[King Bear]

I'm interested to hear opinions on classic fantasy, particularly compared with the modern fare. By 'classic' I mean everything from around Lord Dunsany (he seems to be the great-grandaddy of modern fantasy) till maybe around the start of the 80s. Kinda before/just around the rise of tolkienesque farm/kitchen/stable boy saves world stuff like Eddings, Brooks, Fiest, Williams, Jordan, Jones, Goodkind etc and then the more recent counter-movement againt it from Martin, Erikson, Abercrombie etc. Fantasy changed over the 'classic' period too (we could easily sub-divide it and if this discussion gets going probably soon will), but I'm keeping things simple for the beginning post at least. So books like (YA italicised):

The Gods of Pegana, Dunsany: 1905
Jurgen, Cabell: 1919
The Worm Ouroboros, Eddison: 1922
The King of Elfland's Daughter, Dunsany: 1924
Lud in the Mist, Mirless: 1926
Conan, Howard: 1930s
Lankhmar (Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser), Lieber: 1936-1968
The Once and Future King, White: 1938-1958
Gormenghast, Peake: 1946-59
The Dying Earth, Vance: 1950s-80s
Narnia, Lewis: 1950s
tLotRs, Tolkien: 1955
Prydain Chronicles, Alexander: 1960s.
Elric of Melnibone, Moorcock: 1960s-70s
Witch World, Norton: 1963
The Dark is Rising, Cooper: 1965-77
The Last Unicorn, Beagle: 1968
The Wizard of Earthsea, Le Guin: 1968
The Chronicles of Amber, Zelazny: 1970s
Viriconium, Harrison: 1970-85
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, McKillip: 1974
The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - The Unbeliever, Donaldson: 1977-79; 1980-83.
The Drawing of the Dark, Powers: 1979
The Book of the New Sun, Wolfe: 1980-83
Little Big, Crowley: 1981
Lyonesse, Vance (oops it's a bit late at 1983-90 but I only just found that out plus Vance is a 'classic' author anyway and Lyonesse is pretty different from standard the 80s fantasy in many ways)
The Dragon Waiting, Ford: 1983

Spoiler

updated list. Generally just one book/series per author - exception for Dunsany since tKoED is probably his 'best'/most famous but I also wanted to put him at the start of the list where he belongs. Oh and Vance also, I guess because Lyonesse and tDE are very different and Lyonesse came much later

there are tonnes more (some of which I've read, some I haven't), but that list covers the period pretty well I think.

So is there much love for the classics these days? What classic fantasy have you read? Did you find them boring? Did anyone enjoy them more than the modern stuff, generally speaking? Or any other reaction or impression that comes to mind.

I've been taking the time to read classic fantasy over the past couple of years, and I was impressed by what I read. A lot of it (especially the earlier stuff) was VERY different from what's out in 2011, but I don't think either one is inherently better than the other. Or at least, I find I can enjoy each equally according to what they are. And there are certain things I miss from certain classic titles when I read modern fantasy, and visa versa. Probably what struck me most was how very good, how very CREATIVE and fascinating the 'classic' period was. Things didn't really get stale until the advent of Brooks et al, who all insisted on doing the same thing, and doing it over and over and over, until for many that was what fantasy meant.

EDIT: If anyone has any additions to the list, let me know and I'll add them in. That's for my benefit as much as anything else, since the list is now everything I've read or planning to read (Cabell, Norton, Mirless). So any additions double as recommendations to me . Though IMO the list is a damn good guide in itself to anyone who wants to read classic fantasy.

This post has been edited by Quickie Ben: 12 April 2011 - 02:55 PM

[Tattersail_]

Personally out of this list I have only read tLotR, which I did enjoy, so my opinion won't be regarded as highly as others. I have read quite a lot of books but one cannot read hundreds unless you study them, I don't have the time, I read tCG in 2 weeks, the same for every malazan book, and I have re read the series 2 or 3 times. The same with WoT. So just from these two series, you're talking a good year easy for just these books. Then all the Patterson books, and various trilogy books, books by Trudy Caravan and JK Rowling, oops I admitted it.

