[Randy]

I still do not understand the significance of Cotillion stabbing The Crippled God as he is chaining the otatarl dragon...


When Heboric is touching the earth and the crippled god, is he repairing burn or replacing the chains from the crippled god onto the otatarl dragon to be tied to Burn instead?

Still curious why Quick Ben is so happy that he said he'd save her and was all proud but Brood was no where to be found. I found that very annoying.

Overall, enjoyed the book. A bit lack luster in areas but other parts were great.

[Sinisdar Toste]

heborics the one who is chaining the o-dragon, and when the chains are off the CG, cotillion has to release the crippled gods soul to join his worshippers who are in the jade strangers. there's a flash of green light shooting into the heavens after cotillion does his thing, which seems like it might be the CGs soul.

edit: i dont think brood would have anything to add to the book. he'd just be sitting around, waiting to see if he would have to swing the hammer. he can't risk himself getting involved in insane convergences, he awaits their conclusions. (for the most part, he had to walk into the middle of one and grab dragnipur, but even then, he didn't have to do anything and he backed off spite and envy. as if by him appearing, the thing was fuckin concluded)

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 11 March 2011 - 07:28 AM

[Ceda Cicero]

The more I think on the bit with Cotillion stabbing the Crippled God, the more it makes sense to me, especially since Held (in another thread where I was pulling my hair out over that scene) pointed out the earlier conversation Mael and K'rul have with Kaminsod, where he asks them how he can possibly ascend to join his followers when he's stuck in a broken down body (they tell him that Heboric will take care of the first part, but another will have to finish it - that's clearly a reference to Cots.)

I think in a lot of ways (and this is going to sound like a criticism but it isn't) the whole Cotillion going stabby on Kaminsod was just a plot device SE used to put Cotillion at the center and end of the whole story. After winks and nudges across 9.8 volumes about Cotillion (and by proxy but in a different way, ST) being central to everything, it wouldn't have made a lot of sense for him to be left out of the convergence, or to have his role have been, say, just showing up and throwing some muscle around to help the Bonehunters out. Structurally speaking, Cotillion needed to be the pivot point for the final convergence. By being the last lever for the ascension of the Crippled God, this happened.

[Abyss]

One of the running subplots was that the gods were drawing power from the CG by chaining him and keeping him suffering. Cotillion, being a Gid and in fact a god who participated in at least one chaining, was a party to this, so there is a significance to Cots making the decision to free the CG by 'killing' his body, all the morese because the God of Assassins is killing someone to free them. We've seen elsewhere that ascendents may ascend to godhood upon the death of their body (Trake, Itkovian), so that was how i took it, even tho there was a moment of shock compounded by Koryk's perspective on the scene.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yeah.Seeing it from Koryk's prospective when Cots stabbed the CG I was all: "You bastard!" Then I realized what he had done.

[ian76]

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:29 PM, said:

One of the running subplots was that the gods were drawing power from the CG by chaining him and keeping him suffering. Cotillion, being a Gid and in fact a god who participated in at least one chaining, was a party to this, so there is a significance to Cots making the decision to free the CG by 'killing' his body, all the morese because the God of Assassins is killing someone to free them. We've seen elsewhere that ascendents may ascend to godhood upon the death of their body (Trake, Itkovian), so that was how i took it, even tho there was a moment of shock compounded by Koryk's perspective on the scene.

As Cotillion says to Edgewalker, right back in the Prologue, "There is more than one path to salvation."

[Sinisdar Toste]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 11 March 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

Yeah.Seeing it from Koryk's prospective when Cots stabbed the CG I was all: "You bastard!" Then I realized what he had done.

so typically SE to give us the one perspective that would make it ambiguous whether or not the right thing was done. sometimes he's such a bastard

[MecnunK]

I get the significance but I still dont fully get why they needed to build the body in the first place. They could have just released the soul of CG or did they need a physical manifestation of him for OT to break the chains...Especially as so much was made over Cg's physical heart and the great ravens which fed on his flesh then fell giving it back to build that body scarficing themselves. If Ravens gave back the flesh then it was actually CG's flesh built in a human form. Where was the damn soul pior to the body being built, we know it was in the body after that..

[alt146]

MecnunK, on 18 March 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

I get the significance but I still dont fully get why they needed to build the body in the first place. They could have just released the soul of CG or did they need a physical manifestation of him for OT to break the chains...Especially as so much was made over Cg's physical heart and the great ravens which fed on his flesh then fell giving it back to build that body scarficing themselves. If Ravens gave back the flesh then it was actually CG's flesh built in a human form. Where was the damn soul pior to the body being built, we know it was in the body after that..

