[Tattersail_]

Quote

The Book of the New Sun (1980-83) - One of my favorite "books" (I own the entire series in an omnibus edition) of all time. I do a reread every December.

what's this about? non spoiler'd review if you could.

[McLovin]

Chaeone, on 09 March 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:

did you not read the rest of majipoor because they were good but not great, or just never got back to reading it? if you don't mind me asking?

I read this back before the days of the Internet and everything-just-a-click-away. Plus at the time I lived in a town of about 7000 people. So yeah, I found the first book but never found the sequels. Then life happens, stuff gets forgotten, and 20+ years go by.

I probably wouldn't return to it even if I could find it now, because I have to be very selective what to read nowadays.

[Salt-Man Z]

Tattersail, on 10 March 2011 - 10:37 AM, said:

Quote

The Book of the New Sun (1980-83) - One of my favorite "books" (I own the entire series in an omnibus edition) of all time. I do a reread every December.

what's this about? non spoiler'd review if you could.

In short, it's the memoir of Severian, following his life from an apprentice in the Guild of Torturers until he gains the throne. (Not a spoiler; he reveals that in the first or second chapter.) The story is told by Severian himself, who has an eidetic memory and thus never forgets anything, and "translated" by Gene Wolfe, and it takes place millions of years in the future when the Urth is in decline and the sun is dying.

Like the MBotF, the narrative drops you right into the world without explaining anything, or I should say Severian explains some things, but leaves many details to be pieced together from context--he either assumes (incorrectly) his reader will know what he's talking about, or he may be intentionally obfuscating parts of the story.

[amphibian]

Tattersail, on 10 March 2011 - 10:37 AM, said:

what's this about? non spoiler'd review if you could.

There is a man named Severian who lives on a planet called Urth. He's writing the books of his autobiography from a period late in his life. It starts off with his childhood in the guild of the torturers (who are both professional torturers and executioners). He grows up, gets sent away from the guild due to falling in love with a soon-to-be-executed woman and has some truly crazy adventures along the way with some very strange people.

Although Severian professes to have a perfect memory, he probably doesn't and often lies or misdirects the reader in subtle ways. In short, the books are written with the "unreliable narrator" perspective firmly in place.

It's kinda like a mix of Malazan (if the books were driven by a true main character), Gormenghast, Huckleberry Finn (if he were older and had to kill people for a living) and some subtle science fiction and soldier books. I love it and many others on this forum do too. Some people have a hard time getting into it because Severian is rarely straightforwards and there's often a ton of layers to the events - references to mythology, unfamiliar vocabulary, symbolism or emotional stuff that's buried deeply.

[Use Of Weapons]

Classic fantasy I'd add:

Patricia McKillip's Riddle-Master of Hed trilogy
Susan Cooper The Dark Is Rising sequence
John Crowley Little, Big
André Norton Witch World
James Schmitz The Witches of Karres
Louise Cooper The Time-Master Trilogy


Some of those are these days pigeon-holed as YA works, but they're still excellent stories.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 10 March 2011 - 04:04 AM, said:

...Perhaps Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles from the '60s should be added. ...

jitsukerr, on 10 March 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

...Susan Cooper The Dark Is Rising sequence
...André Norton Witch World...

You beat me to these. Totally properly on the list.

I've read chunks of the upthread tho far from all. It's hard to argue against Conan, Lankhmar and Elric as foundations of the genre along with Middle-Earth.

I know it's controversial, but the first three of Brooks' Shannarra books might belong there... SWORD was written back in '77 after all and say what one will about that book, ELFSTONES was more original.

Similarly it's hard to argue against Feist's MAGICIAN at a minimum.

The 'problem' with Feist and Brooks is that they continue writing those series to this day, which distinguishes them from most of the upthread authors who are either dead, retired or so far under the radar as not to matter either way.

[ansible]

Tattersail, on 10 March 2011 - 10:37 AM, said:

Quote

The Book of the New Sun (1980-83) - One of my favorite "books" (I own the entire series in an omnibus edition) of all time. I do a reread every December.

what's this about? non spoiler'd review if you could.

All I can say is do yourself a favor and read this. It is honestly my favorite book, bar none.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 10 March 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

I know it's controversial, but the first three of Brooks' Shannarra books might belong there... SWORD was written back in '77 after all and say what one will about that book, ELFSTONES was more original.

Similarly it's hard to argue against Feist's MAGICIAN at a minimum.

The 'problem' with Feist and Brooks is that they continue writing those series to this day, which distinguishes them from most of the upthread authors who are either dead, retired or so far under the radar as not to matter either way.

Is their inclusion based on their actual effects upon the literature or mostly because they sold a shitload of books when the field as a whole wasn't doing very well?

I mean, I'd not include James Cameron's Titanic on a list of "Greatest/Most Influential Movies of All Time", but it might sneak in on a "Big Budget Special Effects Movie Everybody and Their Mother Saw". It might be a similar case with Avatar. We all know how successful that movie was in terms of audience and money made. Avatar seems like it thrust 3D into mainstream for good and the special effects created to do that movie will probably resonate for years to come, but the story was honestly poorly put together.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 10 March 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Is their inclusion based on their actual effects upon the literature or mostly because they sold a shitload of books when the field as a whole wasn't doing very well?
...

In terms of what is a "classic", one could argue Feist and Brooks (with a hand from Alexander among others) pioneered the 'farmboy goes on adventure, levels up, saves world' elements of the genre. Say what you will about that being good or bad, it's staple of the field and they are among the most memorable of those who did it early on.

[King Bear]

Abyss, on 10 March 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

amphibian, on 10 March 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Is their inclusion based on their actual effects upon the literature or mostly because they sold a shitload of books when the field as a whole wasn't doing very well?
...