My point is, I would only read a "classic" fantasy book if I was directed towards it from multiple sources. I just don't have the time to go back and read an "original" if it turns out to be not good. This is my opinion you understand, but if you were to recommend a "classic" book i'd research it and look into it a lot more before actually buying it.

[Salt-Man Z]

I've started digging back into the genre's roots the past couple of years, and by and large that stuff's on par with the best that's being written today. My thoughts on what I've read:

The King of Elfland's Daughter (1924) - I just read this last year, and enjoyed it. It didn't really grab me, though I can see how 90 years ago it would have been a revelation.

Conan (1930s) - Howard's original stories are fantastic, and have held up amazingly well after almost 80 years.

Gormenghast (1946-59) - Not for everyone. But if you're a lover of language, or just appreciate someone who can wield letters like an artist with a paintbrush, you need to read these.

The Dying Earth (1950s-80s) - I rather enjoyed the first collection of short stories, but the longer works fell flat for me, though that's just personal preference.

The Lord of the Rings (1955) - Great stuff. It's been a decade or so since I read it, but I'm looking forward to rereading it again in the near future.

The Chronicles of Amber (1970s) - These could have been written today, if it weren't for all the chain-smoking. Fun, fantastic stuff, though the second series is rather underwhelming after the magic of the first series.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (1977-83) - Believe it or not, this was pretty much my intro to fantasy outside of Tolkein when I read them 9 or so years ago. I liked them, but I think Donaldson's other series are all superior to this one.

The Book of the New Sun (1980-83) - One of my favorite "books" (I own the entire series in an omnibus edition) of all time. I do a reread every December.

[caladanbrood]

To be honest, I read more classic sci-fi than fantasy. But the general rule I have always found is that if it's in the Masterworks collection, it's worth a try




http://en.wikipedia....asy_Masterworks

[masan's saddle]

You should probably check out Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories.

If memory serves they were written in the 30's and are widely regarded as classics of the genre. I remember reading them when I was younger and enjoying them in a distracting sort of way, good stuff though.

[Aptorian]

Tattersail, on 09 March 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

books by Trudy Caravan

SO YOU'RE THE ONE WHO KEEPS BUYING THAT SHIT!

[FastBen]

Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast series might be another addition to your list....

Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is great! Its a really original work - not straightforward at all and the story must be pieced together but that's part of what makes it a unique experience.

[Chaeone]

I've read the first amber series and i'm going to read the next 5 soon. really enjoyed them and they were lots of fun.

everyone waxes so lyrical about gene wolfe, but i have to admit i just couldn't connect with it. i've tried 3 times, really just isn't for me.

bought a leather bound collection of conan stories, absolutely awesome. so easy to pick up and put down for a read.

one series i just can't find anywhere though is the Majipoor stories by robert silverburg. having said that, they may be a sci-fi fantasy mash up. supposedly they are very good though.

[McLovin]

Majipoor is actually a blend of SF and F. I've read the first one (Lord Valentine's Castle?), it was a decent travelogue of a very weird planet. Worth the read if you can find.

I guess you gotta add Chronicles of Narnia to that list too.

EDIT - Oh and Fritz Lieber's Fafrhd & Gray Mouser tales.

This post has been edited by McLovin: 09 March 2011 - 08:51 PM

[Chaeone]

McLovin, on 09 March 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

Majipoor is actually a blend of SF and F. I've read the first one (Lord Valentine's Castle?), it was a decent travelogue of a very weird planet. Worth the read if you can find.

I guess you gotta add Chronicles of Narnia to that list too.

EDIT - Oh and Fritz Lieber's Fafrhd & Gray Mouser tales.

did you not read the rest of majipoor because they were good but not great, or just never got back to reading it? if you don't mind me asking?

