[Whisperzzzzzzz]

First, I've shamelessly copied this post from Reddit because I'm lazy. http://www.reddit.co..._their_work_is/

Quote

This week, conservative blogger Leo Grin posted an article titled "The Bankrupt Nihilism of our Fallen Fantasists", characterizing the work of several popular fantasy authors as nihilistic and calling it "a mockery and defilement of the mythopoetic splendor that true artists like Tolkien and Howard willed into being with their life's blood."

Joe Abercrombie, author of the First Law series responded to Grin's article.

R. Scott Bakker, author of the Prince of Nothing series, responded on his blog.

There's also a great response posted on The Wertzone about how Grin's arguments are baseless because Grin completely misses the point of Tolkien's and Howard's works.

And a response from Floor to Ceiling Books points out how Grin fails to mention any female authors when he calls out various contemporary fantasy authors in his article.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 17 February 2011 - 12:52 AM

[Illuyankas]

The comments on Grin's article - in particular the one praising Goodkind for how Randian his work is - tell you everything you need to know about it, just in case your brain stopped itself remembering the drivel you put it through, you bastard.

[Vengeance]

Well I can say that I have read Abercrombie, Bakker and various female authors. I have been know to visit Wert's site at times. But until now I have never heard of Leo Grin. I found his understanding of fantasy writing to be pathetic and totally with out imagination. Although strangely enough his writing it self isn't to bad as Baker pointed out. I think that perhaps his need to view things in a black and white context is due to a limited imagination. Perhaps his mother didn't play with him enough when he was a kid and instead just plumped him down in front of a TV? If he grew up watching bonanza that would explain his fascination with things only being good and evil and nothing in between.

The replies from Joe and R.Scott and wert were well thought out and a enjoyment to read.

[Vengeance]

Illuyankas, on 17 February 2011 - 01:29 AM, said:

The comments on Grin's article - in particular the one praising Goodkind for how Randian his work is - tell you everything you need to know about it, just in case your brain stopped itself remembering the drivel you put it through, you bastard.

I saw goodkind and just giggled as it was a perfect fit..

[HoosierDaddy]

Anytime someone feels keen to purposefully implant a political slant into something, I immediately begin to close my mind. Then again, it is a conservative website (as all of the guys sites are built for conservatives), so it is by necessity political.

Thus, I could give a lesser shit what this guy thinks of fantasy. Tradition for tradition's sake is anti-intellectual, and that is exactly the opposite of how I generally like my literature.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 17 February 2011 - 01:42 AM

[MWKarsa]

HoosierDaddy, on 17 February 2011 - 01:41 AM, said:

Anytime someone feels keen to purposefully implant a political slant into something, I immediately begin to close my mind. Then again, it is a conservative website (as all of the guys sites are built for conservatives), so it is by necessity political.

Thus, I could give a lesser shit what this guy thinks of fantasy. Tradition for tradition's sake is anti-intellectual, and that is exactly the opposite of how I generally like my literature.

Pretty much this. I didn't know this guy before reading this and I don't give a rat's ass on his opinion as it affects me none whatsoever. Seems like another pathetic attempt to draw attention and reaction and all I could muster was a yawn.

[Roldom]

mr Grin (which you have to admit would be a great character name in any book) looks at the world with rose tinted spectacles. He obviously hasnt read all of Tolkiens work, and after just a cursiory glance at the material, has decided he is an expert. in the silmirilian, by the time the noldor enter Beriland the Valor are basicly leave them to die and suffer untill an elf goes back begging for help. The elves dwarves and men nearly defeat melkor, but fail because one of the human tribes betrays everyone else. Orcs are a race of tourtured mutalated elves.

The themes of betrayl, slaiughter and tragedy are found throughout all fantasy. Maybe theres a little more cussings these days, but thats also true of society. It adds to the realsim. Imagine youve just spotted a thousand angry warriors riding down on you, your not likely to say "oh poot!"

[Stalker]

Quote

I am a HUGE fan of Terry Goodkind's 'Sword of Truth' novels. The books are each good, though some are better than others, but they all feed into the greater story arc. Goodkind's ability to find the voice of each character helps with their development and, most of all, they act like Adults!

