[blackzoid]

SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ok, I've finished reading it last night.

A fantastic book. No, its not perfect (but what could be?), but compared to many other endings (Battlestar, Lost, Dark Tower, Stargate etc) its very very very good. Unlike Battlestar/Lost it doesn't invalidate itself at the last moment. Instead it strengthens what came before. I loved it. I don't know how I feel about everything just yet. Maybe I will have to wait for a reread to completely analyse it.


Is it everything I expected? I'm not sure. I'm wondering that in my mind, it was built up so much that maybe nothing SE could write down could possibly deliver on my expectations. (I worry that perhaps I am also building up ICE's Assail book too much as well). Perhaps I should wait longer to digest, but what the hell. here is my thoughts on the book and some of its themes.



1: Compassion.

1.1 The Crippled God
Some people will complain about the Crippled God's turnaround in character, but I think it was aboslutely necessary. He was dragged unwilling onto the world and cruelly chained against his will. Yes, he delivered pain to K'rul and Burn, but that was not his fault. What was his fault was his use of the Pannion domin and the Tiste Edur. But crucially, both things happened before the creation of the House of Chains and (I may be
reading this wrong) it was that that opened the Crippled god's eyes trully to his followers on Wu (not his alien followers in the Jade slashes). He realised that what he was doing was just lashing out in his pain, but because of the House of Chains he was forced to directly confront his worshippers aS no other god on the planet could. (I guess because as a chained god, he could not hide from his worshippers eyes. Think this is expanded upon in the italic Crippled God pov sections) So he changed for the better as a result of that. Ya, its not forgiveness for the Pannion Domin and the Tiste Edur, but its understanding. He was never an intrinsic evil dark lord god such as Morgoth. Originally he was the victim. I don't fully understand what happened at the end, but I believe that the Crippled god had become almost fully mortal (with all his power), but needed to be killed to ascend to rejoin his followers. What will be his thoughts be on Cotillion's actions I wonder? Was Cotillion's actions necessary? Its an echo of what happened to Dancer and Kellenved (and Itkovian and Trake too), that in order to ascend to some higher plane (whether god or otherwise), you have to die first. I don't know. We did see some beam of green light go skyward after all.

1.2 Korabas
This was heartbreaking. A destructive force, that was necessary for K'rul's system of warrens to work. Before the warrens were formed, there was the magic of Holds and Korabas was either a normal dragon or just non-exitant. I'm not sure. But when k'rul forced his bargain with the Eleint, it was necessary to have an opposing force. That was Korabas. An unwanted thing. No different than the Snake really. And she wanted to create, not destroy. Seeing Silchas and Tulas Shorn fight for her, instead of against her was perfect. I hope that the Tiste Andii Eleint (Nimander and co) and Silannh did so as well. I'm not sure if Korabas actually wanted to be trapped at the end, or what actually happened after she broke the Cripple God's chains, but the jade hands of Heboric now protect her. Hopefully she's not in agony any more.


1.3 The Snake
Ya, Nothing to be said here. The army sees the children. do they give their water away? The pragmatic thing is to say no. But they have to take them in. otherwise, whats the point of any of what they do. Fantastic scene.

1.4 Blistig
He survived. Thank God. I was worried that SE decided to destroy his character on a whim, but on a series reread, I did see signs of him not being as respected as much in RG. However, unlike the Shield Anvil of the Wolves, he was always upfront with his anger (aside from knifing Pores of course!). I'm glad he survived. Really, how different was he to to Korabas, the Crippled God, the Snake? Thrust into a situation in which he had no power over, at his heart he just wanted to live. I hope that he was not killed by his own troops afterwards.

1.5 Karsa and Munung.
I hated you at first Karsa. I absolutedly despised you. I so wanted you to die in so many ways. Even after HoC/TBH. You were/are a childish immature person with simplistic notions of how the world really is. You advocate a policy of genocide that is no different to what the Pannion Domin tried (bar the cannibalism) But you grew on me throughout TtH as you finally started to learn to accept humility. Thank you SE for that scene with the leper. I can accept that as the final arc of Karsa. it works.

2: The past, and learning from it.

2.1 Icarium.
Ah SE, you sly dog. What really happens at the end? Icarium has always been I think the cipher for the old saying "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". Is Icarium remembering everything? I don't think so. In fact I don't think he remembers Mappo at all. What happens is that I think, he now has the ability to form memories. His quest to remember his past was always pointless because he could not retain those memories he rediscovered. His true journey was to enable him to restart his life from day 0. Ever since he activated the machine in Letheras and since the Throne of the KCCM Root, he has been in flux. Now I think he can remember new things he comes across. But his past is still gone. So he will never remember Mappo. Thats my interpretation. Of course I could be wrong. No spoilers, but it reminds me of the ending of Inception last year. Ambigious. But hopeful.