[stone monkey]

I've read pretty much all of those. You might want to add a few things to the list:

Lud In The Mist - Hope Mirlees (1926)

Jurgen - James Branch Cabell (1919) and the rest of his Poictesme series (e.g. Figures of Earth (1921), The Silver Stallion (1926) etc.)

Zimiavian Trilogy - ER Eddison (1935-58)

[King Bear]

Salt-Man Z, on 09 March 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

I've started digging back into the genre's roots the past couple of years, and by and large that stuff's on par with the best that's being written today. My thoughts on what I've read:

The Book of the New Sun (1980-83) - One of my favorite "books" (I own the entire series in an omnibus edition) of all time. I do a reread every December.

Probably out of all the classics I've read that one stands out to me the most. Amber, LotRs, Elric (Stormbringer especially) and The Once and Future King are also up there.

caladanbrood, on 09 March 2011 - 05:54 PM, said:

To be honest, I read more classic sci-fi than fantasy. But the general rule I have always found is that if it's in the Masterworks collection, it's worth a try

http://en.wikipedia....asy_Masterworks

Classic sci-fi is something I want to get into soon. I have an H.G. Wells Omnibus, and figure that would be a good place to start. Any other recommendations? If I don't like them, I'll blame Brood

The Masterworks series is great. It was how I got my hands on most of those old titles. If anyone uses it as a guide to classic fantasy, just be aware that some important titles aren't part of the series. Some are impossible to overlook anyway, ie LotRs and Narnia. Others are: Gormenghast, the Once and Future King, The Last Unicorn, and Earthsea.

masan, on 09 March 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

You should probably check out Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories.

If memory serves they were written in the 30's and are widely regarded as classics of the genre. I remember reading them when I was younger and enjoying them in a distracting sort of way, good stuff though.

McLovin, on 09 March 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

Majipoor is actually a blend of SF and F. I've read the first one (Lord Valentine's Castle?), it was a decent travelogue of a very weird planet. Worth the read if you can find.

I guess you gotta add Chronicles of Narnia to that list too.

EDIT - Oh and Fritz Lieber's Fafrhd & Gray Mouser tales.

I read Lieber, and it's good stuff. Others that I read that aren't on the list are The Forgotten Beasts of Eld and The Dragon Waiting, both also good.

Lieber, Howard and Moorcock seem to have been something of a triumvirate of classic sword and sorcery. Moorcock's Elric is probably my favourite

Spoiler

such a complex anti-hero, and the ending was an epic, tragic, chilling piece of writing

. I plan to read more of Moorcock's Eternal Champion multiverse books, starting with the History of the Runestaff.

Will add Narnia and Lieber to that list

This post has been edited by Bombur: 09 March 2011 - 10:42 PM

[King Bear]

stone monkey, on 09 March 2011 - 10:33 PM, said:

I've read pretty much all of those. You might want to add a few things to the list:

Lud In The Mist - Hope Mirlees (1926)

Jurgen - James Branch Cabell (1919) and the rest of his Poictesme series (e.g. Figures of Earth (1921), The Silver Stallion (1926) etc.)

Zimiavian Trilogy - ER Eddison (1935-58)

Lud in the Mist is something I need to pick up. I haven't heard of Jurgen but you've got me interested just because of how early it is. Looking it up now. I may read Zimiavian in the future, but Ouroboros is sufficient Eddison for me for now.

Wikipedia on Jurgen:
"The novel was denounced by the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice; they attempted to bring a prosecution for obscenity. The case went on for two years before Cabell and his publisher, Robert M. McBride, won: the "indecencies" were double entendres that also had a perfectly decent interpretation, though it appeared that what had actually offended the prosecution most was a joke about papal infallibility.

Cabell took an author's revenge: the revised edition of 1926 included a previously "lost" passage in which the hero is placed on trial by the Philistines, with a large dung-beetle as the chief prosecutor. He also wrote a short book, Taboo, in which he thanks John H. Sumner and the Society for Suppression of Vice for generating the publicity that gave his career a boost."

