[Yellow]

@McLovin... have another read of it, notice how all the stuff about the Fanim appears to be written by an Inrithi. Are those sections true, or are they the "facts" as would be held by someone within the story itself, rather than the author? If those sections are subjective, why not others? The westeros threads have covered this a lot and I can't summarise their thoughts here, I couldn't do them justice. But that's the general consensus there, and I agree with it.

I think I wrote a longer post about this in the other Bakker thread on these boards but I'm too lazy to go find it.

[King-of-Chains]

It bothers me regardless of whether it's true or not. This type of misdirection belongs in the story itself, not an introduction that recaps a trilogy the reader should have been familliar with. Furthermore, giving this information away just steals the experience from the reader. Part of the glory behind Kellhus's character was wondering whether he was insane or not.

[Yellow]

That question hasn't been answered, despite what the recap says. It's the main reason you won't see a Kellhus POV in the Aspect-Emperor - Bakker wants the reader to continue guessing. It's Moenghus who believes Kellhus is mad, but then we know that the gods and the outside exist, so why does Kellhus have to be mad? Only to a Dunyain must that be true, others can choose differently... and how else would Bakker have introduced the question into that recap and have it in character with the rest of the passage?

I'm of the opinion that any recap in any book is a waste of time. If people don't remember things, that's their problem.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 24 March 2011 - 07:52 PM

[Abyss]

Just finished THE WHITE LUCK WARRIOR. we didn't have a dedicated thread so i re-tasked this one...

SPOILERS SPOILERS
MASSIVE SPOILERS
RIGHT UP TO THE END SPOILERS

There was a lot i liked about this book... but for some reason, like THE JUDGING EYE, it didn't trigger the level of love i have for the first trilogy books.

THE JUDGING EYE was all set up. With the exception of a few moments and the big finish in Cil-Angstridden, there was a lot of plotting and talking and movement and not much else. And while the finale was great, i know i wasn't the only one scratching their head at just wtf actually happened at the end there with Mimara and the chorae and the ghost or demon or big letter W or whatever...

So i had high hopes for WHITE-LUCK WARRIOR. Maybe too high.

On the bright side, the 'what has gone before' sectionat the begiining was probably the clearest explanation of what happened at the end of TJE i've seen yet.

And then off we go.
Walking.

A LOT.

3/4 (arguably 5) of the main storylines - the Slog, the Great Ordeal, and Sorweel - are concerned with moving characters from point A to point B. Sure, events hapen along the way, but at root this is a travelogue moving characters into position for bigger things in the third book. i hope.

The Great Ordeal... i appreciate the scope of what this storyline was, and on a fundamental level it was awesome. Except that most of it was people complaining about how tired, hungry and/or thirsty they were and that gets old. And while the subplot of the one army being destroyed was interesting, it was populated by characters we had never seen before or didn't remember if we did, being Grandee Whazzizface and Lord Saywhut from the last trilo. King Umpaloompa was equally sacrifical. As soon as Bakker started to focus on this army, as opposed to the ones led by Proyas or Saubon, key characters from the first series, or Katyus, Kellhus' son, i knew, without a shadow of doubt, that they were destined to be sranc poo. So when it happend, well, it was big and violent and oh look Bashrag but so what?

I will say that "Now, we eat Sranc." was a brilliant way to end that storyline.

Sorweel.... Sorweel's entire plot line amounts to two things.... 'Wtf does Mud God Face Lady want with me?' and 'Wow i'd really like to tap Kellhus' daughter.'. He's a decent enough narrator and i did like his race to warn the army about the Sranc Ten-Yoke Legion (cool concept), but overall he was more whine than i like.

