[Therion]

I just finished TWLW and was looking for some threads to *vent* (nah, I liked it, though I agree about the excessive doom and gloom)... and to throw out a theory regarding Akka & Mimara's offspring (and feel free to laud me when it turns out to be right ).

I don't think the child is the No-God, but might instead be the promised in the Celmoman Prophecy, although the Prophecy is somewhat tricky. Celmomas II said an Anasurimbor will return when the Second Apocalypse comes. IIRC, the PoN deliberately left it open whether this means that the referred to Anasurimbor will actually be the one to defeat the No-God (the last time, it was Seswatha and one of the Southern kings, albeit using the Heron Spear which Nau-Cayuti had retrieved). If an Anasurimbor will be the one to defeat the No-God, it might also not be Anasurimbor *Kellhus*. From the bunch of mostly insane kids, none really strikes me as heroic, although that may not necessarily be required. However, the Celmoman Prophecy leaves open whether the person in question is actually an Anasurimbor *by blood* - for all intents and purposes, Mimara is often referred to as Anasurimbor Mimara, so this could refer to her or her child with Akka. I also believe that Bakker is drawing parallels - maybe to mislead us, though - between the Akka & Mimara situation and the flashbacks to Seswatha. It is strongly implied that Nau-Cayuti, the tragic - but instrumental - hero, was actually the son of Seswatha, and that reinforces my suspicion that the unborn child will be important for the "good" guys.

(I hope that was halfway coherent given that it's past 3am over here ).

BTW - theories regarding Meppa? Is he an amnesiac Moenghus (Kellhus' daddy - I don't quite recall whether his death left room for speculation)? Or Cnaiur? Or is the whole amnesia a red herring, and we haven't actually met him before?

[kcf]

I'lll go ahead and add the excerpt of my review I posted in the reviews subforum. Bakker responded to it on his blog. His thoughts were interesting and he indicated not having a problem with and complimented me in the process. But, the commenters over there disagreed with my review quite a bit (no real surprise there). Then a few got a bit nasty with personal insults (shouldn't be a surprise since this is the internet and all). Anyway, it was interesting since generally you write a review and not much of interest happens after that - this time it got a bit interesting.



I finished up my review of The White-Luck Warrior. In short, I was quite disappointed. Excerpt below:

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In The Judging Eye Bakker set out to write a much more accessible book than those in The Prince of Nothing Trilogy – a book that could be enjoyed on a more surficial level without sacrificing the deeper, intellectual and philosophical journey. I felt that The Judging Eye was a huge success in this approach. So I was surprised and dismayed that Bakker chose to not write The White-Luck Warrior in the same style – there is almost nothing accessible about it. The style is dense, the language is very technical and philosophical and there is an over-reliance on referencing the history and long-dead peoples of the world (and their long, unpronounceable names). Generally this makes for a hard, slow slog of a read that can only be stomached in short doses and fails to create any connection between the reader and the book.

The lack of accessibility is made worse by the overwhelming negativity of the book. Sure, this is the second book of trilogy – there should be despair and a general lack of hope. But Bakker takes this several orders of magnitude further. I cannot and will not pretend to understand much of the philosophical underpinnings of Bakker’s writing, but I will say that it doesn’t present humanity in a positive light. In combination with a harsh, caste society under the thrall of Kellhus, it becomes downright unbearable. Even the few attempts at dark humor Bakker attempted in The Judging Eye are lacking, leaving nothing hopeful to grasp. I understand this is largely the point, but again, it makes for hard, uninspired reading.

If you take the time to read an interview with Bakker or (god help you) read his blog, then you’ll get an impression of Bakker being rather unsympathetic towards readers who do not take the time and mental effort to read into the philosophical underpinnings of his books. After all, that is the point of them. He is also well aware that the choices he makes in his writing style will largely be inaccessible. Considering these, I must admit that I don’t have the time or inclination to read as deeply into this book as necessary (and quite possibly not the intellectual acumen).
Full Review

[amphibian]

KCF, I greatly disagreed with your review of White Luck Warrior. The sense I got from the review is that your primary criticism is that Bakker's language choices didn't mesh with you. In terms of language and philosophical embedding, I do not think that Bakker wrote WLW in a noticeably different fashion than how he wrote The Judging Eye. I think perhaps the short bursts of reading combined with your busy real world life and a lack of re-read/immersion in the Second Apocalypse world led to you not connecting with the book on a level similar to that which you did with JE.