Lulz. Now I'm even more interested in Jurgen. Would 'Epic Quest/Wanderings for Sex' summarise it? Sounds like something of an anti-Tolkien before Tolkien.

This post has been edited by Bombur: 09 March 2011 - 11:06 PM

[King Bear]

Tattersail, on 09 March 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

Personally out of this list I have only read tLotR, which I did enjoy, so my opinion won't be regarded as highly as others. I have read quite a lot of books but one cannot read hundreds unless you study them, I don't have the time, I read tCG in 2 weeks, the same for every malazan book, and I have re read the series 2 or 3 times. The same with WoT. So just from these two series, you're talking a good year easy for just these books. Then all the Patterson books, and various trilogy books, books by Trudy Caravan and JK Rowling, oops I admitted it.

My point is, I would only read a "classic" fantasy book if I was directed towards it from multiple sources. I just don't have the time to go back and read an "original" if it turns out to be not good. This is my opinion you understand, but if you were to recommend a "classic" book i'd research it and look into it a lot more before actually buying it.

If you're interested you could try some of the shorter ones. The sword and sorcery series for instance: Conan, Lankhmar and Elric. These mostly comprise short stories/novellas and are smooth, fun and exciting reads.

For Elric: Stormbringer
The (short) Elric novel and best Elric tale. Elric is an albino warrior-mage and tragic anti-hero. He is physically weak and is addicted to the strength afforded by his soul-drinking chaos blade Stormbringer. He is one of the last survivors and emperor of a wicked and dying race of chaos worshippers who once ruled the world with their dark sorceries. In Stormbringer the apocalypse arrives and Elric challenges the chaos god as the world literally goes to hell.

For Lankhmar: Ill-met in Lankhmar, part of Swords and Deviltry, the first set of Lankhmar tales. Ill-met in Lankhmar recounts the first meeting of Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, the duo at the centre of the Lankhmar tales. The pair are adventurers who are as much thieves as heroes, but humane all the same. Fafhrd is a barbarian and Mouser a rouge and minor mage. Their lust for adventure is matched only by their lust for beer and wenches, and their penchant for getting themselves waist-deep into all kinds of shit.

For Conan: well this is a tricky one. Try The Hour of the Dragon for Conan's latter period as king of Aquilonia, The Tower of the Elephant for his early sneak-thievery days, and The People of the Black Circle, Queen of the Black Coast or Beyond the Black River for his middle years as a wandering warrior/marauder/pirate.

Other shorter works you might want to look into are The Last Unicorn and The King of Elfland's Daughter. Both are whimsical and enchanting to read. The Last Unicorn is about, well, the last unicorn... leaving the safety of her forest in attempt to find more of her kind. The King of Elfland's Daughter concerns a young ruler who ventures into the fey world of elfland to bring back a faerie princess (the tititular daughter) to be his bride.

[Chaeone]

Sci-fi masterworks are what got me into the amber novels actually. Lord of light by zelazny is one of the best books i've ever had the pleasure of reading, so when i saw the first amber omnibus i picked it upp straight away.
Also cities in flight by james blish. they made me think of warhammer for some reason, maybe because before then all i had erad in sci-fi were a handful of warhammer novels...

apologies as i know this deviates from the topic a bit...

[MWKarsa]

Out of the list I haven't read that many but:

LOTR: will always be a standard I judge other series by mainly because of the attachment I have with that series with my late father. He introduced The Hobbit and then LOTR when I was very young. I loved them at a young age and upon multiple re-reads later in life I've gained a greater appreciation of the story, the characters and themes Tolkien wrote about. I honestly greatly enjoyed comparing my first impression reading this series as a youth to when I was much older. It has not just held up but got better later on.

Conan- I read the first couple of books as a kid and honestly did not like them as much as I thought I would. Probably won't have time but a re-read might be in order to assess them better.