That Goodkind's story is a fantasy exposition on Ayn Rand's Objectivism only helps me connect with the story, with 'Faith of the Fallen' being, by and way, my favorite of the series. I re-read it about once a year and always come away with some new insight and truth.

The fantasy genre is not dead, it's simply bloated, infested with insects and parasites but it's good heart still beats and if you look hard enough, there is still glorious life within it.

Saw this on the read through the article and comments. Just wanted to let everyone know that Goodkind is breathing glorious life into the genre.

But on a serious note, I agree with HD. This article has no effect on me, I don't care what the author thinks and I don't agree with his opinion. I'm willing to bet he hasn't read much or any of MBotF, or more recently, The Heroes, yet uses them as examples to make a point for how modern fantasy is in a downward spiral. Instead, he chooses to quote reviews on amazon. I can randomly find any product on there and find a negative review about it. In fact, DoD had 31 reviews. Of those, there were no 1 star reviews and only three 2 star reviews, where his expert opinion against the series comes from.

I feel bad for the guy though, because he is missing out with Abercrombie, SE, Jordan, etc.

[MTS]

HD hits the nail on the head. This comment just typifies the stupidity of putting a political slant on modern fantasy:

Quote

The old biblical warning about days when evil is declared good, and good is denounced as evil are being fulfilled.
Small wonder that "feminists" and "human rights advocates" embrace the resurgence in the middle east of a mysogynistic, theocratic ideology that calls for hanging homosexuals and stoning adulterers. They have become so versed in moral relativism that they can no longer recognize Evil when it's biting them on the arse.

I pretty much turned my brain off while reading that. Like many others have said, none of his examples really hold any water - fantastical tales have always had their darker elements, and his representation of Tolkien and Howard is laughably simplistic, and pretty much wrong once you delve even a little under the surface of those works. Hell, even some children's tales are never as unambiguous in their portrayal of the world as Grin would have us believe. IIRC in one of the Brothers Grimm tales a father takes his children to watch a man get hanged in order to demonstrate the consequences of misbehaving.

I even think his characterisation of modern fantasy as 'nihilistic' doesn't even hold any water. In Siergiej's (sp.?) interview with SE that was posted the other day SE stated one of the overarching themes of his series is (and I'm paraphrasing) 'the need for compassion in an increasingly cold-hearted world.' That's hardly nihilistic, in fact it's even a little hopeful, and we see a fair bit of it in the series, Cotillion being the most salient example.

[HoosierDaddy]

The really sad part is that he politicized into an "us" versus "them" mentality that is far removed from the truth. I loved The Lord of the Rings when I read them, and yet here I am in one of the "child of middle class parents, liberal, college graduate's" (paraphrased, I think) forum.

I can read Sanderson and not notice the lack of sex or cursing because I like the story and prose. I can also read Erikson and not notice the cursing because I like the story and prose.

He can keep his "them" versus "us" mentality away from me. Hell, if I randomly saw him I'd talk LotR with him and never even care that he thinks my favorite authors are somehow corrupting my favorite genre.

I'd just tell him thank god Tom Bombadil wasn't in the movies and wait for it.....

[King Bear]

I get the impression that Grin is one of those annoying people who make a career out of being contraversial. His scathing, blunt extremism generates attention as it galvinises like-minded fanatics around him, and solicits responses from his targets who have to defend themselves from the shit-storm coming out of Grin's ass.

I enjoyed the responses, especially Abercrombie's. I could fully relate to Abercrombie's point that a straight, binary conflict between 'old' and 'new' fantasy is rubbish. Like Abercrombie, I sincerely enjoy both.

Like Abercrombie I believe that the new wave of more real, grittier fantasy is not about pissing on the past, but about energising a tired genre, moving on from LotRs rewrites. By the early 90s fantasy was really starting stagnate as a genre, trapped in a cage of cherished, largely Tolkienesque tropes that were crying out to be turned on their head.

These emotes to me represent how Grin would have us believe 'new' and 'old' fantasy relate to each other:

Yes, Abercrombie, Erikson and Bakker et al are locked in a life-and-death struggle with Tolkien and Howard. And what's more, are raping both of them. Squeal Tolkien, squeeeeal!