Yes, WLW is grim. However, I found the Slog to be a slow-burning horror storyline that was great fun to read, the Great Ordeal itself changed from a repeat of the desert hardships the crusaders suffered in The Warrior-Prophet into something more determined, much stronger and more able to deal with the titanic struggle the Consult will surely put up and that what Kelhus left behind with his family and the dissolving Empire was well-written and fit the story.

The names, the histories and the concepts weren't introduced out of thin air. Everything here - except for the WLW and the Yatwerian cult - built upon what had gone before. I think that the next book will have many more new concepts, characters and storylines than WLW. I think real life and the time/mental distance between books for you caused this part of WLW to go a bit unappreciated in your review.

kcf, on 11 July 2011 - 04:39 PM, said:

If you take the time to read an interview with Bakker or (god help you) read his blog, then you’ll get an impression of Bakker being rather unsympathetic towards readers who do not take the time and mental effort to read into the philosophical underpinnings of his books. After all, that is the point of them. He is also well aware that the choices he makes in his writing style will largely be inaccessible.

To me, Bakker's blog makes me envision him as a complete a-hole who I would never want to meet in real life. I've said that before elsewhere and I'll say it again.

I agree with you that he has several times expressed an attitude of dismissal and unfriendliness towards those who criticize or dismiss his work unless they fully engage him in the philosophical underpinnings to the Second Apocalypse books. However, I do think his stance is somewhat justified in that many readers who praise, criticize or dismiss his works understand little to nothing of what he's attempting to do (with varying degrees of success). I think he's got some artistic brotherhood thing going on with the Terence Malick/Tree of Life kerfluffle, but it doesn't give him license to be an a-hole about it. Your post did make him reconsider his interview approaches and that's a good thing for him and for readers of his books.

I do think that Bakker's a bit sexist, that his writing often goes beyond playing with philosophical constructs/ideas into darker, more personal territory and that sometimes he can lose the reader in the philosophical stuff and in the constant self-doubt/grimness. He's a bit like Donaldson in that respect.

[Use Of Weapons]

I, too, didn't get the linguistic problems that you cite in your review excerpt above. In particular, I find Bakker's naming to be a source of great clarity, and I have no problem pronouncing them. In fact, while I am normally not someone who cares to sound out actual pronunciations in invented names and naming systems (save my own), BAkker's approach actually both encourages this and provides the tools to do so successfuly, with the use of diacritical marks.

[Abyss]

I do give Bakker huge props for being able to be consistent in his names, in that names from the same country/state/culture/whatever do send to be similar in construction.

Keeping track of them all is a huge headache, but at least one can sort of connect the dots of who is from the same place as whom.

[Jorram]

Personally, I thought the WLW eons ahead of TJE. Where the latter seems hollow, narrow-scoped and way too full of selfpity and malazanish introspections, the WLW felt much more dense with action, much more epic, much more intriguing and much deeper.

I've never really understood the camp of people who think TJE more accessible than the PoN books. The PoN were immersing, totally gripping and immensely layered. TJE lacked essentially everything that made PoN so awesome, except for a moot feeling of relating to the characters we used to love before. It was a slow read, verging on the boring, and worstly, nothing practically happened.

I had great fears that TWLW would spell out the end of hopes for this series, too, and I was more than delighted to have a book easily on par with the best of PoN and totally not in the style of TJE.

I am therefore a bit of the exact opposite opinion than kcf

i also honestly never understood all the accusations of "too much philosophy" & "too dark", especially on a Malazan forum. It's a bit bleak on the characters but then again so is the universally loved Martin, isn't he? Too much philosophy? Really?

the accusations of sexism are also rather absurd. This is fictional work it's not like Bakker is a mysoginist in life or something. Besides, I never found the book to be any sexist anyway. For sure medieval society on Earth was more sexist by a magnitude.

[Jorram]

Sorry for the doubleposting but to also keep theoritizing...

Abyss, on 08 July 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

It was all part of Cleric's ongoing 'forge a deep connection with mortals and then kill them so i can mourn them and feel something for ten minutes or so' thing. Which was explained and re-explained notwithstanding that Acca thought he could get around it right until the very end.

Yah, i gather he's just crazy as ****.

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Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it established early in TJE that skinspies with souls could use the cants?
While back in TTT we learned via Cnauir's escorts that after a period of time skinspies just start acting on their own?

i guess both are mentioned (and the skinspy in the mandate could probably use cants) but I'm not sure what are you getting at. How does this relate to Soma and his behavior towards Mimara? Anyway, he was clearly ordered to protect her, too, but the funny thing is the first time he protected her was BEFORE the order, so he kind of did it on his own. Which might be a consequence of his logical assumptions about her importance, rather than any soul-fulness, anyway.