2.2 The T'lan imass and the Jaghut.
Thank You SE! I have been waiting for the end of their war for a while. Finally there was respect between them. And to see the KCCM and the Teblor (were the Teblor on that continent not called Tarthenal? No matter, its a minor detail) get involved as well. Fantastic! The Elder races (except for those Assail bastards) have learned from humans and did the right thing. Although the Jaghut had no need, as they had done the right thing throughout their history (with the exception of the Tyrants of course). I'm thinking that hopefully Tool can force the other T'lan Imass to see. Silverfox, may be commanding Kron and his clan, but she has vague memories of the
past, not actual memories like Tool.

2.3 The Elder Gods
Errastas got away. I find that I don't care. He was always a pathetic god. He has failed to destroy the younger gods. He has failed to learn from his past, unlike the Crippled god, he does not wish to have an honest dialogue with his worshippers. In fact he is worse than any god, he wants to not have any interaction at all with his worshippers (unlike most regular gods, who sometimes are forced to listen to their worshippers). He wants power with none of the responibilities. But no matter. With the Master of the Deck still alive, and Oponn on his trail, I don't expect him to live very much longer. He was always a flunkie.

Draconous, now. He has learned from his past. With Rakes help, he has been given a second chance. And though he was after the Elder Gods, he did the right thing by leaving the final convergence alone. He would have destroyed Korabas, when the plan hinged on letting her live. With Shadowthrones prodding, he returns to Mother Dark. I wonder what Silchas will do when he gets back to see him shacked up with his mother?

2.4 The Gods of War.
The final convergence was about destroying the Gods of war. All of them. They were spiteful creatures that lived off death. No different to the Elder Gods and their blood worship. But as noted in the book, the mortal races don't need them to wage war. Gruntle had to kill Trake and due to their own actions, one of the wolves was killed. But Fenar went willingly ( I think. Its mentioned after Karsa kills him by some character). Fenar was forced to live as a frightened God for the last few years, wheras I think Trake and the Wolves by becoming the main Gods of War had forgotten their humility and had become prideful creatures. Fenar gives his life to take back the effects of war. ( As I said I may be wrong here, its hinging on one comment made about Fenar by I think Heboric at the end, but I hope I'm right)


3: Heroism

3.1 General
Thats too much to go into here. The Marines, obviously, the Jaghut, the KCCM, the Imass, the Teblor, the Barghast, the Bolkando, the Letheri, the Shake, the Tiste Andii, the Tiste Liosan regulars on the other side, the Kolansii (compassion remember!)

But what really got me was Fiddler/Stormy/Gesler and the regulars. The Former because they have been "our" characters and the latter because unlike the heavies/marines/sappers they were really the "normal" soldiers. Not special, not annealed in fire/desert. No special munitions with them. Just regular soldiers. The marines/heavies/sappers were no better than them really. Thats what got me.


3.2 Tavore.
I'm not sure. I'm really not sure. There are 2 characters throughout the series who are portrayed as absolute awe-inspiring leaders of men. Coltaine and Anomander Rake. Those 2, we don't get a POV from, or do just at their end (Rake). Tavore is not written like them. She is more real and fragile. Not a god-like (Ascendent-like?) being. SE tells us that she only asks of people. And that she has been seemingly filled with grief ever since the loss of Felisin. I guess she thinks that she killed Felisin. Not even knowing that she REALLY did kill her. Is that heroism? I guess it is, if SE is trying to reduce heroism down to the concept of the hero been no different to anyone else. Sorry SE, but I just don't know how to feel about her. She is not as easy to like/respect as a leader like Rake, Coltaine, Genoes Paran etc. I guess thats the point.




4: Other things/responses to other reader complaints

4.1 The Forkrul Assail and their "nerfing"
The worst of the 4 founding races (5 Really, cos the Tel Aki should be in that list too. Maybe they are not included, because their tribes fell and cannot remember their past?). The Forkrul Assail were a race much worse than the Tiste Liosan I think. A race of socipaths. And I love the way SE built them up very slowly throughout the series. Like he did with Hoods/Travellers identities. I loved them. They were effective bad-guys. The one unredeemable race. So arrogant that they judged their own god and tore it apart for power. (I cannot understand the whining/bitching that other people are saying about their "nerfing". Lads, they beat the crap out of T'lan Imass/Mappo/ A Segulah/an ascendended Gesler. They exploded Mage's heads with their voices. Almost all of their losses in this book were due to exceptional circumstances. One withstood the power of the wolves (or at least survived it) Kalam may be the only exception, but he got them in their hearts every time. and he is hardly a normal human anymore). I was fine with the FA performance as the bad guys. And remember, when has any person/race being unassailable? (Pun intended!) Remember Raest back in GotM? Any entity can be taken down by another in this universe. They can dish out a lot, but flesh and blood can only take so much back in return. Remember Bugg's comments on power/will in DoD.