Speaking of whining.... the Slog of Slogs practically drowned in it. I caught myself skipping entire paragraphs. It had its moments... actually i take that back, the ending was brilliant and i really didn't care for the rest of it. Yawn and yawn and the whole relationship between Achamian and Mimara remains iccy. And what was the point of the skin-spy being there if ultimately all he did was save Mimara... i'm hoping that at least gets explained. Lord Kosoter was fascinating, except that at the crux of the entire Slog, he just sits there while his lackeys, who have been overtly planning his death for months, shoot him in the head. Weak finish... all this time he's been secretly working for Kellhus to get Acca to the Coffers and now he just kicks back and takes a few arrows to the head... if Bakker's point was that having completed his task, Kosoter wanted to die to reach the redemption Kellhgus promised him, than it could have been clearer.

All that aside, Acca and Cleric vs the Wracu was just awesome and made up for a lot. That was a near perfect rendering of two massively powerful magic-users going head to head against a dragon too old and ornery to die.

Acca vs Cleric was equally great and a really well handled ending to Cleric's subplot. With a lovely bit of irony at his ashes ending up back in the pouch for Acca and Mimara. So there was what to love here, albeit only at the end.

Esmenet... Esmi spends entirely too much time angsting about how she's out of her depnth and after a while it grates. I liked Kelmomas and Irny and how the confrontation with Maithanet went down, except that there really wasn't any reason for Irny to try and kill Maitha except that he's nuts and Kelmomas gave him the opportunity. Plus, the fact that Esmi and Maitha both cheerfully overlook how frikkin weird it is that Irny will only do the reading if Kelmomas is there, or trusting Irny who is known bugnuts in the first place, really stretched my suspension of disbelief. I do think kelmomas is a fun character tho', and i totally think his other voice is his brother's, their minds being stuck in one body when they were separated long before Kel killed him.

The titular White Luck Warrior, our semi sort of 5th plotline, well... he didn't do a whole lot except for arguably the most important thing in killing Matha and setting himself up next to Esme. His sequences were somewhat tedious tho'. I'm hoping there's more pay-off to this in the next book.

So, imnsho, a decent installment in the series, worth the read but not the pre-order tpb dollars.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

SPOILERS!SPOILERS

I thought it was better than TJE.

The Slofg was a bit a let down after TJE but had it's moments especially near the end. Sorweel actually became one of my favourite characters after I couldn't stand him previously, although the God-mode parts of the Ordeal didn't do much for me unlike those of the Holy War in PoN. Esmenet was probably the worst, while Kelmomas was crazy as always and of course there's the Inrilitas vs Maithanet part which is probably one of the finest moment of both series. As for our new characters in the book, Malowebi and Dr. Manhattan The White Luck Warrior I liked both of them.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 27 May 2011 - 07:03 PM

[polishgenius]

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERS








I liked the Slog. It was a bit moany, but tense all the way through and never felt like it was marking time - a bit whiny, but not overly so and good revelations plus an epic ending (though not quite as epic as Cil-Aujas).
Esme's moaning grated more, but the event in the New Empire section, and the characters of the children in particular, made that plotline worth it. They all became more interesting, even the daughter with little to do who I felt very sorry for. Plus Maithanet gained depth I never felt he had before. Kel's PoV's were very entertaining, as well, the little psychopath...
The Great Ordeal was well enough written, but unlike the other two threads was very much there just to keep track of where it was. The battles were well written, but unlike the more exciting fights of The Slog, they mostly felt as if they were there simply to give the Ordeal something to do, and apart from the first one, returned more to the history-book style all-seeing eye PoVs from PoN that I liked less. I did like the reveal that Kellhus has (presumably unknowingly, but you never know) sent his children, and Sorweel, into the hands of the consult. It did also contain clues to where the series might ultimately be headed, in the hints dropped about the Absolute- ie, is Kellhus seeking to become the all-god, the unmoved thought, himself?

Part of the problem is that I can't help but compare the Ordeal to the Chain of Dogs and the war with the Pannion Domin, and it doesn't compare yet. On the other hand, the Tolkienite moments don't suffer from that problem - the Breaking of the Skin-Eaters, the conversation with the dragon on the hoard, the spooky living forest... all great. The Tolkien comparisons were obvious in PoN, but being based on a real conflict were fairly background, but in this trilogy Bakker's really unleashed his love for the old master.

