[Ace Hunter]

Im back..............nobody online. Ok then. Silencer did say he was going on a road trip today, so I guess I'll cut him slack.


I want to ask a trivial question first. What does igmeoy mean? Metalist, you said it here:

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

igmeoy, Ace.

Also reading up

[Mentalist]

I've
Got
My
Eye
On
You

[Silencer]

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 10:50 PM, said:

Roldom's death has to be a bit of a signal flare over Mentalist or Silencer. The only reason you want to keep Tattersail in the game if you're scum is because he's keeping you alive by virtue of his presence. You kill off one of his voters at the buzzer and hope he stays around another day to keep suspicion on himself. This only helps you if you're someone else that was considered suspicious. We had a few names floated around yesterday like Trull and me, but Silencer and Ment are the top suspects, IMO, even if they didn't pull the trigger.

Whoa, are you pulling WIFOM here, PB? Because this sounds a lot like WIFOM to me. And from you, one of our dedicated fact-analyzers, this post raised my eyebrows in RL. I get what you're saying - it makes sense, but you are still analyzing an action, and drawing info out of it.


To those wondering where I've been, I was indeed on a road trip with friends today, so unfortunately I wasn't around. Catching up now (read from the lynch so far). Ballsy move by Tattersail, we don't see it very often. I've done it myself, and it takes conviction to do.

[Hugin & Munin]

It is Day 2. 20 hours and 25 minutes remaining
15 Players still alive: Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, PB, Shinrei, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Trull's son, Vengeance

8 votes to lynch, 8 votes to go to night.


Players not voted: Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, PB, Shinrei, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Trull's son, Vengeance


Dreks gone and left me (roldom) with H n M so please, no complicated questions

[Silencer]

Tapper, on 22 February 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 22 February 2011 - 02:58 PM, said:

Definately, why not.

I mean yes I wasn't happy with all the joke votes, but me voicing this unhappiness made me "suspicious". Now if you look at the same "joke" votes they become more serious which was my point in the first place.

I would rather me take a hit day one than a good roled town player but before I do I would at least voice my opinion on the whole train. I think Tapper is leading the lynch, and he is good enough to appear like town when either a) he is a symp diverting away from Silencer, Ment? I am unsure, but his willingness to lynch me seems scummy as he usually has a good read on players and a good read on how they play. This being the case, he took my being pissed off at all the joke votes to being suspicious. he has totally got it wrong and I have pointed the finger in his direction. c) he is right

Silencer, PB and Ment were the people I thought were scummy but i'm like Shin and never guess right on the first day or two.

Dude, Silencer was my second candidate and I had my vote on him when I put pressure on you. Ment... could be I am protecting him. I'll be sure to get some questions asked if you turn up inno even if you are through your reactions to both the votes and my questions currently the best lynch.

There is another thing you fail to appreciate. We lynch you, and regardless of your alignment, we have a very good train for analysis: the fact that of the people leading the train, 2 were joke votes that remained on you while their players were around during the case and defense is one. Me is another, and dibs supporting the notion is a third one, and we may get a few more before people just hop on the bandwagon.

Besides, lynching PB would have been a complete shot in the dark, playing the odds, lynching Silencer might nail a symp, which means he CFs inno anyway and leaving us with no clue to his master. Ment... well, I still don't understand why we'd want to lynch him.

So, Tattersail WAS innocent, heh.

Moreover, you reiterate your 'protection' of Ment vibe here with your last line.

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

Holy shit you guys are actually playing this one seriously. Been a long time since I had to read up like 10+ pages.

Couldn't make it back last night but I've got a little time so I'll get acquainted with the thread.

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 22 February 2011 - 01:30 AM, said:

Wow, even I feel lost in this reminiscing. And the pages are piling up too. I went to eat breakfast and found 2 pages added since my first post...

Good ol' fashioned day 1 spam fest. I barely remember when that was the norm.