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Irny comments on Kel hearing other voices, but whether that's actually Sal, or just Kel's insanity manifesting as a split personality, is wide open.

While it IS possible that the voice is somebody else's (Ajokli?) and is kind of impersonating Sammy, Kelmomas clearly thinks it's Sammy. There are at least five instances where this is spoken out and Inrilatas might not understand the true nature of the voice but is totally capable of understanding the way Kel perceives the voice.

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I liked the concept but the execution was tedious. I don't think we needed as many vague iterations of 'he sat and watched himself walk away while he walked up and watched himself sit' as we got, versus some actual clarity about his relationship to MudFace goddess and why exactly the book is titled after him.

Spelled out like this, I'm more inclined to agree. Still, he had only like, what, three scenes? Not quite enough to bore me taking into account that i spent the first one trying to figure out what the hell is happening.

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Heavily implid that they were biding their time waiting to attack the Empire in the Ordeal's absence.

Also not clear that they do in fact still worship the No-God. If Cnaiur taught us anything it was that the Scylvendi have evolved a VERY complex belief system since the No-God went poof the first time.

It's only said that they went quiet. It might be they're biding their time, it might be they plan to march north, it might be a lot of things really, though your statement is probably still the most likely.

They do still worship him - Cnaiur says so in his conversations with Proyas and Kellhus. They are just also bound by a complex system of traditions that keep their identity for the lack of written history.

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Or on the other hand, that's EXACTLY who you want as hostages. While Moe isn't valuable, not being Kellhus' actual child, the Grand Mommy of the Sisterhood is pretty damn valuable even before you consider that she's Kellhus' only kid who is relatively sane and has the Gnosis. we learned back in TTT that having kids is actually fairly important to Dunyain.

Fair point! I'd rep you if i could

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I think Cleric is simply confused and doesn't know shit so they kind of have to cover up for him, the way the Liosan had fashioned another Protector after Osserc just kinda left. There WOULD have been at least some hint if the Nonmen were really treacherous. Bakker does that.

I'd argue that Cleric's comment is exactly that hint. Notice the Nonmen didn't exactly say 'Our king is off being a scalphunter but if he were here he'd be all over this ordeal thing, really. For sure.'.

Well thats hardly a hint, given it's like shouting it out
Anyway, while the Nonman MIGHT really be treacherous, I am of opinion that Kellhus knows about it. Remember, he set up Kosoter's party and his man (back in TJE prologue) sees Cleric there. There is simply no way Kellhus wouldn't know about the entire 'Nil'giccas is fooling around' thing. Kosoter is his devout follower and he was also Cleric's book.

So i think he wants Serwa to keep an eye on the nonmen and see whats going for real. He probably knows something is not right, because he knows NG is not there and they refer to him. Then again he MIGHT be thinking it's natural for them to try and cover up for him.

Personally i cant wait to see what happens in Ishterebinth

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Jorram, on 13 July 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

S

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I think Cleric is simply confused and doesn't know shit so they kind of have to cover up for him, the way the Liosan had fashioned another Protector after Osserc just kinda left. There WOULD have been at least some hint if the Nonmen were really treacherous. Bakker does that.

I'd argue that Cleric's comment is exactly that hint. Notice the Nonmen didn't exactly say 'Our king is off being a scalphunter but if he were here he'd be all over this ordeal thing, really. For sure.'.

Well thats hardly a hint, given it's like shouting it out
Anyway, while the Nonman MIGHT really be treacherous, I am of opinion that Kellhus knows about it. Remember, he set up Kosoter's party and his man (back in TJE prologue) sees Cleric there. There is simply no way Kellhus wouldn't know about the entire 'Nil'giccas is fooling around' thing. Kosoter is his devout follower and he was also Cleric's book.

Kellhus probably knows that Kosoter is hanging around with an incredibly powerful Nonman as his pet but that doesn't mean he and Kosoter know he's Nil'giccas. Heck,Cleric himself didn't seem to know who he was until Mimara helped him remember. For all Kellhus and Kosoter know he could be Mekeritrig,or Nin'janjin or Sul'jihot or any other powerful Nonman we have heard about.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Trying to avoid spoilers, but I got this book a little bit ago and was planning on starting it. I'm pretty sure I remember what happened in The Judging Eye, but does anyone know where I could get a good summary of it? At least so I can remember where all the characters left off.

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 13 July 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

Trying to avoid spoilers, but I got this book a little bit ago and was planning on starting it. I'm pretty sure I remember what happened in The Judging Eye, but does anyone know where I could get a good summary of it? At least so I can remember where all the characters left off.

First three pages or so of WHITE have an excellent summary of the entire series to date, including TJE.