In terms of what is a "classic", one could argue Feist and Brooks (with a hand from Alexander among others) pioneered the 'farmboy goes on adventure, levels up, saves world' elements of the genre. Say what you will about that being good or bad, it's staple of the field and they are among the most memorable of those who did it early on.

You make a good point Abyss, and no doubt that Magician and Elfstones are classics and very good. Viewed on the basis of what they meant at the time they were published they deserve to be included and lauded. The only thing is that the 'classic' period I was interested in was up until around the time that Fiest and Brooks and Eddings and their style of books 'took over' the genre. I wanted to look at fantasy before that happened, so wasn't interested so much in their works. Yes it's arbitary (periodisation pretty much unavoidably is) and anachronistic, but at least I had a focus for doing it.

While we're on the topic of farmboy books, is the Belgariad any good? It's pretty much the only major farmboy series I've never read/attempted to read (I'm talking about you Goodkind).

Admittedly, I wasn't going to include the YA stuff (Narnia is in since it's so significant I couldn't leave it out). But since YA serieses have been suggested and 'seconded' they're going in.

This post has been edited by Bombur: 11 March 2011 - 03:05 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

To be fair, Donaldson shouldn't really be up there, as he and Terry Brooks were published simultaneously, by the same publisher, which is what pretty much kicked off the modern fantasy "movement".

[ansible]

Bombur, on 11 March 2011 - 03:04 AM, said:

While we're on the topic of farmboy books, is the Belgariad any good? It's pretty much the only major farmboy series I've never read/attempted to read (I'm talking about you Goodkind).

Admittedly, I wasn't going to include the YA stuff (Narnia is in since it's so significant I couldn't leave it out). But since YA serieses have been suggested and 'seconded' they're going in.

I really like the Belgariad. I read it when I was younger but it is a compelling, easy read. The Will and the Word is cool as fuck and Silk is a badass, plain and simple. I'd recommend it.

This post has been edited by ansible: 11 March 2011 - 03:48 AM

[King Bear]

Salt-Man Z, on 11 March 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

To be fair, Donaldson shouldn't really be up there, as he and Terry Brooks were published simultaneously, by the same publisher, which is what pretty much kicked off the modern fantasy "movement".

Yeah I was dubious about Donaldson, but since he consciously wrote Covenant as a reponse to tLotRs rather than in simple mimicry, I added him. He plays with a lot of same tropes, but often deconstructs them, especially regarding thomas and the classic hero figure. This makes Covenant a very different experience to Shannara, Magician, SOT, WOT etc. If there is more dissent though Thomas will get Lord Foul's boot.

[King Bear]

ansible, on 11 March 2011 - 03:47 AM, said:

Bombur, on 11 March 2011 - 03:04 AM, said:

While we're on the topic of farmboy books, is the Belgariad any good? It's pretty much the only major farmboy series I've never read/attempted to read (I'm talking about you Goodkind).

Admittedly, I wasn't going to include the YA stuff (Narnia is in since it's so significant I couldn't leave it out). But since YA serieses have been suggested and 'seconded' they're going in.

I really like the Belgariad. I read it when I was younger but it is a compelling, easy read. The Will and the Word is cool as fuck and Silk is a badass, plain and simple. I'd recommend it.

Just remembered I was going to read it when I was 13, at least I think it was that, until a friend of mine started raving about how a it had a sexy (I think that was entirely his interpretation) scene with a 10 year old girl swimming naked. His rant was off-putting to say the least. Eventually another friend told him to shut up, and encouraged me to read it and pay no attention to our friend. But the damage had been done and I ended up reading Shannara instead. I mean we were 13, but a 10 year old?? Seriously?

[D'rek]

I'd say more that Covenant is among the first of the fantasy moving away from the classical traditions, rather than being part of the classic fantasy branch.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Aw, c´mon, Belgariad is kinda fun to read if yer 15 years old, but beyond that, just *can* it. Great intro lit, then move on. Pleeeaaaseee !!!

[Mentalist]

I know people will disagree, but Weis and Hickman's "Dragonlance" books should probably be up there. while they are still essentially the "good vs evil" classic fantasy, they made a conscious effort in their world building to introduce a third force, and make the statement that "good can't exist w/o evil and vice versa". Which was a huge step, even if the plots were simply adaptations of a D&D game a bunch of authors played.

[King Bear]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 11 March 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:

Aw, c´mon, Belgariad is kinda fun to read if yer 15 years old, but beyond that, just *can* it. Great intro lit, then move on. Pleeeaaaseee !!!

I may will read it eventually just for a greater sense of the genre, but I hope I don't have to push myself through it like I did with Dragonlance. One question then: is it something you could enjoy reading for the first time as an adult, or will it just seem lame?

[King Bear]

Mentalist, on 11 March 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

I know people will disagree, but Weis and Hickman's "Dragonlance" books should probably be up there. while they are still essentially the "good vs evil" classic fantasy, they made a conscious effort in their world building to introduce a third force, and make the statement that "good can't exist w/o evil and vice versa". Which was a huge step, even if the plots were simply adaptations of a D&D game a bunch of authors played.

I personally couldn't call dragonlance a huge step for the genre. To me it was a stock-standard tLotRs/Star Wars story. On the third force thing, Moorcock's multiverse had something like that: Chaos, Law and Balance. Two opposed forces and another in between which acted as a mediator and ass kicker if one of the others got too strong.

[Mentalist]

While the original trilogy (Chronicles) can be read as a standard LOtR "fetch quest", the second trilogy (Legends), and the main arc books that followed (Summer flame, and even more so, War of the Souls), are VERY different.