Still, I think it's overall the best book in the series so far, although is the smallest step up from the previous.

[Jorram]

Didn't read through your posts thoroughly since I am still reading the book, but at 1/3 of it I am positively certain it totally ROCKS and is a huge leap forward compared to TJE (which was admittedly a leap backwards after the original series).

Here is why:

* A lot more scale and action (they might be walking, but stuff DOES happen while they walk)
* Less introspection. I was really amazed at Pat's and Bakker's own claim that TJE was less introspective than the first holy war series. TJE was chock full of random off-the-point thinking and self-recriminations in the style of (sorry to say) the later malazan installments. TWLW on the other hand delivers leaner philosophy, deeper motivations and more point of views - always a refreshment after TJE which had like four in total.
* THE CONSULT
* The cinematographic bird's eye view battles are back! I so loved them. Skirmishes and real-time one on one battle is a lot more boring. Virtually the only series i've ever loved battles in is Bakker's. Guess i'm a sucker for strategy rather than tactics
* Same for the skimming history narratives - i loved those in the first holy war and quite enjoyed seeing them again (e.g. briefing on the insurgencies and Esmi and Maithanet's reactions to it in about one page).
* More interesting characters. Inrilatas starts out great, we get Fanayal and Malowebi as well
* The WLW passages are awesomely poetic and surreal
* Less Sorweel POV's and he doesn't whine so much. Always a plus.

etc etc

This post has been edited by Jorram: 27 May 2011 - 09:11 PM

[amphibian]

Enormous spoilers ahead, so be warned...

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

And what was the point of the skin-spy being there if ultimately all he did was save Mimara... i'm hoping that at least gets explained.

The skinspy was presumably there to keep an eye on Cleric and Kosoter. Once Akka and Mimara showed up, the mission shifted to having sex with Mimara and then protecting the fetus within Mimara - which I believe is the future No-God.

Quote

there really wasn't any reason for Irny to try and kill Maitha except that he's nuts and Kelmomas gave him the opportunity. Plus, the fact that Esmi and Maitha both cheerfully overlook how frikkin weird it is that Irny will only do the reading if Kelmomas is there, or trusting Irny who is known bugnuts in the first place, really stretched my suspension of disbelief.

Inrilitas may be insane, but he's still a coldly calculating almost-Dunyain. The entire family knows this and Esmenet knows this, as she's interacted with him enough. He purposely created a situation in which there were many, many options in how things could go and all of them would be good for him.

Option 1: He kills Maithanet and Kelmomas. He's happy because... he's insane and wants to kill everyone. Option 2: He kills one of the two. Still happy, but not as deliriously happy. Option 3: He dies. He's happy because he doesn't have to be "chained up and flinging poo Inrilitas" anymore. Option 4: He doesn't get to kill or die, but figures out the truth behind what's going on. Option 5: Some combination of the previous ones.

Option 5 is what happened. I'm still surprised Maithanet didn't kill Kelmomas right after he got loose - he probably could have done so and waltzed right out of the palace and then launched his coup. He'd still have died from the White Luck Warrior doing that invisibility shit, but it'd have been way better for Esmenet.

polishgenius, on 27 May 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

I did like the reveal that Kellhus has (presumably unknowingly, but you never know) sent his children, and Sorweel, into the hands of the consult. It did also contain clues to where the series might ultimately be headed, in the hints dropped about the Absolute- ie, is Kellhus seeking to become the all-god, the unmoved thought, himself?

He didn't give them to the consult; Kelhus gave Sorweel, Serwa and Moenghus to the Non-Men.

As I said before, I think the hints of Kelhus becoming the No-God are misdirections. It seems to be the possibly already dead, but growing fetus within Mimara, which the skinspy is obsessed with protecting, that will be pivotal. Otherwise, there's no point to Mimara being pregnant and Akka going to find the rest of the Dunyain in the shadow of the home of the Consult.

Speculation: Somehow, Sorweel gets the Spear and then has a choice to kill Kelhus or give it to him. His "leveling up" makes sense that way. I don't get the Earth Mother stuff though. It's beyond me at present.