4.2 ICE and SE books linkage.
I CALLED IT!! No Kallor, no Skinner, no avowed. Although I got it wrong on Karsa. Lads, ICE's books are a superset of SE's. You need to read SE's to enjoy ICE's ones. NOT the other way around. The Crippled God created the House of Chains WITHOUT HIM AS THE KING IN CHAINS AND LET IT GO!. All he did was try to influence its members afterwards. (Although I am confused as to why SE says that Skinner usurped the role. Thats not what happened. He claimed it, but the Crippled God seemed happy to let him do so). The Final book is about the Crippled God, NOT the entire House of Chains. So, no Kallor, no Skinner and also no Leoman, no Kiska. and they did not need to be there. You need to read this series to understand ICE's. But not the reverse. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just itching to knock SE down any way they can. (Although....maye SE should not have mentioned Rel as the new emperor and Skinner as the new King in Chains. Just so people don't get confused). SE provides "advertisements" (might be a bad word there) for ICE books (Karsa, Skinner, Kallor, Assail, Tyrant King etc), but those are jumping off points. You don't need to read them to understand the Malazan book of the Fallen.

Also
Don't expect the Toblaki trilogy/Kharkanas Trilogy to be continuations of this series. I'm guessing that they will set in the past, (for the Kharkanas series) and the future (for the Toblakai one, although I may be wrong). Expect Flashbacks/excerpts from characters in the current series, but if its just more of the same, than what would be the point of calling this the final one?



4.3 Foreshadowing/Callbacks. Holy shit. wow. From the whole "Imass, we greet you" line, to the rain of god blood restoring the imass (rain of memories from MoI), to Tavore almost killing Ganoes, to Cotillion actually stabbing The Crippled God in a Night-of-Knives-stab-a-person-to-become-something-greater-way (remember Kalam/Quick Ben, don't know which, wondered why had Cotillion not done that at the last chaining anwyay?) Maybe SE went a bit overboard with them, but damn it was an effective way to wrap up.


4.4 Shadowthrone/Cotillion. You fuckers! I understand (I think) why you did it Cotillion, but damn, what a way to ruin a great moment. Their plan was explained back in HoC (and here with the T'lan Imass). Gain all the power and do nothing with it. Gain control of the T'lan Imass to stop them been used. Take out the Crippled God problem. Protect the mortals from the Gods by becoming Gods themselves. I think.


4.5 The Dialogue/Humour. Too much to go into here, but you all know what I mean.




So, thats it. A fantastic book. Best in series? I don't know. Might have to reread all to find out for sure (HoC went from last to first by my 3rd reading)
A satisfactory ending.

I'm glad I read the series.



Some of it (actually a lot of it) I am confused by. (Hood/Dassem/T'lan Imass Connection. So Hood wanted to use Dassem as a weapon against the T'lan Imass? As a result of then making Dassem first sword? But why take his daughter? Why piss him off? Was Hood always planning to then get dragnipured so that he can escape from Dassem so Dassem goes after Logros then? I don't know. And the Dassem/Rake fight, while cool, still makes no logical sense. What was Dassem hoping to achieve? He knew Hood was "dead")

Some of it I will actively dislike (Hmm... Stonney doesn't acknowledge Harllo because of what he represents and she must turn back to him, in mirror of the Mother Dark/Tiste Andii relationship,ok, but Scilliara....left a child behind on another continent? And no hint of remorse from her on that same theme in that same book in TtH?. Yet we are to condemn Stonney and leave her off the hook? Ok.... Plus, our hero Karsa........ still actively planning genocide? Although of course, I realise that these are SE's Characters views, not SE's views himself!)

However, a lot of what SE has knocked into me, I hope will stick (compassion/hope/the dangers of fanaticism/certainty).

Its a fantastic ending/series. A good investment in my time.