How do you think I feel right now? lol... wow this is a lot. Enjoyable to see so much discussion for a change, even if it's just spam.

Why thank you, PB. Yes, I'm taking the credit for it, heh.

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Silencer, on 22 February 2011 - 02:26 AM, said:

Don't tell him that!

Wait, what am I saying. PB will probably read it all anyway, and come up with something useful.

No, nothing really stood out this far into the read other than you playing the "typical" symp role pointing fingers everywhere... but you should know I never lynch for Day 1 cases like that. They never pan out.

Exactly why I'm surprised you're going into WIFOM consideration mode. And if nothing is standing out for you...perhaps it is because you're scum?

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 05:36 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 22 February 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Tapper, on 22 February 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

Besides, lynching PB would have been a complete shot in the dark, playing the odds, lynching Silencer might nail a symp, which means he CFs inno anyway and leaving us with no clue to his master. Ment... well, I still don't understand why we'd want to lynch him.

Mental should be lynched on his scummyness alone, same thing for silencer. If PB is town then the scum will kill him off. If he isn't then we might have to lynch him for not being killed off.

sigh. lookit, venge. the killers can daykill this game. yet the Dude is still alive. and so am I. This narrow the suspect pool down by at least 3 people.
And I would also like to know what I did this game to warrant such suspicion from Tattersail. I'm pretty sure that I called him out when he called me your symp, and asked why he isn't voting you. he never bothered to respond to that.

Why are people still assuming things based upon meta reasoning? It's against D'rek's rules, for one, and it's poor play, for two. I've seen several people lose games recently due to meta play.

No, meta is legit this game. It's time-based meta reasoning (which has been sitting just off to one side in a few posts, granted) which is out of bounds. Everything else is fine.

And Vengy and I were using a bit of meta last game, and town won, so it's not *always* bad. Granted, I don't think meta is a great reason to lynch someone, or to base reasoning off, but it's still a tool.

The Dude, on 22 February 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

Another thing I don't like about Silencer. He left the thread with a joke vote on. Now, maybe he knew he will be back before lynch, but I believe he usually is gone around the time day times out. I might be wrong on this though, just seems odd to leave a joke vote on so late in the day. I think this, combined with his carefree spamathon is enough to gain my vote for day 1.

vote Silencer

another thing to look at right now... who isn't on the silencer train. regardless of if he is a symp or not, the accusation has been thrown around by multiple people. I would be surprised if 1-2 of the scum AREN't on the train right at this moment when the voting could swing between silencer and tattersail. The scum more than likely don't know their symps. I doubt they would be on the train early on to eliminate one of their potential symps.

Hey presto, an example of time meta reasoning. Joke vote or not on my part, this chain of logic is pushing the edges. Besides, if there is nowhere else I feel reasonable for my joke vote to go, I might as well leave it on. If ment got lynched because I left a vote hanging around, it would give info either way. *shrug*

Besides, altless is all about the jokes and crazy play.

[drinksinbars]

not much has happened since last night. no voting but a lot of speculation. Given there was only one kill its also likely the killers only share a single kill which means they must have off thread comms. Now for me if you wanted to disrupt the train and maybe end without a lynch (which if your trying to lynch an inno makes no sense) then timing it so you make people think they have a lynch and miss end of day is clever. taking out roldom as well leaves those of us with suspicion about to be investigated or lynched. In fact stopping tats lynch would have meant today was wasted trying to lynch them again and us losing another player to a day kill so we were hitting day 3 with 2 dead innos and 1 lynched inno which wouldnt have been a great start.

Still having trouble getting a read on a few people who havent posted much. Lizra made a bit of a soft case on the hidden one, but there hasnt really been anything of substance to go on there so its a hard case to make. Mts has been near non existant. The only players making much of a splash are the dude, ment (who is very defensive) tapper and silencer. With maybe grief and pb a short way behind with some obesravtions and careful voting.