What Grin should propose is a constitution and bill of rights for fantasy:
1. Thou shalt always strive to emulate LotR's and Howard
2. Thine endings shalt never be unhappy ones. Things always turn out for the best in fantasy land.
3. Thou must ensure the 'bad guys' never win
4. Thou must never subvert classic fantasy tropes. Even in a poignant and intellectual way. Even if it means the genre becomes
a bland, pointless parody of itself....
50. IF YOU VIOLATE ANY CLAUSE YOU ARE SHITTING ON OUR MYTHIC HERITAGE AND ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILISATION YOU DICK.

Did anyone notice that Grin's article is 'to be continued...'

I'm betting he'll respond to Abercrombie, Bakker and the others in part 2.

This post has been edited by Bombur: 17 February 2011 - 04:58 AM

[King Bear]

Stalker, on 17 February 2011 - 03:22 AM, said:

Quote

I am a HUGE fan of Terry Goodkind's 'Sword of Truth' novels. The books are each good, though some are better than others, but they all feed into the greater story arc. Goodkind's ability to find the voice of each character helps with their development and, most of all, they act like Adults!

That Goodkind's story is a fantasy exposition on Ayn Rand's Objectivism only helps me connect with the story, with 'Faith of the Fallen' being, by and way, my favorite of the series. I re-read it about once a year and always come away with some new insight and truth.

The fantasy genre is not dead, it's simply bloated, infested with insects and parasites but it's good heart still beats and if you look hard enough, there is still glorious life within it.

Saw this on the read through the article and comments. Just wanted to let everyone know that Goodkind is breathing glorious life into the genre.

But on a serious note, I agree with HD. This article has no effect on me, I don't care what the author thinks and I don't agree with his opinion. I'm willing to bet he hasn't read much or any of MBotF, or more recently, The Heroes, yet uses them as examples to make a point for how modern fantasy is in a downward spiral. Instead, he chooses to quote reviews on amazon. I can randomly find any product on there and find a negative review about it. In fact, DoD had 31 reviews. Of those, there were no 1 star reviews and only three 2 star reviews, where his expert opinion against the series comes from.

I feel bad for the guy though, because he is missing out with Abercrombie, SE, Jordan, etc.

Yeah DOD currently has 4 and a 1/2 stars on amazon. People hate it.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Roldom, on 17 February 2011 - 02:36 AM, said:

mr Grin (which you have to admit would be a great character name in any book) looks at the world with rose tinted spectacles. He obviously hasnt read all of Tolkiens work, and after just a cursiory glance at the material, has decided he is an expert. in the silmirilian, by the time the noldor enter Beriland the Valor are basicly leave them to die and suffer untill an elf goes back begging for help. The elves dwarves and men nearly defeat melkor, but fail because one of the human tribes betrays everyone else. Orcs are a race of tourtured mutalated elves.

The themes of betrayl, slaiughter and tragedy are found throughout all fantasy. Maybe theres a little more cussings these days, but thats also true of society. It adds to the realsim. Imagine youve just spotted a thousand angry warriors riding down on you, your not likely to say "oh poot!"

my thoughts exactly. this guys head is in the clouds and would rather not consider that without this modern sense of hygiene we've developed, life is dirty and disgusting, and war is always a gory hell. writing fantasy without acknowledging that is what we call childrens fantasy.

[MTS]

HoosierDaddy, on 17 February 2011 - 04:34 AM, said:

The really sad part is that he politicized into an "us" versus "them" mentality that is far removed from the truth. I loved The Lord of the Rings when I read them, and yet here I am in one of the "child of middle class parents, liberal, college graduate's" (paraphrased, I think) forum.

I can read Sanderson and not notice the lack of sex or cursing because I like the story and prose. I can also read Erikson and not notice the cursing because I like the story and prose.

He can keep his "them" versus "us" mentality away from me. Hell, if I randomly saw him I'd talk LotR with him and never even care that he thinks my favorite authors are somehow corrupting my favorite genre.

I'd just tell him thank god Tom Bombadil wasn't in the movies and wait for it.....

Exactly. What's rather funny is that he's engaging in the very elitism he likely despises among 'middle-class, college-educated liberals.' I don't know why he's shitting on middle-class, college graduates in order to make this point either, since he's clearly one as well. I think it's also wrong to call anyone who decides to challenge established fantasy norms a liberal. I can't write something new and be a conservative politically? Ridiculous.