[polishgenius]

*Spoilers* again:

amphibian, on 27 May 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

He didn't give them to the consult; Kelhus gave Sorweel, Serwa and Moenghus to the Non-Men.

The Nonmen are currently in thrall to the consult though- the King they claim to represent is Cleric, remember, and he says that the court has turned to working for them.


Did Soma ever have sex with Mimara? I don't recall that, and every indication is that the child is Akka's. Could well still be the no-god or something to do with, though, given their interest.

[amphibian]

polishgenius, on 27 May 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

The Nonmen are currently in thrall to the consult though- the King they claim to represent is Cleric, remember, and he says that the court has turned to working for them.

The hostages are given over so the Non-Men will turn against the Consult.

Quote

Did Soma ever have sex with Mimara? I don't recall that, and every indication is that the child is Akka's. Could well still be the no-god or something to do with, though, given their interest.

I'm pretty sure Soma did have sex with Mimara. I don't want to go digging into the books to find the exact scene, but I recall one time. It is possible that I'm wrong too.

[Sinisdar Toste]

do i really have to say spoilers?

i truly enjoyed WLW, much more than TJE, because i was always a huge fan of Bakkers style of writing battles, and the sranc battles in this book are absolutely epic. i think one of the most compelling concepts that Bakker develops is his sorcery, and i love how kellhus uses it to deceive the masses into believing in his divinity. not that i believe kellhus is insane. he's too rational to be insane. if he is insane, he's more insane than hitler, stalin, mao, dahmer, manson, nero, alexander and karos invictad put together. but honestly, when kellhus appeared above sakarpus, i almost fell to my knees and worshipped him

going back to sorcery, i thoroughly enjoyed the slog, not only because it featured cleric and akka kicking serious sranc and wracu ass, but because it described several very profound descents into madness, which i always find interesting. as sane people, our representations of insanity cannot help but be incomplete, and i love when authors try to bring themselves as close as possible to true madness. as for why kosoter didn't kill his enemies on the slog, i do think it was because he wanted the salvation kellhus promised him, but agree that this could have been communicated clearer.

for me, the mommen sequences were the least interesting, especially once maitha and esmi basically come out and say that the new empire is merely a tool intended to provide kellhus with the resources he needs to complete the great ordeal. and speaking of the great ordeal, it didn't seem to me like the annihilation of the army of the south was a way of avoiding killing of main characters. granted, maybe placing the army of the south on the farthest north flank was a way of avoiding that very situation, but hearing of their annihilation still sinks dread into my heart regarding the rest of the ordeal's chances.

nonetheless, i do enjoy seeing kelmomas run shit up in that imperial capital. i can see him becoming an aerys the mad king-like figure.

now, it is interesting to hear of other theories regarding the thing called soma, and why he is protecting mimara, but my impression (false as it probably is) was that the thing called soma was somehow, within it's own mind, breaking away from the purpose of the consult. this is most likely a crazy theory, but i called soma out as the skin spy immediately after reading TJE. Doubt me at your own peril!!

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 28 May 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 27 May 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

The Nonmen are currently in thrall to the consult though- the King they claim to represent is Cleric, remember, and he says that the court has turned to working for them.

The hostages are given over so the Non-Men will turn against the Consult.

this was actually one of my favorite twists.

For the record, i think the Non-Men who negotiated with Kellhus were lying and still work for the consult, and Delgawhatchmacallit is a trap.

The Non-Men rep says that they serve Nil-giccas, and we know Cleric is Nil-Giccas, hasn't had anything to do with them for ages, and he tells Akka the other Non-men have turned to the Consult.

Quote

Quote

Did Soma ever have sex with Mimara? I don't recall that, and every indication is that the child is Akka's. Could well still be the no-god or something to do with, though, given their interest.

I'm pretty sure Soma did have sex with Mimara. I don't want to go digging into the books to find the exact scene, but I recall one time. It is possible that I'm wrong too.