I would like to hear silencers thoughts on the cases made against him, and why ment is so defensive. By your own admission, three times you have pushed this thought that your train was a joke and not worth discussing which is more defensive that tat was yesterday. If the train was a joke, why are you reacting so strongly? Pushing the wifom argument that you and the dude would kill each ther if either were scum just makes me think you both are.

[Mentalist]

only to a point. at some point we have to get back to rality and face the fact that mafia is srss business.

that being said, I have recently remebered that I promised i'd help my rez with some stuff for the next two days. specifically, the next two mornings. meaning, I have to be up in 5 hours. so, bedtime.

[Mentalist]

drinksinbars, on 23 February 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

not much has happened since last night. no voting but a lot of speculation. Given there was only one kill its also likely the killers only share a single kill which means they must have off thread comms. Now for me if you wanted to disrupt the train and maybe end without a lynch (which if your trying to lynch an inno makes no sense) then timing it so you make people think they have a lynch and miss end of day is clever. taking out roldom as well leaves those of us with suspicion about to be investigated or lynched. In fact stopping tats lynch would have meant today was wasted trying to lynch them again and us losing another player to a day kill so we were hitting day 3 with 2 dead innos and 1 lynched inno which wouldnt have been a great start.

Still having trouble getting a read on a few people who havent posted much. Lizra made a bit of a soft case on the hidden one, but there hasnt really been anything of substance to go on there so its a hard case to make. Mts has been near non existant. The only players making much of a splash are the dude, ment (who is very defensive) tapper and silencer. With maybe grief and pb a short way behind with some obesravtions and careful voting.

I would like to hear silencers thoughts on the cases made against him, and why ment is so defensive. By your own admission, three times you have pushed this thought that your train was a joke and not worth discussing which is more defensive that tat was yesterday. If the train was a joke, why are you reacting so strongly? Pushing the wifom argument that you and the dude would kill each ther if either were scum just makes me think you both are.

lol
I bring up the same argument, to diff peeople, because they keep throwing the same accusation at me. without reading how I dismantled it earlier.
besides, that particular mode of accusation is a pet peeve of mine, just as SIlencer gets riled up about being called smooth.
and the argument re: dude isn't wifom. it's just meta.

anyhow, now i'm really off to bed.

[Silencer]

ansible, on 22 February 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

drinksinbars, on 22 February 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

Ahh the old scaremongery trick, that never works dude. In fact it just makes you look bad, if you cant get a lynch by providing evidence you use meta fear to convince people to swap over before they are labelled scum even if you suceed and the lynch cf is inno. I applaud you. Maybe reason will out and you will see sense. If silencer comes back inno will you push tat's lynch tomorrow or go for tapper, shin or me and say we didnt vote for the symp. Of course you will have no proof he was the symp, same as how you dont have any now and you are removing him before he has really interacted with anyone so if he is the symp (which is possible) his death will tell us nothing about the scum team. seriously, the evidence of his symping is his post count, and players like ment and grief used to dwarf that on day 1 in old altless games.

Sadly it doesnt mean i wont change if necessary as we should lynch everyday. Just dont preach that your now able to spot scum as they havent voted for silencer cause we both know thats a bullshit argument.

This has convinced me.

Vote Tattersail

Wait a second...what has convinced you? This was...slippery. Dibs makes a good point about fearmongering, but the logic behind it is grounded in train info. Is that what you mean? Quoting someone else's post and essentially saying "I agree" is not good - scummy, in many ways.

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

@Dibs, I'm fine being a bit suicidal. By my strategy, it would have been smart to lynch or start a train on me earlier, when I was gone for a while. I always advocate low-post lynching at the start of the game, even if it's me =)

The one big thing about The Dude's summary post is that it is full of compliments. People forget how far compliments can take you in Mafia. Someone wants to lynch you? Tell them they're smart. You'll be surprised how well you can kill people with kindness. Sometimes throwing a tantrum works, too, but I have found that just being nice is enough. It's a powerful tactic for scum to use. For the Dude to come out and agree with half of the people's opinions like that, I find it to be a little dodgy.