And one last thing. That scene at the start. Between Tulas Shorn and the T'lan imass skull. That REALLY affected me. Theres a message from SE there. A multi-facated message. I'll have to get back to that one again.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 01 March 2011 - 03:26 PM

[D'rek]

Great post, I agree with you on just about all of it. Funny, I found that Karsa & Munug bit to be absolutely beautiful, too, but I knew the "to die in someone's arms is forgiving" line was coming from SE's blog. I just never for the life of me had imagined it might be Karsa saying it until then!

blackzoid, on 01 March 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

Some of it (actually a lot of it) I am confused by. (Hood/Dassem/T'lan Imass Connection. So Hood wanted to use Dassem as a weapon against the T'lan Imass? As a result of then making Dassem first sword? But why take his daughter? Why piss him off? Was Hood always planning to then get dragnipured so that he can escape from Dassem so Dassem goes after Logros then? I don't know. And the Dassem/Rake fight, while cool, still makes no logical sense. What was Dassem hoping to achieve? He knew Hood was "dead")

It's hard to say on all this, but I don't think most of it was quite that intricate. Hood used Dassem's daughter as punishment when Dassem decried the Chaining as inhumane, or something like that. I can't remember if it says which came first, Dassem working for Hood or the T'lan Imass beginning to worship Dassem, but I guess whichever came later was in some ways a response to the former. For the Dassem-Rake, fight, well we can't really be sure Dassem knew Hood had been Dragnipur'd, just that Rake was putting himself between them. The Dassem-Dessembrae separation from TCG brings up the interesting matter of whether it was really Dassem or Dessembrae at that point, though.

blackzoid, on 01 March 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

Some of it I will actively dislike (Hmm... Stonney doesn't acknowledge Harllo because of what he represents and she must turn back to him, in mirror of the Mother Dark/Tiste Andii relationship,ok, but Scilliara....left a child behind on another continent? And no hint of remorse from her on that same theme in that same book in TtH?. Yet we are to condemn Stonney and leave her off the hook?

Well, Scillara gave up the kid at birth to two women who wanted to take care of it and then she left. Stonny's kid knows that Stonny is his real mom, so must have lived with her a little bit, and he's stuck running around collecting poo because his adopted family is poor, plus he's got the complex emotional issues of knowing and having seen that his mom rejects him, whereas Scillara's kid has the slightly more envious position of just never meeting Scillara...

blackzoid, on 01 March 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

And one last thing. That scene at the start. Between Tulas Shorn and the T'lan imass skull. That REALLY affected me. Theres a message from SE there. A multi-facated message. I'll have to get back to that one again.

Yeah, that was pretty heartbreaking

[Ceda Cicero]

D, on 01 March 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

The Dassem-Dessembrae separation from TCG brings up the interesting matter of whether it was really Dassem or Dessembrae at that point, though.

I was wondering this as well, as there's a bit in TtH where Samar Dev indicates the cultists assembled and says that they stand facing their god, which might hint that it's Dessembrae. I'm still inclined to think there's more evidence that it was mostly Dassem facing Rake, though. The bit in TCG where Dessembrae talks about how the cries of rage and thirst for vengeance from his mortal aspect echo through his soul (paraphrased), along with the fact that Dessembrae at the end of RotCG can at least hold down something like a coherent conversation with Hood without frenzying on him, makes me think that Dessembrae is somewhat divorced from the aspects of Dassem that are obsessed with Hood and vengeance.

Notice earlier I said mostly Dassem, though, as I'm sure there's some bit of overlap. It's a curious question as to how much. Interesting that when Dassem ascended, this very distinct split occurred, but we don't see it with ST or Cotillion. I think ST speaks to that a little indirectly when he confronts Dessembrae and thwacks him with his cane, though.

[blackzoid]

D, on 01 March 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

Well, Scillara gave up the kid at birth to two women who wanted to take care of it and then she left. Stonny's kid knows that Stonny is his real mom, so must have lived with her a little bit, and he's stuck running around collecting poo because his adopted family is poor, plus he's got the complex emotional issues of knowing and having seen that his mom rejects him, whereas Scillara's kid has the slightly more envious position of just never meeting Scillara...

I just don't know. It seems as if Scillara is being left off the hook, wheras Stonny has to face her actions. I'm not 100% comfortable with it. Especially in a book that dealt with the theme of a Mother returning to face her children. However, we can bring that up in the Toll The Hounds section.

As for more thoughts on the themes of this book, I was very surprised that both secret weapons, Tavore and Fiddler, survived. I was expecting one of both to die to continue teh theme of the fallen, but then I realised that there are problems with those expectations.

Fiddler: We were introduced to him in the first scene of the series. He is our "main" character. He is us to an extant. He has to return to the beginning. So he cannot die.
Tavore: She has been consumed by guilt over Felisin ever since the start of Deadhouse Gates. She perhaps should die to continue the plain-unwitnessed-hard-to-know-woman-theme but what about the catheris of reuniting with her brother (which we all hoped for since HoC) She cannot die in order for that to happen.

Perhaps its as someone else posted, that SE espoused the theme of the Fallen throughout the series in order to turn it on its head in the last section. (With respect to Tavore and Fiddler only. I realise that many other named main characters died in the book.)