I'm pretty sure they never did. Soma was putting the moves on Mimara up until he was revealed to be a Spiderface, but i didn't think they even knocked boots.


Mathanet's revelations about how Kellhus essentially set up the New Empire to fail, knowing that if the Ordeal fails humanity will unite anyways, was perfectly chilling. That last scene between him and Esme before the White-Luck kills his was very cool.


I will say that Bakker's sheer use of language continues to impress for the most part. 'Death comes swirling down.' is just a really nice turn ofphrase the way he uses it.


There's a lot to like about this series, but i'm not loving it the way i did the first set.

[Cause]

Death came swirling down' was great the first time he used it. It was great in the first book when he used it. Now that Im reading the fifth book and he trotted it out again it actually broke my immersion in the story. Its become a bit much.

All in all I was disappointed by the judging eye. Not enough focus on Kellhus or the great ordeal. This could have been forgiven since the books massive focus on Achamian should have been just as good. Instead I felt like fantasy was set back a decade with endless marching on the slog of slogs with almost nothing happening. Every chapter I read I found myself thinking 'get through this so you can enjoy the good stuff later' only it never came. Esmenet must die, Sorweel must die! Angst and emo can only be suffered for so long!

[Abyss]

Cause, on 31 May 2011 - 01:09 AM, said:

...Angst and emo can only be suffered for so long!

I think that hits one of my major problems with the second series so far. The gloom and doom is so unrelenting. There are no characters who are comic releif or even 'loveable scoundrels' to break up the serious. EVERYONE is desperate, depressed, distressed and/or just plain bugnuts crazy.

In the first series there were moments of mirth or bonding or discovery. That's lacking here.

And yes, it's called 'The Great Ordeal' for a reason, but that shouldn't describe reading it.

I exaggerate... there are moments of sheer awesome, it's just that the rest of the story is so very very grim.

[Pig Iron]

Just read it. Very very good. Thought the Sranc battles awe inspring. Something happened in TWLW to make me really interested in the characters.

Kellhus ultimate aim is becoming a thriller, especially since I cant stop wondering about the authors position. Nietzchean uber-mensch so beloved of most fantasy readers, madman or something else? Saving the world? Ascending? Both too simple. Given that the authors premise seems to be a kind of extreme rationalism, the strange and intriguing morality and damnation stuff becomes very interesting. Kelhus could be out to break whatever upholds that mechanism, saving men and consult alike. This could explain the opposition of The Hundred.

Kelhus has probably set up his own eventual downfall (lots and lots of parallells with Dune in this series) - Akka? He probably counted on Esme and Maitha to join forces eventually. TWLW might be a problem for him though, as pure chance could be his cryptonite.

Well loose thoughts, just had to vent. Great series.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 07 June 2011 - 08:30 PM

[amphibian]

Pig Iron, on 07 June 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

He probably counted on Esme and Maitha to join forces eventually.

He does not care what happens to the Empire. If the Great Ordeal fails, then the world is doomed in Kelhus's mind. What happens in the Empire is irrelevant now that the supply chain has been outdistanced.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 07 June 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

Pig Iron, on 07 June 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

He probably counted on Esme and Maitha to join forces eventually.

He does not care what happens to the Empire. If the Great Ordeal fails, then the world is doomed in Kelhus's mind. What happens in the Empire is irrelevant now that the supply chain has been outdistanced.

Not quite how i read it....

My take based on Maitha's chat with Esme, was that the New Empire served its purpose in allowing him to assemble the Great Ordeal. If, however, the Ordeal fails, the No-God arises, babies start being stillborn and, as happened the last time, Mankind will unite to oppose the No-God. It has no choice.

So it's not that the world is doomed if the Ordeal fails, rather, the world is going to get onside pretty damn quick if the Ordeal fails. In that respect, once the Ordeal was off and rolling, the New Empire became irrelevant.

[Pig Iron]

Hes probably seen many permutatioms of what happens in the Empire, and we dont know what he wants yet. This is the Kwisatx-Haderach-whatever a la Dune were talking about. The Thousandfold Thought gotta be one hell of a mentat-trance.