The Crippled God was shattered body and soul in his fall. They needed to create a body for him to draw all the pieces of him back together (even if it's just symbolically) in order to break ALL the chains from each of the multiple chainings and send a whole god back to his people. I also don't know if a crazy bits and pieces god would have agreed to help chain Korabas.

What I'm still not 100% sure on is how this was supposed to redress the relationship between gods and mortals, since that was supposed to be ST and Cot's overall aim.

[MecnunK]

alt146, on 18 March 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

MecnunK, on 18 March 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

I get the significance but I still dont fully get why they needed to build the body in the first place. They could have just released the soul of CG or did they need a physical manifestation of him for OT to break the chains...Especially as so much was made over Cg's physical heart and the great ravens which fed on his flesh then fell giving it back to build that body scarficing themselves. If Ravens gave back the flesh then it was actually CG's flesh built in a human form. Where was the damn soul pior to the body being built, we know it was in the body after that..

The Crippled God was shattered body and soul in his fall. They needed to create a body for him to draw all the pieces of him back together (even if it's just symbolically) in order to break ALL the chains from each of the multiple chainings and send a whole god back to his people. I also don't know if a crazy bits and pieces god would have agreed to help chain Korabas.

What I'm still not 100% sure on is how this was supposed to redress the relationship between gods and mortals, since that was supposed to be ST and Cot's overall aim.

To be honest I hadnt imagned his soul as being shattered/broken as that would imply total death and I use the term with trepidation given it means very little in this series. Chained yes at multiple levels but I thought the soul was whole hence his manifestations especially on the island where he had Withal build the sword.

[worry]

Why would that mean "total death"? That seems like a leap in logic to me.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Just a random thought while reading this thread, but since the 'soul' or whatever of tCG was released after gathering the bits of his flesh removed his power or influence from the world, what do you guys think happened to the chunks of him that were not gathered? Are they now inert, or still repositories of power that can be drawn on. And do you think Kaminsod can still exert any measure of control over them/manifest himself from them?

[ShadowRaven]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 18 March 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

Just a random thought while reading this thread, but since the 'soul' or whatever of tCG was released after gathering the bits of his flesh removed his power or influence from the world, what do you guys think happened to the chunks of him that were not gathered? Are they now inert, or still repositories of power that can be drawn on. And do you think Kaminsod can still exert any measure of control over them/manifest himself from them?

As his consciousness/soul/whatever has left Wu, I don't think he can control them, but I'd like to believe that there is still power in the pieces that are left (hence some of the characters in the book musing about whether they will be able to gather enough pieces to actually make the mortal body). As the Great Ravens had to come to join the effort by themselves, I don't think the other pieces just magically vanished.

And speaking of Korabas, I get it that chaining her in stead of tCG is meant to help heal Burn, but how can that happen when earlier we see the ground (Burn's flesh) below her literally wither and die?

[alt146]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 18 March 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

Just a random thought while reading this thread, but since the 'soul' or whatever of tCG was released after gathering the bits of his flesh removed his power or influence from the world, what do you guys think happened to the chunks of him that were not gathered? Are they now inert, or still repositories of power that can be drawn on. And do you think Kaminsod can still exert any measure of control over them/manifest himself from them?

I don't think they will have any power since Kamisod's soul was seperated from his flash by Cots.

Stonewielder spoiler

Spoiler

Skinner runs off with a piece of the crippled god, so I guess we will know for a fact next time we see him

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

ShadowRaven, on 19 March 2011 - 06:46 AM, said:

And speaking of Korabas, I get it that chaining her in stead of tCG is meant to help heal Burn, but how can that happen when earlier we see the ground (Burn's flesh) below her literally wither and die?

I don't think that was meant to help heal burn directly. I think it was just meant to take her out of play and stop killing all the magic in the world. So it is a good thing for Burn, but I don't think its going to necessarily heal her.