Granted, but it depends how subtle it is. Blatantly cozying up to every player on the board is one thing, but to sway opinions you need to be focused on a few, without overdoing it. I've been swayed that way before, but if someone tries too hard, it just gets suspicious. I learned that lesson long ago in the Culture game. Yeah, I'm talking about fucking JA. XD

So that, I presume, is why the Dude is pinging your radar on this issue - he's spreading the love. But pointing it out just defuses it now. If you brought it up later when he's invested himself more in the tactic, it becomes a more powerful argument because it's more obvious what he's doing. By talking about it now, you just alert him to the danger. Which is you sounding helpful and intelligent without having to wait for him to actually sink himself into the hole.

Peanutbutta, on 22 February 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

@Grief, if not being on for a while is a way to not get lynched, AFK for the bulk of the rest of this game.

And since I'm on deck to run a longish, complex game, I may be slightly thinking ahead and trying to not KILL OFF all of our new players so quickly. Y'know, so they don't get bitter and avoid my game.

Ah, the old argument for lynching low posters. Love it. On the other hand, if being AFK is a reason to get lynched, it makes distracting from lynches by posting high a very viable tactic, as we're likely to work our way through the non-participants first.


Anyway, I've seen a lot of people latching onto and repeating the "Silencer is likely to be a symp" line. Fair enough, spamming the hell out of the thread is a good symp tactic to hide your masters, it clutters the thread, etc, etc. It wasn't that long ago (though it has been a while) when this number of posts was not that uncommon by the end of day one. If people can't read through a thread just because someone has been bantering...yeah, how the hell did we ever win as town in the past?
Moreover, while it gives cover to scum, they still have to play or low-post. If they low-post, the absence of any suspicious interactions whatsoever makes us look at low-posters. If they play, they're liable to slip. The more scum have to talk, on ANY matter, the better.

So, yes, sympish play, but that is not the same thing as symping someone. People are getting on that bandwagon readily, because it's easy. It dismisses the potential value in my antics, and the people who are blindly following this logic are suspicious because it's easy. The people propagating this logic are suspicious because it's simplistic and diverts attention from the "massive spamfest" and the potential info in it.

Right: watch my interactions. Watch who I don't interact with. Like I'm a symp. Because whether I am or not, it is likely to aid town in some way if we keep an eye on things. I can't believe I'm having to explain this.

[MTS]

drinksinbars, on 23 February 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

Mts has been near non existant.

I did say in the signups I may have to low post in stretches...

I've finished TCG now though, so my free time won't be as monopolised. I'll weigh in after I have dinner.

ETA - and a shower...

This post has been edited by MTS: 23 February 2011 - 08:45 AM

[Silencer]

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

hey, i'm back (the girl actually had a shopping list this time, so it didn't take that long)
seems a lot of things are happening. our primary targets appear to be Silencer and tattersail. of the two, I'd be inclined to vote off silencer today. Why, you may ask?


for this:

Ace Hunter, on 22 February 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Vote Mentalist

Don't like his comments earlier in the day. Now I'm off to bed.

now, if that's not a "i'm a lazy scum, so i'll just vote where other scum are voting" type of vote, I don't know what is.

At that point, the only people voting me were the Dude and Silencer., both joke/OMGUS votes. oh, and ainsible, who though I was symping Venge, but doesn't think so anymore.

if my vote wasn't already on Silencer, it would be now.