[Jorram]

Finally finished the book and totally in love with it
I'm using Abyss' first post as reference for my musings

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

There was a lot i liked about this book... but for some reason, like THE JUDGING EYE, it didn't trigger the level of love i have for the first trilogy books.

At the end, I came to think this was probably the best of all the five books up to this point. Simply for the sheer amount of stuff happening, it goes abreast The Warrior Prophet (arguably the best installment in the first series). The conclusions to (almost) all of the plotlines were unbelievably satisfactory (especially considering this was one of the weakest point in TJE) and some of them were epic enough to step near the ending of TTT (by far the awesomest passage of the entire series).

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

And then off we go.
Walking.

A LOT.

3/4 (arguably 5) of the main storylines - the Slog, the Great Ordeal, and Sorweel - are concerned with moving characters from point A to point B. Sure, events hapen along the way, but at root this is a travelogue moving characters into position for bigger things in the third book. i hope.

For some reason I didn't get this feeling, although plot-wise it does happen (the book mimics the structure of TWP to an extent). The viewpoints were well varied and the situations intriguing enough so that one just didn't get bored with questing here and there. Probably the only plotline I found suffering in this regards were the Scalpoi ones, which was in general the weakest link, what with the incessant whining of particular characters.

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

The Great Ordeal... i appreciate the scope of what this storyline was, and on a fundamental level it was awesome. Except that most of it was people complaining about how tired, hungry and/or thirsty they were and that gets old. And while the subplot of the one army being destroyed was interesting, it was populated by characters we had never seen before or didn't remember if we did, being Grandee Whazzizface and Lord Saywhut from the last trilo. King Umpaloompa was equally sacrifical. As soon as Bakker started to focus on this army, as opposed to the ones led by Proyas or Saubon, key characters from the first series, or Katyus, Kellhus' son, i knew, without a shadow of doubt, that they were destined to be sranc poo. So when it happend, well, it was big and violent and oh look Bashrag but so what?

I will say that "Now, we eat Sranc." was a brilliant way to end that storyline.

I thought the Great Ordeal line the one most obvious and vastest improvement over TJE. Whereas the latter featured mostly Sorweel's self-pity in these passages, in TWLW Sorweel has {a} far less screen time {b} balls. We got the bird-eye view battles back (YAY!), we got the awesome depictions of the diversity of the nations comprising the ordeal (a soft spot for Bakker IMO), we got more insight into the characters of Zsoronga, Serwa and Moenghus (all of which were incredibly nice to read about) and last but not least, we got far more and far cooler Kellhus than in TJE! I was practically squirming with delight when reading the Nonman embassy scene. All the exchanges and mindfuck in the scenes with Proyas was priceless as well. And perhaps the awesomest thing is that up to this point Bakker REALLY manages to keep Kellhus a total mystery to the reader. I find that particularly thrilling.

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

Speaking of whining.... the Slog of Slogs practically drowned in it. I caught myself skipping entire paragraphs. It had its moments... actually i take that back, the ending was brilliant and i really didn't care for the rest of it. Yawn and yawn and the whole relationship between Achamian and Mimara remains iccy. And what was the point of the skin-spy being there if ultimately all he did was save Mimara... i'm hoping that at least gets explained. Lord Kosoter was fascinating, except that at the crux of the entire Slog, he just sits there while his lackeys, who have been overtly planning his death for months, shoot him in the head. Weak finish... all this time he's been secretly working for Kellhus to get Acca to the Coffers and now he just kicks back and takes a few arrows to the head... if Bakker's point was that having completed his task, Kosoter wanted to die to reach the redemption Kellhgus promised him, than it could have been clearer.

Agreed, mostly. Kosoter's death was lame. I came to like Mimara better than the first book. I was annoyed a bit at the entire Qirri subplot and everybody's conscious reluctance to give it up and neither could I fathom Cleric's motives in keeping drugging them. The skinspy was a mystery, one theory about him revolves around the Consult guy (Aurang again?) saying sth about respecting "false prophecies", another is maybe about the Judging Eye and its possible use to the Consult; and there's also the possibility this one skin-spy is an anomaly with a soul of his own (there are precedents mentioned by Maithanet on Nron back in TTT).