Did anyone else spot that Tavore....seems to have been a Talon! Is that what we are supposed to take away from the necklace? Has she been in cohoots with ST and Cot all the time! It would explain how she was able to get Baudin to protect Felisin.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 01 March 2011 - 03:10 PM

[D'rek]

blackzoid, on 01 March 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

Did anyone else spot that Tavore....seems to have been a Talon! Is that what we are supposed to take away from the necklace? Has she been in cohoots with ST and Cot all the time! It would explain how she was able to get Baudin to protect Felisin.

Indeed. We've known she has Talon connections through the (now culled) Malaz nobility, so it's not a complete surprise. That being said, I think this is *the* issue that, after a while, we will debate with regard for the entire series. Did Tavore do this all on her own, or was she acting as an associate of Shadow this whole time? OOOooooooo mystery

[tiam]

The Dassem connection seems to be that the Logros (or maybe just Logros himself)'sanctified' Dassem through the Imass worship. Tool deemed this a curse forever (understandably) and told Logros not to do it explaining why he was clanless because the Logros were to follow the new First Sword in Dassem. What then happened (daughter kidnapping and forsaking Dassem) was apparently spurred by Hoods hatred of the Imass, for avoiding death I assume. When Dassem was 'killed' outside Yghatan thats why the Imass stopped serving the Empire.

As for earlier indications like MOI where Envy blames herself in Callows for Dassem's absence at the chaining Im unsure where this fits in the new scheme of things.

As for the arguement that the FA were not 'nerfed' that not right. Serenity drops Trull, Rhulad and Fear Sengar at one point before given the Kenryllah princes a good go. I cant remember how he dies but it was not as good as that. Even if it was the Hood one (which was epic) the FA's performance against the crew of Shurq Elalle just didnt add up to a single FA dropping the thousands of Tlan Imass it took to make the stone stairs in HOC.

EDIT- As for Tavore being a Talon I think that she was acting under orders from Cotillion who seems to have been acting on his own. Tavore set this up so the CG could be freed but really Cotillion wanted to kill him rather than let him go. ST then approves his actions after the deed.

This post has been edited by tiam: 01 March 2011 - 07:12 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

serenity gets finished by quick dropping him in a hole with a burner. if quick hadn't struck just then, serenity probably would have killed kalam.

basically, i have to agree that the FA were not a let-down. they were just not as inviolate as people like to think. sure silchas says that only eleint have the power to kill them, but he also got run off by munitions and quick ben, so i'm not sure his opinions are accurate any longer.

edit: shurq ellales crew was getting slaughtered. the only person who was holding in was felash's ex-Segulah handmaid.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 01 March 2011 - 07:56 PM

[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 07:54 PM, said:

serenity gets finished by quick dropping him in a hole with a burner. if quick hadn't struck just then, serenity probably would have killed kalam.

basically, i have to agree that the FA were not a let-down. they were just not as inviolate as people like to think. sure silchas says that only eleint have the power to kill them, but he also got run off by munitions and quick ben, so i'm not sure his opinions are accurate any longer.

edit: shurq ellales crew was getting slaughtered. the only person who was holding in was felash's ex-Segulah handmaid.

Information weve got before TCG
-Only the Eleint can kill them- possibly in groups?
- A single FA drops Trull, Rhulad and Fear.
-Calm kills thousands of Tlan Imass and is too powerful to be killed outright and had to be imprisoned.

Thats pretty much it.The fact that there is only 12 Pures made me think that these would all be like Calm, slaying all who stood before them. Also Kalam hits one in the hearts yet 7 Tlan Imass cant do the same job.

Its not only that the FA were less poweful than made out but the fact that there power levels were adapted to fit each scenario (too me atleast) felt wrong.

It wasnt just the FA. The KCCM v'gath took names against the KCNR but couldnt beat an army of around 40000 humans, that admittedly had unbreakable morale. A single Kell Hunters in MOI kills a load of BB and a load of horse warriors, 5 Kell hunters beat Gruntle, Harllo, Stonny, Buke and B+KB. Yet a few thousand cant easily dispatch an entrenched human army.

And dont give me that power level speech from DoD with Bugg and Seren Pedac because that refers to magery rather than already seen martial prowess. 800 Kell hunters in MOI were a match for the Host and Broods army yet it suited Erikson to make the KCCM effective in MOI yet not in this instance becasue it would have taken away from the challenge.

Im not saying the book was terrible and fluctuating power levels has never really botherd me before now but I felt they were 'nerfed'for no other reason than to add drama to the struggle against the Kolansii. You have to atleast see where im coming from on this. Ironically if the FA killed a thousand Vgath each it would fit with more of what weve heard from both races.