Also, he can't comment on modern fantasy if he's not a wide reader of the genre. He's citing Amazon reviews to substantiate his argument, ffs! I don't think he realises that Erikson, Stover, Abercrombie et al. aren't wallowing in the darkest pits of human experience just for the sake of it, they're using that dark reality to make a point about our own humanity and how we respond to such things, and it's not always pleasant. There's not always an Aragorn fighting for the noble good, or a Legolas and Gimli overcoming racial differences to form a close bond. That doesn't make it any less 'real', and it doesn't disrespect the Tolkienesque forms of fantasy to depict it that way. His idea of a great fantasy epic is 'the elevated prose poetry, mythopoeic subcreation, and thematic richness that only the best fantasy achieves, and that echoes in important particulars the myths and fables of old.' I may be an unabashed fan (and thus biased), but the first thing that came into my head was 'how is that not the Malazan Book of the Fallen?!'

It's also telling that he doesn't cite any of the works that followed Tolkien, like Lieber, or even his contemporary C.S. Lewis, who I would argue was just as successful as Tolkien or Howard in fulfilling Grin's checklist for a great fantasy epic. He's got a very blinkered view of what fantasy should be, and anything doesn't subscribe to that is just trash and even (and this is where it gets the most ridiculous) indicative of the liberal destruction of our great moral values.

[King Bear]

Agreed @MST that Grin's idea of a fantasy epic fits tMBotF well. Shame Grin never bothered to read it, but instead relied on reader reviews from amazon. Not all the reader reviews mind you, just the two negative (2-star) ones. Did he not notice the 20 something glowing reviews? Oh wait, of course not, because he had decided before the fact that tMBotF was rubbish and was looking for opinions that would back his presumption up. Anything that betrayed his presumption was not worth noting.

Edit: and not worth noting also because anyone who liked DOD must be a scheming, left-wing liberal complicit in the debasement of civilisation.

I guess that's us boys and girls. The barbarian hordes massing on our malazan forum on the edge of civilised fantasy, poised to break out at any time and under the banner of our war-chief SE sweep away whatever remains of the shining cities of Middle-Earth and Hyborea.

This post has been edited by Bombur: 17 February 2011 - 07:36 AM

[RodeoRanch]

Sounds like Leo Grin is a butt-head.

Yeah I busted out butt-head just for him.

[JPK]

Bombur, on 17 February 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

Agreed @MST that Grin's idea of a fantasy epic fits tMBotF well. Shame Grin never bothered to read it, but instead relied on reader reviews from amazon. Not all the reader reviews mind you, just the two negative (2-star) ones. Did he not notice the 20 something glowing reviews? Oh wait, of course not, because he had decided before the fact that tMBotF was rubbish and was looking for opinions that would back his presumption up. Anything that betrayed his presumption was not worth noting.

Edit: and not worth noting also because anyone who liked DOD must be a scheming, left-wing liberal complicit in the debasement of civilisation.

I guess that's us boys and girls. The barbarian hordes massing on our malazan forum on the edge of civilised fantasy, poised to break out at any time and under the banner of our war-chief SE sweep away whatever remains of the shining cities of Middle-Earth and Hyborea.

I'll start mixing the paint for the death masks...

[Hetan]

Thanks for the laugh guys. I guess I won't be taking that gentleman seriously.
Such a blinkered attitude to a genre that is endlessly evolving is of itself nihilistic. Thou shalt read nothing but Tolkien, Howard and.... Goodkind?
If you don't like fantasy - or only a limited amount, fair enough, no-one makes you read anything you don't want to, but why diss those who choose to write and those who read, in that genre?
Is this a small cry for attention or a massive cry for help? Does he think he's not getting enough press or something?

If only for the laugh, I look forward to part 2.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Wert, Bakker and Abercrombie have all answered to him. I particularly liked Abercrombie's answer.

Yeah, this guy really missed the point. Doesn't he know that Norse mythology, which was one of Tolkien's inspirations, was way darker and pessimist than any " gritty" fantasy series we have today.

[Tsundoku]

Obvious troll is obvious. Don't feed it.

Nothing to see here. Move along.