is much the same. The Queen of Dreams, whose pool had grown still as death itself. The Lord of Tragedy – and, well, a host of others, all drawn into the fold.’


It is up to you to decide whether SE really had this laid out from the very beginning and has been working towards this since GoTM, personally I am a little dubious there wasn't at least some retroactive juggling going on. Example, the notion that Shadowthrone and Cotillion, dissatisfied with the state of the pantheon, were acting to redress the balance between Gods and Mortals doesn't seem to gel with their actions in the earlier books, i.e. massacring a village of innocents in Itko Kan with the Hounds and murdering Ganoes Paran through Sorry. Anomander Rake's desire for Paran to refuse the sanctification of the House of Chains is another one, surely as an ally of this godly cabal led by Shadowthrone he would have seen it's necessity.
3

#33 User is offline   worry 

  • Master of the Deck
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 14,563
  • Joined: 24-February 10
  • Location:the buried west

Posted 05 July 2011 - 05:49 AM

I wonder, based on that, if the Jaghut War on Death was meant to force gods to accept their followers' souls, and Hood's betrayal was his formation of a catch-all afterlife instead of continuing that fight. I know there's some specific revelation about it in this book, which I can't fully remember...seemed to make the JWoD seem more figurative, at least in part, but I don't think it contradicts me.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
1

#34 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,599
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 05 July 2011 - 04:23 PM

View PostTyrant, on 05 July 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

The key to understanding the endgame agenda of the major players throughout the entire series lies in Hood's conversation with Shurq Ellale - or at least this is how Erikson wishes to present it as of The Crippled God.

Quote

She considered his words, and then considered them some more. 'The gods take, but give nothing in return.'
'Ah, see how the storm dissipates? Excellent, Captain … oh dear, it now returns, much more virulent than before. Captain, I would advise—'
'Advise me nothing! Couldn't you have forced their hand? Done something?'
The strange, terrible eyes fixed on her. 'But I have.'
'Then … was it necessary for you to leave the realm of death? Is that why you're here? It must be. You have set something in motion.'
'I have not acted alone, Captain.'
'I would hear more, Hood. If there is a reason for all this, I – I need to know it.'
Hood said nothing for a time, studying the roiling clouds marring the way ahead. Then he spoke. 'I so dislike moments of revelation, Captain. One is invited to infer all manner of deliberation leading us to this place, this time. When the truth of it is chance and mischance rule our every step.' He sighed. 'Very well, I am not indifferent to your … needs. This possibility only gained life when two usurpers reawakened the remnants of Kurald Emurlahn – the Realm of Shadow – and then set out to travel the warrens, and indeed the Holds. Seeking knowledge. Seeking the truth of things. What they eventually discovered did not please them. And in the boldness of their … youth, they decided that something must be done.'
'Two new gods,' Shurq Elalle murmured. 'They came to you?'
'Not at first. Instead, they sought out loyal allies among the mortals they had once commanded. Well, perhaps "mortals" is not quite accurate in some instances. No matter. Let us call it a wondrous conflagration of circumstance and character, a kind of audacity which made anything possible. Before long, they found the need to gather additional allies. Shall I list them for you?'
'Why not?'
'The Son of Darkness, who understood the true burden of a surrendered future, the fatality of empty faith. The Warlord of the Sleeping Goddess, who would defy the eternal patience of the earth itself, and Stonewielder, the One who stood facing Caladan Brood, ensuring the world's balance. These two are destined to walk disparate paths, but what they seek is much the same. The Queen of Dreams, whose pool had grown still as death itself. The Lord of Tragedy – and, well, a host of others, all drawn into the fold.'


It is up to you to decide whether SE really had this laid out from the very beginning and has been working towards this since GoTM, personally I am a little dubious there wasn't at least some retroactive juggling going on. Example, the notion that Shadowthrone and Cotillion, dissatisfied with the state of the pantheon, were acting to redress the balance between Gods and Mortals doesn't seem to gel with their actions in the earlier books, i.e. massacring a village of innocents in Itko Kan with the Hounds and murdering Ganoes Paran through Sorry. Anomander Rake's desire for Paran to refuse the sanctification of the House of Chains is another one, surely as an ally of this godly cabal led by Shadowthrone he would have seen it's necessity.


Of course you can always argue that the Itko Kan massacre was necessary to provide a feint that ST&C were just regular gods and not show their epic plans (to Laseen, to other gods, whatever).

Or, maybe ST has no qualms about being a vengeful dick and saving the world in the same day.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
0

#35 User is offline   Sanctume 

  • Lieutenant
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 130
  • Joined: 07-July 09
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA
  • Interests:Reading

Posted 05 July 2011 - 07:29 PM

I think Tavore is the only human (mortal) to think (initial idea) of freeing the Crippled God because of compassion, and the "audacity" of it--defying the gods themselves.

Steve gave enough background for this probability--smart strategist in early childhood, exposed to High First grade circle of peers and acquaintance.

I also would put some thought that perhaps Kel (before being ST) help grow that seed of an idea in her. Kel would have included Tavore's idea/plans as part of his (as ST) of his grand plan which to me is Cot stabbing TCG (that foreshadowing that Cot should have stabbed him in the first chaining).

So, Tavore's goal is to free TCG because of compassion. Yeah, unwitnessed as far as Tavore know because it could mean their deaths.