This post has been edited by tiam: 01 March 2011 - 08:08 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah i sorta see what you're saying. especially about calm. could thousands of t'lan somehow not get the drop on calm? or is that ublala's thing? blind-siding powerhouses? this is why it's not a big deal for me.

but think about this - kalam is jumping in and out of warrens that the assail don't even think should function in their presence. he's obviously got the advantage over them when he's working with Quick. the two of them took out tiste andii assassin mages in the first book, how are they not the perfect choice for 'nerfing' pures?

the t'lan imass have to rise out of the ground, and even if they wound the FA, unfortunately, it'll have time to react. i've never thought that t'lan imass could prevail against a FA or something that can move mind-numbingly fast, like icarium. they just can't keep up.

and whats this about 7-8,000 ve'gath and k'ell failing to roll over 40,000 mindlessly savage, and heavily entrenched, kolansii? even adding the 7k t'lan thats really not that unbelievable. they're using the same tactics as the malazans were iirc. the ve'gath hardly even took names against the nah'ruk, it was a fucking bloodbath and attrition was sky-high on both sides. yeah they fight hard and kill tons of humans, but it takes a long time to slaughter 40,000 of them when they will not retreat.

finally, the k'ell hunters in MoI were undead, maybe slower, though clearly not by much, but also... what is it? undead. if being undead, or at least undying could turn the imass into relentless killing machines, how relentless would a k'ell hunter be? note, that this doesn't invalidate my earlier point about the t'lan imass and FA. k'ell hunters, undead or otherwise would probably have trouble with FA, but their chances would be better than a t'lan's

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 01 March 2011 - 08:54 PM

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

finally, the k'ell hunters in MoI were undead, maybe slower, though clearly not by much, but also... what is it? undead. if being undead, or at least undying could turn the imass into relentless killing machines, how relentless would a k'ell hunter be? note, that this doesn't invalidate my earlier point about the t'lan imass and FA. k'ell hunters, undead or otherwise would probably have trouble with FA, but their chances would be better than a t'lan's

This. It seems that arrows can hurt living K'Chain, and the Kolansii had hordes of archers and tons of onager forts. The undead K'Chain in MoI didn't have to worry about punctured arteries so arrows did nothing. When you can only fight them up close, it gets a lot harder to resist the giant lizards (just like the Bonehunters at the end of DoD)

[blackzoid]

I don't want to get into this too much, but anyway...

1: "And dont give me that power level speech from DoD with Bugg and Seren Pedac because that refers to magery rather than already seen martial prowess."
Does it really? How can we be certain that when SE wrote that, he thought to himself, this only applies to magery? Only. I very much doubt that! And what already seen Martial prowess? We never saw Calm in a stand-up fight and Serenity was beaten back by creatures that were blown up by cussers.

2: The KCCM in MoI were undead. Not living creatures that felt pain. Undead. A massive difference. Remember Reaper's Gale? The KCCM were ambush attackers. Not straight up fighters as the numbers were not on their side. Remember the prologue to Midnight Tides? They were destroyed by the invading Tiste. We don't know how many KCCM were there, but there was a lot as they covered the plain in all directions. And yet the Tiste won. Silchas and Bloodeye did not kill them all. Living KCCM can feel pain and can be killed. Its as simple as that.

3: The expectation of FA strength is based on Calm and the description from Silchas as well as Serenity in MT. There is a simple thing which links all of their performances together and which does not cause problems with their performance in TCG. What is it? The FA are fast. Very Fast. Thats probably why Calm could destroy all of the T'lan Imass. Thats why Serenity beat up the 3 guys and the demon in MT. He was faster and had better physical endurance (but not overwhelmingly so). We also don't know the exact circumstances of the original Calm/T'lan Imass fight. Did they all attack together or in single file? We don't know. Almost every single FA was taken down by surprise in The Crippled God. The Malazan's cheated every time to hit their weak spots, thats the way the Malazan's play.


The fact is that ever since GOTM, there has been a trend of forces in the Malazan universe able to dish out massive amounts of power. However their ability to take damage in return is not as impressive. (Without been undead)
Thats just the way it was.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 02 March 2011 - 10:09 AM

[blackzoid]

Oh and something else I realised...Fiddler burned all the cards of the deck. Except the House of Chains.
Seeing that he is such a powerful reader, does that mean that the only active cards in the world are the House of Chains ones?
Although didn't Ganoes create some cards after that anway? To move his troops.

[Luzburg]

blackzoid, on 02 March 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

Oh and something else I realised...Fiddler burned all the cards of the deck. Except the House of Chains.
Seeing that he is such a powerful reader, does that mean that the only active cards in the world are the House of Chains ones?
Although didn't Ganoes create some cards after that anway? To move his troops.