C.S. Lewis- Loved them as a kid but have yet to re-read them and honestly after watching the movies my memory is warped.

The Once and Future King and the Book of Merlin- I freaking loved as a kid but haven't re-read them yet.

The Thomas Covenant series by Donaldson was one of the first books I can actually remember putting down and not finishing. I was pretty young but I just could not get into the character or series. I have bought the first 2 series and I'm actually looking forward to reading them to see how my opinion might have changed over the years.

[amphibian]

I've read the following from the list:

Bombur, on 09 March 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Conan, Howard: 1930s

Gormenghast, Peake: 1946-59

Narnia, Lewis: 1950s
tLotRs, Tolkien: 1955

The Chronicles of Amber, Zelazny: 1970s
Viriconium, Harrison: 1970-85

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - The Unbeliever, Donaldson: 1977-83

The Book of the New Sun, Wolfe: 1980-83

Perhaps Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles from the '60s should be added. I think those books were my first non-Greek myth, true fantasy books I ever came across.

Viriconium, especially the recent anthology, was such a great achievement that I'd consider it a fully fledged modern work even today.

As far as the differences between classic and modern fantasy, I think many of the authors back then were content to do little research and push and pull old myths and tropes into slightly different shapes. There's more of a framework established today (standing on the shoulders of giants and alladat) that allows for greater improvisation and risk-taking. There seems to be a bit more rigor to today's work. Things generally are internally consistent. There's more leeway as to what characters can do or not do (loosening societal strictures helped with that too). Readers are more tolerant of divergent storylines - as long as they lead somewhere worthwhile. Decades of scientific discoveries, art and the strange imaginations of the Japanese have cracked open enormous new vistas for authorial exploration and let us readers explore the basis of what we see as reality in different ways.

Fortunately, we can tell that improvisation and risk-taking is something that people today are willing to recognize, read and even pay for. I really liked Werthead's several posts on his blog about the development of television series into long-running narratives from the 1960s to now, and how SF in its various forms was incredibly important to that development.

It seems like television moved from short stories to novels, while fantasy books began to get longer, play around with more concepts, add more and more layers and become experiences that just about cannot be replicated in television or movies. That experience could only be gotten via book and authors began to engage in a simultaneously conscious and unconscious competition to one-up each other in bringing new experiences to the reader and to each other. That competition combined with the existing framework of prior works and the general goodwill of a multi-faceted audience willing to buy and read new books has led us to some very cool places.

And everything came to a head and peaked when David Foster Wallace dropped Infinite Jest upon us. Bam! It was over. Erikson was just too dense and myopic to realize that the genre had come to an end and churned out books without raising his head from the pages. He totally lucked into a publisher that would put the books out in order to appease the lumber and printshop lobbies. Gotta have something to sell, even if The Entertainment is making its rounds...

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 March 2011 - 04:07 AM

[Spiridon_Deannis]

You may want to check out P.C. Hodgell´s *Godstalk*-Trilogy. Pretty interesting stuff.

[amphibian]

I also think that classic fantasy came from times when people had more monolithic, old, tottering pillars in their worldviews. You just had to pay attention to the Catholic Church (or other regionally powerful religious/cultural/political organization), or the Soviets (or the Americans), or Arthurian myth (Norse myths, Greek myths, African myths, Chinese myths, Indian myths etc.), or what the radio said every morning. They dominated our attention and we were content to let that happen. There was a fracturing along the way and now we have so many more things to pay attention to, but less intensely so.

There's more pieces of the real world for modern authors to play around with. Play games of Eschaton or that sort of thing too.

[Tattersail_]

Clockwork Apt, on 09 March 2011 - 06:21 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 09 March 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

books by Trudy Caravan

SO YOU'RE THE ONE WHO KEEPS BUYING THAT SHIT!

got it bought for me, as a gift really, family knows I like fantasy so they buy random books. I read all three of them, if there are more then I don't know