ST is the brains behind all of it. I would even think ST foresaw (or learned) that releasing TCG will be a huge ass convergence that would include dragons--which leads to the story arc of Rake / Draconus / Hood; Elder Gods and eventually Otataral Dragon and Tiam.
0

#36 User is offline   Kanese S's 

  • TMI Frigate Bird of Low House PEN
  • Group: Mott Irregulars
  • Posts: 1,947
  • Joined: 26-April 11

Posted 06 July 2011 - 07:53 AM

View PostD, on 05 July 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:


Of course you can always argue that the Itko Kan massacre was necessary to provide a feint that ST&C were just regular gods and not show their epic plans (to Laseen, to other gods, whatever).

Or, maybe ST has no qualms about being a vengeful dick and saving the world in the same day.


Totally agree. Just because ST has a sense of perspective and thinks saving the world through a scenario in which the Crippled God also wins doesn't mean that he's not capable of quite the douchebaggery.

Also, in wanting to throw possible investigators off as to what they were doing, given high enough stakes, they'd be fools not to massacre some people.
Laseen did nothing wrong.

I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
0

#37 User is offline   Adeafone delat 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 2
  • Joined: 17-April 13

Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:06 AM

I am not a frequent poster nor do i have some innate knowledge just a propensity to obsessively read and retread this series. I have read all previous posts and felt the need to add my 2+ cents. 1. This story has been told from the perspective of the crippled god and with knowledge that he possessed. Our asking SE anything will just leave us unfulfilled bc we have everything we are going to get from him in regards to this story. It's wildly unfair and will lead the uber fans to conjecture but that's the point, the sneaky beaver. 2. The parans are related to if not the off spring of Kellanved or Dancer, I think Kel. Now I understand that Kel is old, but he and dancer and surly ran smileys, which undoubtedly served alcohol. Paran family were wine merchants, which is fancy "noble speak" for sellers of alcohol or barkeeps. When Ganoes is asked about his stationing in the army in Gotm, he is asked why he was confident that he would get a favorable stationing by lorn. He remarks that he just knew it would work out. Despite one culling of nobles already. Tavore says she is a child of the emperor. She has access to fight known high fists in fake battles and consistently wins. How the hell could any noble get access to military geniuses? Please elaborate if you have a good reason. Also any time Ganoes speaks with ST or Dancer, there is a sense of familiarity that only comes from knowing one of them before the ascension. Granted it was the prologue for Gotm but we meet whiskey jack, surly just hanging out at Ganoes' house, for lack of better term. He also has information about dassem at y'ghatan, which only a few people in the entire empire could possess. I find it highly unlikely that the house paran would just randomly be that prominent, that would be some serious juice.
I have retread the series with this in mind and it looks to be plausible, we will never find out obviously but it could work. It explains tavore having knowledge from ST, blood is thicker than otataral! And even felisin has read heboric's unpublished works about surly's coup. Yea I know I'm reaching but I think SE wants it.

Edit for clarity in spacing.

This post has been edited by Adeafone delat: 28 April 2013 - 03:13 AM

3

#38 User is offline   Kanubis 

  • Captain of Team Quick Ben
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 762
  • Joined: 21-October 09
  • Location:Copenhagen

Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:33 AM

I don't think I quite buy it, but it's nice to see a new theory come up. I don't think I could quite buy the genuine family tie, but the idea that under some guise Kel/Dancer got involved with house Paran early on and primed the kids to a certain degree (the two oldest of whom thus grew up utterly atypical for merchant's children.) It would also go some way to explaining why Tavore was able to acquire a ludicrously badass Talon to look after Felisin. Tavore and Paran were both ultimately instrumental to ST/Cot's very long term plans, and those crafty buggers do like to plan ahead...

Still not convinced though, but it was a nice thought to read :(
Captain of Team Quick Ben. Also teaboy.

0

#39 User is offline   Khestrassa 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 14
  • Joined: 25-March 13

Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:58 AM

View PostKanubis, on 29 April 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I don't think I quite buy it, but it's nice to see a new theory come up. I don't think I could quite buy the genuine family tie, but the idea that under some guise Kel/Dancer got involved with house Paran early on and primed the kids to a certain degree (the two oldest of whom thus grew up utterly atypical for merchant's children.) It would also go some way to explaining why Tavore was able to acquire a ludicrously badass Talon to look after Felisin. Tavore and Paran were both ultimately instrumental to ST/Cot's very long term plans, and those crafty buggers do like to plan ahead...

Still not convinced though, but it was a nice thought to read :(




And the another interesting question is: how got Tavore the title of the Adjunct in the first place? I know, timeline is not important ;-) but we saw her at the time when Ganoes went home after the massacre at Itko Kan. Next - just a few years later - she is the Adjunct. As far as we know she came out of blue after Lorn's death.
Tavore said somwhere, that all of this started when the House of Paran lost their first son. When was that moment exactly? When Ganoes joined to the army? When he "deserted" with Dujek's legions? What Tavore did learn or do in the time between Ganoes last visit and becoming the Adjunct?

This post has been edited by Khestrassa: 29 April 2013 - 08:59 AM

0

#40 User is offline   BenjiGlaab 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 27-January 13

Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

I'm rereading DH right now, trying to pay attention to setup for events in tCG, and wondering how much of what happens with Heboric here was somehow planned/setup, because his role in the end is so crucial. There aren't any suggestions - well, that I picked up on - that he was somehow pushed into touching the jade statue, so . . . I don't know. Similarly, was the 7C rebellion - which draws Tavore and a fleet to that continent - set up, or simply taken advantage of as a way to move pieces around? Rereading and looking for clues and setup has made me very paranoid.
[/quote]

I'm currently reading TCG, and I was stoked when the jade statue made another appearance. I always hoped Erikson would tie up this loose end. whether the statue is Akhrast Korvelaine or not I haven't decided. Until Dod The Chem- aille were also described as alien.
0

Share this topic:


  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users