[Black Company]

They needed to build Kaminsod a body to house his soul but also be a container for the million souls that Heboric had taken from one of those Jade Statues. Those million souls gave Kam enough power to beam up to the rest of his worshippers in those Jadettes. Also, Cotillion being there at the end wasn't just a nod. After all, it was ST and Cot's plan in the first place. After all that, would you want someone else there at the absolute end? And he IS the Patron of Assassins after all, who better suited to that final gesture than him? After all that Kam had been through, he probably would have accepted a sword blow to the neck (he did say that he trusted Cot after getting him that far) but in all, it was the more compassionate thing to do. We have seen that Cotillion isn't worried about what people (or Gods) think about him, so a knife to the back seems ill begotten, but Kam didn't even know what hit him. Best way to go.

[Rotten Tost]

Cotillion stabbing the Crippled God makes perfect sense (and brings tears to my eyes) once you read this part of an interview with Steven Erikson on 4/06/11:

Quote

- You and Cam have repeatedly said that the Malazan world and the story that you are telling originated in a role-playing campaign and that you role-played a large number of the characters that eventually star in the series. Since the two characters that really connect everything together in the series are Shadowthrone and Cotillion it seems a good guess that you guys spend a lot of time gaming through them. So, are you Shadowthrone or Cotillion?


-I was Cotillion; Cam was Shadowthrone. We still are and have been throughout the novels. The Nethspace review of the series finally mentioned the notion that this series is postmodern fantasy. You have no idea how long I've been waiting for someone to say that,

When Cotillion stabs tCG, he frees him, and Erikson finally finishes his twenty year long series. What a nice touch to the ending of such a great feat...

http://fantasyhotlis...-interview.html

[Migol]

Just to throw in some fuel for conversation:

Is it possible that Cotillon's actions were still in opposition to the Adjuncts?

Way earlier in the series Cotillon seems surprised to find the Talons are still around, and apparently up to something. Then later he figures it out (without being helpful and monologuing to the reader about his thoughts), and says something to the effect that he know's what's going on, who's in charge of the talon, oh, and he'd have to stop it/them.

Since Tavore seems to be the head of the talon, is that a reference to her? Like, she may think that by resurrecting/freeing Kaminsod she's doing the emperor/cot's will, but they don't want it. Is it possible that, all things being equal ST and CoT would like to continue parasiting off the CG, and that killing him was "failure" but more cutting their losses (IE him being alive and free would be far worse than him being dead, even if they'd rather he had remained chained). Food for thought.

[Rysto]

Migol, on 10 April 2011 - 03:23 AM, said:

Just to throw in some fuel for conversation:

Is it possible that Cotillon's actions were still in opposition to the Adjuncts?

Way earlier in the series Cotillon seems surprised to find the Talons are still around, and apparently up to something. Then later he figures it out (without being helpful and monologuing to the reader about his thoughts), and says something to the effect that he know's what's going on, who's in charge of the talon, oh, and he'd have to stop it/them.

Since Tavore seems to be the head of the talon, is that a reference to her? Like, she may think that by resurrecting/freeing Kaminsod she's doing the emperor/cot's will, but they don't want it. Is it possible that, all things being equal ST and CoT would like to continue parasiting off the CG, and that killing him was "failure" but more cutting their losses (IE him being alive and free would be far worse than him being dead, even if they'd rather he had remained chained). Food for thought.

The head of the Talon was in Sha'ik's camp, but I can't remember off hand who it was.

Edit: Just looked it up. It was Korbolo Dom.

This post has been edited by Rysto: 10 April 2011 - 04:31 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Rysto, on 10 April 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:

Migol, on 10 April 2011 - 03:23 AM, said:

Just to throw in some fuel for conversation:

Is it possible that Cotillon's actions were still in opposition to the Adjuncts?

Way earlier in the series Cotillon seems surprised to find the Talons are still around, and apparently up to something. Then later he figures it out (without being helpful and monologuing to the reader about his thoughts), and says something to the effect that he know's what's going on, who's in charge of the talon, oh, and he'd have to stop it/them.

Since Tavore seems to be the head of the talon, is that a reference to her? Like, she may think that by resurrecting/freeing Kaminsod she's doing the emperor/cot's will, but they don't want it. Is it possible that, all things being equal ST and CoT would like to continue parasiting off the CG, and that killing him was "failure" but more cutting their losses (IE him being alive and free would be far worse than him being dead, even if they'd rather he had remained chained). Food for thought.

The head of the Talon was in Sha'ik's camp, but I can't remember off hand who it was.

Evidently Dom. Also, a false "head", as the Talon all went undercover after the Claw started hunting them during Kellenved and Dancer's sojourn.

Edit: You sure it was Dom himself? I just glanced at it and couldn't tell from the end.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 10 April 2011 - 05:41 AM