I don't at all think the child will be the No-God in any conceivable manner. And the skinspy and Mimara definitely didnt sleep together. For most of their exchange (and certainly after she learned not to fear him) he was a woman and wore her own face, not Soma's.

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

All that aside, Acca and Cleric vs the Wracu was just awesome and made up for a lot. That was a near perfect rendering of two massively powerful magic-users going head to head against a dragon too old and ornery to die.

Acca vs Cleric was equally great and a really well handled ending to Cleric's subplot. With a lovely bit of irony at his ashes ending up back in the pouch for Acca and Mimara. So there was what to love here, albeit only at the end.

Yeah, the ending more than made up for this entire plot and then of course the Ishual passage was like @_@ ....

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

Esmenet... Esmi spends entirely too much time angsting about how she's out of her depnth and after a while it grates. I liked Kelmomas and Irny and how the confrontation with Maithanet went down, except that there really wasn't any reason for Irny to try and kill Maitha except that he's nuts and Kelmomas gave him the opportunity. Plus, the fact that Esmi and Maitha both cheerfully overlook how frikkin weird it is that Irny will only do the reading if Kelmomas is there, or trusting Irny who is known bugnuts in the first place, really stretched my suspension of disbelief. I do think kelmomas is a fun character tho', and i totally think his other voice is his brother's, their minds being stuck in one body when they were separated long before Kel killed him.

That is spelled out black on white numerous times - as soon as immediately after the death of Samarmas, the voice says "What took you so long to kill me?" and then a few other times it's pretty obvious. Inrilatas also says it when he scrutinizes Kelmomas.

Personally I didn't like Kelmomas. He tends to make annoying stuff happen to likeable characters and I don't like it, especially given how absurd his motivation is (he's kinda like a really evil Stewie from Family Guy).

Nevertheless, I though the Three Seas passages the best part of the book. Esmi DID indeed whine a bit at the start, but as soon as Inrilatas showed up, this subplot was simply destined for greatness. Such a GREAT pity it saw two of the awesomest characters to date (said Inrilatas and of course you-know-who) dead. I was sincerely heartbroken at the ending. For once I thought Bakker would dispense with the negativity and make something nice and unpredictable happen (as in Esmi and Maithanet really coming to terms together and verybody living happily ever after) and then all went downhill. Damn. The worst thing is that unlike Cleric's demise, what happened at Momemn seemed less obviously inevitable and more whimsical than not, which is annoying in a very Trull/Errant way

Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

The titular White Luck Warrior, our semi sort of 5th plotline, well... he didn't do a whole lot except for arguably the most important thing in killing Matha and setting himself up next to Esme. His sequences were somewhat tedious tho'. I'm hoping there's more pay-off to this in the next book.

So, imnsho, a decent installment in the series, worth the read but not the pre-order tpb dollars.

Really, tedious??? I was totally bewitched by the awesome style and poetry of his passages and the Dr Manhattan feeling all around it (thanks to whoever coined the comparison, it's totally accurate) was a really nice innovation for a fantasy novel. Very Gene Wolfe-ish. I liked the whole idea of the world just bending to his needs because his needs are the very course of events.

I also liked a lot Fanayal's passages. Malowebi was a very likeable character, and of course every insight into Zeum is very welcome, although at this point we already have three Zeumi featuring quite a bit in the story. I am SO waiting for a Xiuhianni to show up.

Also wonder why the Scylvendi didn't rise against the Ordeal, granted that they still worship the No-God (for some reason I never quite understood).

About Ishterebinth - despite what Cleric said, the Embassy didn't have the air of a trap and it doesn't make a lot of sense either. If I were the Nonmen, I turned to serve the Consult and I knew shit about the Aspect-Emperor, I wouldn't invite HIS children of all people at my place.