I think that was symbolic. Fiddler isn't the Master of the Deck. The majority of the younger gods yet live, as well as the unaligned such as Icarium. Oponn for example are still at large. Whiskeyjack and the soldiers of the dead are very much active. Omtose Phellack and the King of Ice are active. Dessembrae must be extremely active, now we know he is seperate from his human self.

[blackzoid]

Oh I know the Gods are active still. No problems with that. but as regards the Deck of Dragons only, will the readers only be able to see the House of Chains from now on?
No interference from any Gods/Ascendents in the future (who are not in the House of Chains)

[Iamme]

blackzoid, on 02 March 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

Oh I know the Gods are active still. No problems with that. but as regards the Deck of Dragons only, will the readers only be able to see the House of Chains from now on?
No interference from any Gods/Ascendents in the future (who are not in the House of Chains)

Fiddler burned his cards. All other deck of dragons around the world work just fine. And you can always make new ones. His burning was symbolic. Only HoC mattered for bonehunters and allies. DoD afterall was a mean to divine future of gods (or subjects they influence). Cards itself meant nothing.

This post has been edited by Iamme: 02 March 2011 - 11:30 AM

[Luzburg]

blackzoid, on 02 March 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

Oh I know the Gods are active still. No problems with that. but as regards the Deck of Dragons only, will the readers only be able to see the House of Chains from now on?
No interference from any Gods/Ascendents in the future (who are not in the House of Chains)

I don't think thats how the deck works to be honest. If the house of chains is the only house then the others are unaligned cards.

[blackzoid]

Ah yes. Wasn't there something in Dust Of Drams about there been many more unaligned cards now? Maybe when Icarium's personality of Breath (Feather witch) was doing her reading.

[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

yeah i sorta see what you're saying. especially about calm. could thousands of t'lan somehow not get the drop on calm? or is that ublala's thing? blind-siding powerhouses? this is why it's not a big deal for me.

but think about this - kalam is jumping in and out of warrens that the assail don't even think should function in their presence. he's obviously got the advantage over them when he's working with Quick. the two of them took out tiste andii assassin mages in the first book, how are they not the perfect choice for 'nerfing' pures?

the t'lan imass have to rise out of the ground, and even if they wound the FA, unfortunately, it'll have time to react. i've never thought that t'lan imass could prevail against a FA or something that can move mind-numbingly fast, like icarium. they just can't keep up.

and whats this about 7-8,000 ve'gath and k'ell failing to roll over 40,000 mindlessly savage, and heavily entrenched, kolansii? even adding the 7k t'lan thats really not that unbelievable. they're using the same tactics as the malazans were iirc. the ve'gath hardly even took names against the nah'ruk, it was a fucking bloodbath and attrition was sky-high on both sides. yeah they fight hard and kill tons of humans, but it takes a long time to slaughter 40,000 of them when they will not retreat.

finally, the k'ell hunters in MoI were undead, maybe slower, though clearly not by much, but also... what is it? undead. if being undead, or at least undying could turn the imass into relentless killing machines, how relentless would a k'ell hunter be? note, that this doesn't invalidate my earlier point about the t'lan imass and FA. k'ell hunters, undead or otherwise would probably have trouble with FA, but their chances would be better than a t'lan's

I admit the Kalam/QB combo could have worked well against the Pures given the element of surprise but given were told it takes dragons or thousands of Imass it just jarred me, even though ive come to expect that from this series.

The bit with the Imass I meant in relation the heart. Werent they the 7 that failed against the FA in the Laderon plateu (the one by Karsa)? It seems likely that the Imass having dealings with the FA would know how to kill them rather than ineffectually wounding them when Kalam, with no prior knowledge (to the point were he even says to QB after killing one 'why didnt you tell me they had 2 hearts'), dispatches them with a set of knives in comparison to unbreakable flint swords.

By saying the Vgath took names I mean there the elite of the KCCM and did well against the KCNR. They should have easily ploughed through entrenched humans. The Kell, while alive and possibly more susceptible to damage, should have been alot quicker cutting through humans, especially when slower Kell do an excellent job in MOI.