Can you elaborate on this, Ment? Ace's is a lazy scum vote, which makes me scum...but if that's the case he could also be a lazy scum voting with the joke votes because it's easy. Which means he is more likely to be scum...so why me?

drinksinbars, on 23 February 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

not much has happened since last night. no voting but a lot of speculation. Given there was only one kill its also likely the killers only share a single kill which means they must have off thread comms. Now for me if you wanted to disrupt the train and maybe end without a lynch (which if your trying to lynch an inno makes no sense) then timing it so you make people think they have a lynch and miss end of day is clever. taking out roldom as well leaves those of us with suspicion about to be investigated or lynched. In fact stopping tats lynch would have meant today was wasted trying to lynch them again and us losing another player to a day kill so we were hitting day 3 with 2 dead innos and 1 lynched inno which wouldnt have been a great start.

Still having trouble getting a read on a few people who havent posted much. Lizra made a bit of a soft case on the hidden one, but there hasnt really been anything of substance to go on there so its a hard case to make. Mts has been near non existant. The only players making much of a splash are the dude, ment (who is very defensive) tapper and silencer. With maybe grief and pb a short way behind with some obesravtions and careful voting.

I would like to hear silencers thoughts on the cases made against him, and why ment is so defensive. By your own admission, three times you have pushed this thought that your train was a joke and not worth discussing which is more defensive that tat was yesterday. If the train was a joke, why are you reacting so strongly? Pushing the wifom argument that you and the dude would kill each ther if either were scum just makes me think you both are.

Cross-post with this. See my last post.

[Silencer]

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 08:15 PM, said:

Ace Hunter, on 22 February 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

Right, morning all, and this may be my only post until evening, busy day today. Something I noticed, Tattersail mentioning my vote on Mentalist. Here's the quote:

Tattersail, on 22 February 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

Woah woah I wasn't, I never even placed a vote on you, you have three votes, ace hunter one of them that I remember they where all accusing you of symping venge, not me, I just pointed out that you had votes on you that's all. I'm on my way home back in around 2 hours

tatts all for now

Now Tattersail said I was accussing Mentalist of symping Vengeance, and you all know it when she says "they were all". But I never mentioned that at all. Makes me kinda curious why Tattersail would specifically mention me.

And while you're still giving me bad vibes Mentalist, Silencer and now Tattersail are too. Went for you more as Silencer was pretty much spamming and that messed with my head.

ugh
its posts like that that make me hate you sometimes, Ace.
how about a quote of what the hell I said to give you a bad vibe?
i mean, it's almost as bad as saying Silencer is smooth--how the hell are we to defend from stuff like that?

Yeah, I feel this. Ambiguous, baseless, and indefensible. I mean, wtf...

[Silencer]

Trull, on 22 February 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

alright I'll admit it, Silencer confuses me with the posts, their content -- joking but could be semi-serious. Damn they're too smooth! The sheer amount by of posts by him alone has added pages of reading for me that went nowhere! I'm convinced that this is symp play. Yeah, there isn't much to go after Silencer with, but since it's already between Silencer and Tatt, and i've explained that I cannot in good conscious vote Tatt for making the same mistake as I had, I feel I must

vote Silencer

I must have missed where you explained the reasons you can't vote for Tattersail...was it something about noobs jumping?

Anyway, you're voting for someone on the basis they're giving symp vibes, I'm sure it was thoroughly advertised on thread that you want to USE potential symps, not lynch someone highly likely to CF innocent.

And you seriously said 'smooth'. That had better have been a fucking joke...

Mentalist, on 22 February 2011 - 08:53 PM, said:

ansible, on 22 February 2011 - 08:45 PM, said:

Trull, on 22 February 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

alright I'll admit it, Silencer confuses me with the posts, their content -- joking but could be semi-serious. Damn they're too smooth! The sheer amount by of posts by him alone has added pages of reading for me that went nowhere! I'm convinced that this is symp play. Yeah, there isn't much to go after Silencer with, but since it's already between Silencer and Tatt, and i've explained that I cannot in good conscious vote Tatt for making the same mistake as I had, I feel I must

vote Silencer

If you think Silencer is a symp, shouldn't you NOT vote for him on Day 1? Just according to others' logic...

sigh
mafia 101
if you find someone yo think is a symp, look for who he's symping, then vote THAT person.
you ONLY vote the symp if you have absolutely nothing better--because, 9 times out of 10, the person you think is a symp will be RI. and since they CF the same, you'll never know.

also, TS, don't be surprised if you end up temp banned. just e-mail one of the other admins to get that sorted our,

Ah, I see Mentalist already gave you the 101 speech, and warned you of possible consequences of your post. *grumble*fuckingsmoothwtfiswrongwithyoupeople*/grumble*

drinksinbars, on 22 February 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

that looks like a lynch or am i miscounting?