I think Cleric is simply confused and doesn't know shit so they kind of have to cover up for him, the way the Liosan had fashioned another Protector after Osserc just kinda left. There WOULD have been at least some hint if the Nonmen were really treacherous. Bakker does that.

oh and for the record I think Abyss' interpretation of Maithanet's insight into Kellhus' motives is correct. He just figured it doesn't really matter what happens to the Empire. It had outlived its purpose, as had Esmenet and Maithanet.

"Love is for lesser souls".
Pure awesomeness!

This post has been edited by Jorram: 10 June 2011 - 06:57 AM

[Abyss]

Jorram, on 09 June 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

... neither could I fathom Cleric's motives in keeping drugging them.

It was all part of Cleric's ongoing 'forge a deep connection with mortals and then kill them so i can mourn them and feel something for ten minutes or so' thing. Which was explained and re-explained notwithstanding that Acca thought he could get around it right until the very end.

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...there's also the possibility this one skin-spy is an anomaly with a soul of his own (there are precedents mentioned by Maithanet on Nron back in TTT)....

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it established early in TJE that skinspies with souls could use the cants?
While back in TTT we learned via Cnauir's escorts that after a period of time skinspies just start acting on their own?
Or am i mixing up two separate things?

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Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

... I do think kelmomas is a fun character tho', and i totally think his other voice is his brother's, their minds being stuck in one body when they were separated long before Kel killed him.

That is spelled out black on white numerous times - as soon as immediately after the death of Samarmas, the voice says "What took you so long to kill me?" and then a few other times it's pretty obvious. Inrilatas also says it when he scrutinizes Kelmomas.

Irny comments on Kel hearing other voices, but whether that's actually Sal, or just Kel's insanity manifesting as a split personality, is wide open.

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Personally I didn't like Kelmomas. ...he's kinda like a really evil Stewie from Family Guy).

Thank you. from now on this is exactly how i will visualize him.

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Abyss, on 27 May 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

The titular White Luck Warrior, our semi sort of 5th plotline, well... His sequences were somewhat tedious tho'. I'm hoping there's more pay-off to this in the next book.

So, imnsho, a decent installment in the series, worth the read but not the pre-order tpb dollars.

Really, tedious??? I was totally bewitched by the awesome style and poetry of his passages and the Dr Manhattan feeling all around it (thanks to whoever coined the comparison, it's totally accurate) was a really nice innovation for a fantasy novel. Very Gene Wolfe-ish. I liked the whole idea of the world just bending to his needs because his needs are the very course of events.

I liked the concept but the execution was tedious. I don't think we needed as many vague iterations of 'he sat and watched himself walk away while he walked up and watched himself sit' as we got, versus some actual clarity about his relationship to MudFace goddess and why exactly the book is titled after him.

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Also wonder why the Scylvendi didn't rise against the Ordeal, granted that they still worship the No-God (for some reason I never quite understood).

Heavily implid that they were biding their time waiting to attack the Empire in the Ordeal's absence.

Also not clear that they do in fact still worship the No-God. If Cnaiur taught us anything it was that the Scylvendi have evolved a VERY complex belief system since the No-God went poof the first time.

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... If I were the Nonmen, I turned to serve the Consult and I knew shit about the Aspect-Emperor, I wouldn't invite HIS children of all people at my place.

Or on the other hand, that's EXACTLY who you want as hostages. While Moe isn't valuable, not being Kellhus' actual child, the Grand Mommy of the Sisterhood is pretty damn valuable even before you consider that she's Kellhus' only kid who is relatively sane and has the Gnosis. we learned back in TTT that having kids is actually fairly important to Dunyain.

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I think Cleric is simply confused and doesn't know shit so they kind of have to cover up for him, the way the Liosan had fashioned another Protector after Osserc just kinda left. There WOULD have been at least some hint if the Nonmen were really treacherous. Bakker does that.

I'd argue that Cleric's comment is exactly that hint. Notice the Nonmen didn't exactly say 'Our king is off being a scalphunter but if he were here he'd be all over this ordeal thing, really. For sure.'.