D, on 01 March 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

finally, the k'ell hunters in MoI were undead, maybe slower, though clearly not by much, but also... what is it? undead. if being undead, or at least undying could turn the imass into relentless killing machines, how relentless would a k'ell hunter be? note, that this doesn't invalidate my earlier point about the t'lan imass and FA. k'ell hunters, undead or otherwise would probably have trouble with FA, but their chances would be better than a t'lan's

This. It seems that arrows can hurt living K'Chain, and the Kolansii had hordes of archers and tons of onager forts. The undead K'Chain in MoI didn't have to worry about punctured arteries so arrows did nothing. When you can only fight them up close, it gets a lot harder to resist the giant lizards (just like the Bonehunters at the end of DoD)

I admit the enfilade from what appeared to be giant arbalests would have been effective (and SE likely deliberately put them there to be an effective counter to the larger Teblor and Vgath foes) against the KCCM. Im not arguing that the Kolansii should have just bent over but the image we get from the other referecnes to the KCCM is alot more effective than the ones we see here.

blackzoid, on 02 March 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:

I don't want to get into this too much, but anyway...

1: "And dont give me that power level speech from DoD with Bugg and Seren Pedac because that refers to magery rather than already seen martial prowess."
Does it really? How can we be certain that when SE wrote that, he thought to himself, this only applies to magery? Only. I very much doubt that! And what already seen Martial prowess? We never saw Calm in a stand-up fight and Serenity was beaten back by creatures that were blown up by cussers.

2: The KCCM in MoI were undead. Not living creatures that felt pain. Undead. A massive difference. Remember Reaper's Gale? The KCCM were ambush attackers. Not straight up fighters as the numbers were not on their side. Remember the prologue to Midnight Tides? They were destroyed by the invading Tiste. We don't know how many KCCM were there, but there was a lot as they covered the plain in all directions. And yet the Tiste won. Silchas and Bloodeye did not kill them all. Living KCCM can feel pain and can be killed. Its as simple as that.

3: The expectation of FA strength is based on Calm and the description from Silchas as well as Serenity in MT. There is a simple thing which links all of their performances together and which does not cause problems with their performance in TCG. What is it? The FA are fast. Very Fast. Thats probably why Calm could destroy all of the T'lan Imass. Thats why Serenity beat up the 3 guys and the demon in MT. He was faster and had better physical endurance (but not overwhelmingly so). We also don't know the exact circumstances of the original Calm/T'lan Imass fight. Did they all attack together or in single file? We don't know. Almost every single FA was taken down by surprise in The Crippled God. The Malazan's cheated every time to hit their weak spots, thats the way the Malazan's play.


The fact is that ever since GOTM, there has been a trend of forces in the Malazan universe able to dish out massive amounts of power. However their ability to take damage in return is not as impressive. (Without been undead)
Thats just the way it was.

Obviously SE didnt write that and think 'my readers will know that this means power in magery or less concrete forms'. But theres a far more cemented heirarchy for martial skills rather than magery. If an on paper stronger mage was beaten by a technically inferior opponent (QB against the dragons let say) that can be accepted. But building up the KCCM in MOI to unstoppably fast kell hunters and the Vgath, taken to be stronger than them, it seems they should not have struggled (when they had help remember from not just the Imass) with the Kolansii.

The reason the Tiste won in the battle in the MT prologue is because as it says 'the KCCM were hideously slow to turn to the attack on their flank' or something like that, I dont have the books to hand. Im fairly certain there were around 40-50000 (unsure where I got that figure to be honest but I remember there being atleast that many Kell) KCCM and they killed over 550 000 Andii and Edur (400 000 Andii to less than a thousand after the battle, 200 000 Edur to around 18 000 after the battle). I find it difficult to see why you come up with that as an example of KCCM ineffectiveness (if my figures are right which they might not be to be honest).

Your right of course that there were alot of special circumstances involved in dropping the Pures (ambushes, Brys's odd god ejaculation) and I see that, as well as we dont see the FA apart from split second viewpoints and hand me down facts. But I really believed theyd be better considering Trull, Rhulad and Fear couldnt even touch them and a crew of sailors could, granted the circumstances were a bit different different.

All Im trying to say is that it doesnt exactly fit with what weve seen. Power levels are a tricky thing anyway but I just felt that SE upped the KCCM power (for example) when it suited him in MOI and downplayed it in TCG to add drama. I completely understand why he did this and I remember thinking there must be something special in Kolanse to deal with the KCCM but there wasnt. Instead the KCCm were downplayed.

Again I see why he had to do it but it just took an edge off.

Edit- As im pulling facts and statistics out of my arse atm Ive just remembered during a Calm POV were he/she (couldnt keep up) claims to have killed hundreds of Tlan Imass rather than the thousands we see in Karsa's POV in HOC. To take it a step further if all you had to do was puncture both hearts why didnt they do that instead of pinning her under a rock.

Its things like that that bother me, granted I admit its based on my own perceptions and can see how others may have felt diffeently and not had it spoil the book (a bit) for them.

This post has been edited by tiam: 02 March 2011 - 09:24 PM