*suspicious*

[Hugin & Munin]

Since declaring himself Emperor, Zhang Xiu had sent representatives and gifts to all the tribal nations surrounding his dynasty. As soon as news of Ma Teng's assault was received in Han Zhong, word was spread to all of Zhang Xiu's foreign representatives. Several nations pledged their support in soldiers and supplies, including the Xiongnu, nomadic tribesmen living north of the Great Wall. The Shanyu (chieftain) of the Xiongnu, Liu Bao, sent his brother Qubei with five thousand horse archers to ambush Ma Teng's supply convoys. For ten days Qubei's warriors roamed the region north of the river, ambushing and looting Ma Teng's supply convoys. On the eleventh day, Qubei's lieutenant spotted an unusually large group of supply wagons in a shallow valley. The Xiongnu warriors charged down the mountain, loosing arrows. The wagon drivers turned their wagons to the sides of the trail, then fled into the hills. Qubei's horse warriors poured into the center of the convoy, hurling torches. Suddenly a hissing sound erupted on all sides. Qubei drew his sword and sliced open the canvas of a wagon, revealing only open casks of black powder. There was no time even to turn away before the casks detonated and scorched the valley clean.

Vengance is dead. He was Qubei, brother of the Xiongnu Shanyu Liu Bao.

This post has been edited by Hugin & Munin: 23 February 2011 - 09:11 AM

[Hugin & Munin]

It is Day 2. 19 hours and 05 minutes remaining
14 Players still alive: Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, PB, Shinrei, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Trull's son,

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.


Players not voted: Ace Hunter, ansible, dibs, Grief, HiddenOne, Lizra, Mentalist, MTS, PB, Shinrei, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Trull's son

Roldom

[Tapper]

Not much happening since I went to bed yesterday.

Ment, did you ever consider that the fact that you had to explain yourself three times on the same issue is because it is slightly less than convincing?

And I agree with dibs: the entire 'we're in a feud so if the guy I feud with isn't dead, we're not scum' is riduculous. If you seriously think that is a defense, I'd suggest we pre-emptively lynch the bunch of you. Which is equally ridiculous, of course.

[Silencer]

ansible, on 22 February 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

Yeah, ha, I guess Roldom got killed before all the votes were in?

Also, Grand Administrator? That doesn't sound good...

Fairly standard "oh what a shame" post. The "ha" was interesting, though, if I'm being pedantic.

[drinksinbars]

[Tapper]

^^ That was an embarassing crosspost with a whole valley and Vengey going kaplooey.

EDIT: X-post with dibs and silencer.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 23 February 2011 - 08:57 AM

[Silencer]

drinksinbars, on 23 February 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

not much has happened since last night. no voting but a lot of speculation.

*snip*

Tapper, on 23 February 2011 - 08:54 AM, said:

Not much happening since I went to bed yesterday.
*snip*

MOAR SUSPICIOUS!!!1!!1

Quote

Ment, did you ever consider that the fact that you had to explain yourself three times on the same issue is because it is slightly less than convincing?

And I agree with dibs: the entire 'we're in a feud so if the guy I feud with isn't dead, we're not scum' is riduculous. If you seriously think that is a defense, I'd suggest we pre-emptively lynch the bunch of you. Which is equally ridiculous, of course.

Yeah, there is that to consider.


And yeah...early in the day for a kill? At least we don't have to worry too much about a repeat performance of yesterday.