[pat5150]

Part two of our Bakker interview here.

Enjoy!

Patrick

[Sinisdar Toste]

wow, he really drops a huge bomb in that interview. i completely forgot that chorae were created with the aporos, but then RSB just goes and mentions,

Spoiler

'oh, by the way, the tusk was carved by the inchoroi. just thought you should know.'

[Jorram]

Was just about to post it but Pat has already done it himself AWESOME stuff ><

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Sinisdar Toste, on 26 July 2011 - 02:52 AM, said:

wow, he really drops a huge bomb in that interview. i completely forgot that chorae were created with the aporos, but then RSB just goes and mentions,

Spoiler

'oh, by the way, the tusk was carved by the inchoroi. just thought you should know.'

I believe there were heavy implications for that but yeah,it's a pretty big spoiler. But then, Bakker has been known to have done it in the past.

EDIT:

Spoiler

And anyway it seems that the only addition the Inchoroi made to Man's previous beliefs was to go and exterminate the Nonmen

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 26 July 2011 - 07:42 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 26 July 2011 - 07:36 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 26 July 2011 - 02:52 AM, said:

wow, he really drops a huge bomb in that interview. i completely forgot that chorae were created with the aporos, but then RSB just goes and mentions,

Spoiler

'oh, by the way, the tusk was carved by the inchoroi. just thought you should know.'

I believe there were heavy implications for that but yeah,it's a pretty big spoiler. But then, Bakker has been known to have done it in the past.

EDIT:

Spoiler

And anyway it seems that the only addition the Inchoroi made to Man's previous beliefs was to go and exterminate the Nonmen

yeah, there is certainly enough in the encyclopedia of TT to suggest that the tusk may have sinister origins. but i didn't read it that they only added the end part.

Spoiler

when Bakker says "they carved it with their most precious laws" or w.e, i'm pretty sure that he's talking about the inchoroi. and that the inchoroi carved the whole thing and then gave it to the men of Eanna, posing as gods. if this is the case, the implications are mind-boggling

edit: though now i reread that bit of the interview, it seems more ambiguous. Here`s the full quote:

Spoiler

"They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’"

Their hallowed laws and most revered stories... but who is 'they'?

dammit language! y u no make clear meanings?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 27 July 2011 - 12:20 AM

[Mentalist]

finally got a chance to really get into this book and finish it.

prior to reading it, I've re-read TJE, and i'm also currently 2 chapters into "the Warrior-prophet", since PoN became my "read in bus on the way to work" books

I've generally liked it, getting past the doom and gloom. Sorweel has some great character development, and i've generally enjoyed the epic scope of the book, esp with the few Fanayal scenes we got.

I am, however, constantly perplexed by Bakker. and here's why. Although I have liked PoN, I have hated Kellhus. I've hated him always. And the Aspect-Emperor books, with their additional metaphysical implications (the convo b/w Meppa and priestess; Nonmen worshipping the spaces b/w shards of god, etc) just makes the whole series even more confusing. there is absolutely no indication who's wrong and who's right. while this is usually refreshing, in this particular series it's irritating, since it opens a possibility that Kellhus may actually be right. and since I want him to die painfully, that is highly irritating.

also, I agree on the "Meppa=Moenghus" crazy theory, it was the very first thing to pop into my head as well after he was introduced.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

One problem with the Meppa/Mohengus theory is that Mohengus is a Norsirai while Meppa is described as darkskinned.

Also,according to Kellhus, Mohengus sucked at the Psuche, while Meppa is quite powerful.

[Mentalist]

moenghus sucked as Psukhe, b/c it involved emotions. which the Dunyain don't have.

if we go with Moenghus forgetting his conditioning, though........

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Mentalist, on 22 August 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

moenghus sucked as Psukhe, b/c it involved emotions. which the Dunyain don't have.

if we go with Moenghus forgetting his conditioning, though........

Ok, that's an interesting thought. Still doesn't explain the race lift,however.

[amphibian]

Reviving this to say that despite re-reads, I still haven't been able to piece together who Meppa is, if he's a character that has appeared before.

Also, I yield on the Mimara/skinspy sex. The writing is fairly clear that Mimara and Achamanian view it to be Akka's Schroedinger's fetus in there.

It's an odd decision for Bakker to leave the White Luck Warrior at Esmenet's side. He's charged with killing Kelhus, I think, so either he has to follow the Great Ordeal or he believes that Kelhus will come back to Momenn.

Also, why spend time with Fanayal, Meppa and the revivified hag? So many weird balls being juggled here, especially with the demon/thing Aurang featuring in the next book.